Max HR too high to use for HR Training

[DirtTurtle]

Simple question guys, appreciate any valid replies i receive. I have been racing for about a year, recently gotten a HR monitor to aid in training and race analysis etc. For my age(21) i think the average max HR is about 197 through rough formula, of course i have only hit about 191-194 through training without that extra incentive to push myself. Now in a crit the other week with a decent climb for the circuit(my first race with monitor), i hit 212 bpm Max HR, this being with little race fitness. I am simply asking the question if this HR is a bit too high to plug in the monitor to use for my training zones, or should i use to figure to be training accurately?

 

[Geoff Vadar]

Ignore both numbers. Forget training zones for now. Ride your bike and race. Record your data. Evaluate after a month. Settle on a figure with some data under your belt.

Or just race with a $14 computer like me and dont record any data.

Or buy a power meter like everyone else and record everything.

Either way you will get spit out of the bunch roughly at the same point of the race commensurate to your natural ability.

Ignore everything I say.

 

[wiredued]

FWIW I think your average heart rate for a 1 hour time trial is more useful seeing it would be the high limit for sweet spot training. I think this formula I am experimenting with would give you a rough high(100%FTP) and low(76%FTP) limit for SST.

Take 182(for Low Limit)/206(for High Limit)
Subtract your age
Now adjust these numbers based on your fitness.

If you do no working out subtract 10 beats
If you workout 1-2 times a week subtract 5 beats
If you workout 3-4 times a week leave the numbers as they are.
If you workout 5 or more times a week and have done so for a year or more, then add 5 beats to the numbers.

If you are about 60 years old or older or if you are about 20 years old or younger, add an additional 5 beats to the adjusted numbers.

Simple question guys, appreciate any valid replies i receive. I have been racing for about a year, recently gotten a HR monitor to aid in training and race analysis etc. For my age(21) i think the average max HR is about 197 through rough formula, of course i have only hit about 191-194 through training without that extra incentive to push myself. Now in a crit the other week with a decent climb for the circuit(my first race with monitor), i hit 212 bpm Max HR, this being with little race fitness. I am simply asking the question if this HR is a bit too high to plug in the monitor to use for my training zones, or should i use to figure to be training accurately?

 

[Piotr]

Simple question guys, appreciate any valid replies i receive. I have been racing for about a year, recently gotten a HR monitor to aid in training and race analysis etc. For my age(21) i think the average max HR is about 197 through rough formula, of course i have only hit about 191-194 through training without that extra incentive to push myself. Now in a crit the other week with a decent climb for the circuit(my first race with monitor), i hit 212 bpm Max HR, this being with little race fitness. I am simply asking the question if this HR is a bit too high to plug in the monitor to use for my training zones, or should i use to figure to be training accurately?

The "220 - age" formula is not accurate. I'm 41, but I hit 203 easily at 39 y.o. (last time I checked my HR). Your max. heartrate will be higher when you're fresh, e.g. coming off a layoff (like when I tested it), and lower when training and racing mid-season (most of the time). Barring training with power, using your perceived exertion (PE) and cross-checking against your threshold HR will be the best way to determine your training zones. Around these parts, we define threshold (or FTP - Functional Threshold Power) as a riding intensity that you can sustain for 1 hr when relatively fresh and highly motivated.

Even with a similar PE and power output your HR can vary somewhat based on diet and environmental factors (coffee, sleep, stress, temperature, beginning vs. end of ride). That's why I said "cross-checking" not "strictly following" HR. How you feel (PE) when riding is a better indicator of intensity than your HR. Sometimes you'll feel like ripping the cranks off and you'll be selling yourself short by limiting that effort based on an elevated heartrate. Other times, when fatigued you'll be compelled to push too hard to achieve a certain heartrate and end up digging yourself a deeper hole.

I hope that was at least a semi-valid reply.

 

[daveryanwyoming]

... How you feel (PE) when riding is a better indicator of intensity than your HR. Sometimes you'll feel like ripping the cranks off and you'll be selling yourself short by limiting that effort based on an elevated heartrate. Other times, when fatigued you'll be compelled to push too hard to achieve a certain heartrate and end up digging yourself a deeper hole....

+1 on this post.

If you must base your training levels on HR, then at least base them on the HR you achieve for the second half of a long hard interval or time trial. Not your max HR and definitely not your theoretical max HR based on the 220-age formula. Based on that formula my max HR would be 173 at 47 years of age. I regularly break 190 during hard races. That formula just doesn't work very well for a lot of us.

But I'm with Piotr, use perceived exertion to pace your training efforts with the goal of holding your best steady effort for the target duration. The target duration depends on what system you're trying to train such as:

- 1-2 minutes for Anaerobic Capacity work
- 3-6 minutes for VO2 Max work
- 10-30 minutes for Threshold (long TT and raising FTP) work
- 30 minutes - 2 hours for Tempo work
- > 2 hours for endurance work.

