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Carl Fogel
Guest
Rick Onanian <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> On 29 Feb 2004 17:55:31 -0800, [email protected] (Carl Fogel) wrote:
> >There's an interesting section on how Japanese and U.S. hard anodizing differs at the very
> >end of:
> >
> > http://www.bikepro.com/products/metals/alum.html
>
> Just a few minutes ago, catching up on this thread, I read this message:
> http://groups.google.com/groups?&selm=veO0c.25457%246K.16459%40nwrddc02.gnilink.net
>
> I guess this sarcasm isn't so preposterous after all: Matt O'Toole wrote :Gee, which type of
> anodizing adds more :rigidity, Japanese or French? Maybe Italian, where they age the rims in the
> :wine cellar, alongside the salamis, and tubular tires...
Dear Rick,
Actually, it doesn't seem to be very well-informed sarcasm.
Despite what was said in the post that you cite, the anodizing process increases the weight of the
piece being anodized, unless I've badly misunderstood basic chemistry--no aluminum is removed, but a
layer of aluminum is being oxidized, and dye is often being added. The increase in weight is small,
but easily noted when the pieces are weighed.
The difference between U.S. and Japanese anodizing techniques described by the BikePro catalogue may
no longer exist, or there may be even more differences among a wider range of rim makers.
In any case, the use of different preparation steps, different acids, and different dyes may have a
noticeable effect. In the current thread on track glue, John Everett gives a link to a study that
shows that all the glues preferred one kind of anodizing over another, clear versus hard, depending
on the glue manufacturer:
http://www.engr.ukans.edu/~ktl/bicycle/Cusa1.pdf
Something about the different glues works better with different kinds of anodizing--possibly the
dyes, maybe the kind of acid used, perhaps the temperature, voltage, or preparation. The difference
may extend to other things, like corrosion and fatigue problems.
Frankly, I'm baffled by posts claiming that various well-documented anodizing processes don't even
exist, that the different techniques cannot have any effect, and that detailed tables are somehow
utterly mistaken.
As I pointed out elsewhere in this thread, the only other weight table so far mentioned is Damon
Rinard's admirable effort, but its rim section is clearly inferior to the BikePro table.
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/weights.htm
http://www.bikepro.com/products/rims/rimtables.html
Damon innocently lumped together what are actually three kinds of MA2 rims, for example, and gave
the misleading impression that their weight varies from about 444 to 480 grams, a 10% variation. The
BikePro catalogue breaks the MA2 weights down into the three sub-categories that account for the
variation, spoke eyelets that are 2-piece (464), double-wall (473), or stainless steel (485).
Differences in drilling (32-36-40) and brake-area wear might account for the other differences in
Damon's haphazard sample, as well as his use of two different scales over several years.
Again, I should add that I'd have weighed rims just as trustingly (and not nearly as well) as Damon
did. Does anyone know of a better rim-weight table than the BikePro table, which unfortunately
stopped about ten years ago? Something, perhaps from some magazine devoted to reviewing bicycles?
Carl Fogel
> On 29 Feb 2004 17:55:31 -0800, [email protected] (Carl Fogel) wrote:
> >There's an interesting section on how Japanese and U.S. hard anodizing differs at the very
> >end of:
> >
> > http://www.bikepro.com/products/metals/alum.html
>
> Just a few minutes ago, catching up on this thread, I read this message:
> http://groups.google.com/groups?&selm=veO0c.25457%246K.16459%40nwrddc02.gnilink.net
>
> I guess this sarcasm isn't so preposterous after all: Matt O'Toole wrote :Gee, which type of
> anodizing adds more :rigidity, Japanese or French? Maybe Italian, where they age the rims in the
> :wine cellar, alongside the salamis, and tubular tires...
Dear Rick,
Actually, it doesn't seem to be very well-informed sarcasm.
Despite what was said in the post that you cite, the anodizing process increases the weight of the
piece being anodized, unless I've badly misunderstood basic chemistry--no aluminum is removed, but a
layer of aluminum is being oxidized, and dye is often being added. The increase in weight is small,
but easily noted when the pieces are weighed.
The difference between U.S. and Japanese anodizing techniques described by the BikePro catalogue may
no longer exist, or there may be even more differences among a wider range of rim makers.
In any case, the use of different preparation steps, different acids, and different dyes may have a
noticeable effect. In the current thread on track glue, John Everett gives a link to a study that
shows that all the glues preferred one kind of anodizing over another, clear versus hard, depending
on the glue manufacturer:
http://www.engr.ukans.edu/~ktl/bicycle/Cusa1.pdf
Something about the different glues works better with different kinds of anodizing--possibly the
dyes, maybe the kind of acid used, perhaps the temperature, voltage, or preparation. The difference
may extend to other things, like corrosion and fatigue problems.
Frankly, I'm baffled by posts claiming that various well-documented anodizing processes don't even
exist, that the different techniques cannot have any effect, and that detailed tables are somehow
utterly mistaken.
As I pointed out elsewhere in this thread, the only other weight table so far mentioned is Damon
Rinard's admirable effort, but its rim section is clearly inferior to the BikePro table.
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/weights.htm
http://www.bikepro.com/products/rims/rimtables.html
Damon innocently lumped together what are actually three kinds of MA2 rims, for example, and gave
the misleading impression that their weight varies from about 444 to 480 grams, a 10% variation. The
BikePro catalogue breaks the MA2 weights down into the three sub-categories that account for the
variation, spoke eyelets that are 2-piece (464), double-wall (473), or stainless steel (485).
Differences in drilling (32-36-40) and brake-area wear might account for the other differences in
Damon's haphazard sample, as well as his use of two different scales over several years.
Again, I should add that I'd have weighed rims just as trustingly (and not nearly as well) as Damon
did. Does anyone know of a better rim-weight table than the BikePro table, which unfortunately
stopped about ten years ago? Something, perhaps from some magazine devoted to reviewing bicycles?
Carl Fogel