So if I was doing L4 work targeting a raise in FTP I'd do something like the popular 2x20 interval sets very close to my maximum (at least 90%) pace for each interval. You don't need HR to pace those, just ride a solid steady effort for 20 minutes. If you can't finish the 20 minutes then back off before trying your next effort. If it feels too easy then increase the pace a bit but try to hold it steady almost like a time trial backed off just enough to finish the desired number of intervals.

I train with a power meter, but realistically I do exactly what I just described and don't ride down the road with my eyes glued to the PM display. I look at the data after my ride and it tells me things about my fitness, freshness, how I'm progressing, whether my pacing is steady but I don't stare at the numbers while riding the intervals.

You could use HR in a similar manner, at least for the longer efforts in the 20 minute range and longer if you want data to review. Your HR should take 5 to 8 minutes to reach the average for the effort and continue to climb more slowly all the way to the end of the effort. Efforts to get the HR up to "zone" right away mean you're starting too hard and won't be able to finish without backing off. A flat HR curve for the second half of an effort usually means you're subconsciously backing off as the interval progresses. The steep startup curve and flatter HR drift as the interval progresses is a good sign of steady pacing.

I've attached a screenshot showing HR, Speed, and Power for a pretty standard 20 minute interval ridden outdoors on variable terrain but with relatively steady average power. Look at the HR curve and see how it behaves during the effort. If you are going to pace with HR then allow for the startup curve at the beginning of the effort (don't try to get into zone too quickly) and allow for the continued drift till the end of the effort (don't back off your effort to hold you HR to an arbitrary average).

Good luck,
-Dave

 

[DirtTurtle]

@ Geoff Vadar dont use HR monitor for racing as such, just had it on out of pure curiosity.

As for the others, i appreciate the comments, and will take action on these accordingly. As for HR training itself, i do not delve into it 2 much and this is why i have a lack of knowledge in the area. At the current time, i keep it in on for training just to simply 'see' what my body does during a workout by using HR, very interesting to see those fluctuations day to day as you have stated, some days the heart rate is very laggy/repsonsive, or also high/low for the same circuit. I antipate on doing more HR training this winter on the trainer to account for bad weather, and thats why i want a rough accurate HR to use for a bit of zone training. The 20*20 interval tips are quite usefull with seeing the graph, these are the only actual intervals i specically train for, and it seems i may be going a little too hard in the first few mins, did not know it takes 5-8 for the heartrate to stabalise (altough i general do this by PE, but still require more passing early on).

 

[daveryanwyoming]

... i may be going a little too hard in the first few mins, did not know it takes 5-8 for the heartrate to stabalise (altough i general do this by PE, but still require more passing early on).

FWIW, RPE and HR dynamics at the start of a long steady interval are pretty similar. IOW, the way that HR takes 5-8 minutes to come up to average is reflected by RPE that starts feeling much too easy, starts feeling a bit harder and by minute 7 or 8 you know you're solidly in a Threshold effort.

If you're doing indoor work on a trainer then wheel speed measured on your cycling computer is a good proxy for power. So try to hold a steady speed and they should feel pretty easy at the start and get progressively harder. By the fifth minute or so you should have a good idea of whether you chose the intensity well or whether you'll need to back off a bit to finish the effort. Try to dial in the intensity over time and with fitness changes so that you can complete the desired intervals at steady trainer speed (power) from beginning to end.

Good luck,
-Dave

 

[dkrenik]

+1

I used speed as a proxy for power on my rollers for several years before getting a PM. While not ideal, it's certainly better than relying upon HR. It also helped to calibrate my PE.

Dave

If you're doing indoor work on a trainer then wheel speed measured on your cycling computer is a good proxy for power. So try to hold a steady speed and they should feel pretty easy at the start and get progressively harder. By the fifth minute or so you should have a good idea of whether you chose the intensity well or whether you'll need to back off a bit to finish the effort. Try to dial in the intensity over time and with fitness changes so that you can complete the desired intervals at steady trainer speed (power) from beginning to end.

Good luck,
-Dave

 

[Aussie Steve]

Yeah I'm with the 47 year old fella breaks 190 bpm. I'm 47 too and 180 is normal for me at high intensity, i sometimes see 190 on a hill and I aint backing off until i hit the top. Funny thing is, pushing very hard into a head wind, on my limit (or so I think) i think i'm doing 185+ but look at the HRM and its typically 20 less than that; and I say "i aint got nuthin left !!". Not sure why it does that, raised the topic on this board a few years ago but forgot the responses.