Maximum Heart Rate increasing with fitness???

Discussion in 'Cycling Training' started by wilmar13, Sep 8, 2006.

  1. wilmar13

    wilmar13 New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2003
    Messages:
    1,551
    Likes Received:
    0
    I did a search and found nothing on this… I am having an argument/debate with a coworker (runner) about maximum HR. We both agree that with fitness increase the heart pumps more per stroke thus a lower resting HR and generally more efficient, but he claims that your max HR goes up as well. I disagree but can find no information to dispute this, other than to argue that intuitively this would only happen if the heart’s pumping volume were the limiting factor in the blood/oxygen delivery system during maximal effort. Seems based on my own experience that max HR is lower with increased fitness, but that is only N=1. Can anyone provide some insight into who is correct here, or is it a classic case of “it depends”?

    FWIW I train based on power and don’t care much about HR, but since he is a runner he has (or knows of) no alternative but to use HR based training programs.
     
    Tags:


  2. Bobby Lex

    Bobby Lex New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2004
    Messages:
    121
    Likes Received:
    0
    You don't have to prove anything to him....make him prove his "hypothesis" to you.

    Bob

    P.S. He's wrong, BTW, but I can't point out any literature to prove it. I have read Joe Friel's Cyclist's Training Bible, and Chris Carmichael's Ultimate Ride, and Ed Burke's Serious Cycling. Two of these authors have Phd's or Masters degrees. None of them mentions that maximum heart rate goes up with improved fitness.
     
  3. wilmar13

    wilmar13 New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2003
    Messages:
    1,551
    Likes Received:
    0
    But they don’t say it doesn’t either. It is common knowledge that resting HR will decrease and general efficiency increases as fitness improves, but I was at a loss to disprove Max HR will not increase. Is it possible that it does (even if only in some people)? I am an engineer not an exercise physiologist, but I suppose it could be possible if the hearts pumping rate were the limiting factor in the blood delivery system; i.e. gains in the other components were greater than the gains in heart pumping efficiency, thereby making the heart pumping capacity the limiting factor leaving only stroke frequency to increase total volume pumped/unit time.

    What actually determines maximum heart rate physiologically?
     
  4. Bobby Lex

    Bobby Lex New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2004
    Messages:
    121
    Likes Received:
    0
    Same as what actually determines maximum height, or eye color, or skin color.....GENETICS.

    Bob

    P.S. Like I said, don't feel you need to disprove his argument. Make him cite an authority which supports him.
     
  5. ric_stern/RST

    ric_stern/RST New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2002
    Messages:
    3,866
    Likes Received:
    1
    maximum heart rate tends to decrease with increased fitness.

    however, in some people who move from e.g., running to cycling it may well go up for two reasons

    1) peripheral fatigue could occur in the legs in say a trained runner moving to cycling when they haven't done much cycling. when they are (cycling) fitter they're better able to cope with the pain and may be able to pedal harder (and hence a higher HR)

    2) trained runners are likely to be able to generate a higher VO2max and HR running compared to the same person cycling. As you become a trained cyclist you can generate 100 - 106% of running VO2max and HR, as there are modality dependent HRmax

    ric
     
  6. wilmar13

    wilmar13 New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2003
    Messages:
    1,551
    Likes Received:
    0
    That is dismissive of my intellectual curiosity. I am looking for the exact factors/parameters (or genetic differences) responsible to create the condition. By understanding this I will have a higher confidence (or doubt) that max HR does not increase as maximal effort output increases.

    Yes but he can take the same stance thus the stalemate.
     
  7. wilmar13

    wilmar13 New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2003
    Messages:
    1,551
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yeah that makes sense, but the debate we have is limited to generalities around fitness here, so lets limit it to physiological changes within the same sport. I.e. untrained person begins a running program, gets faster and stronger, etc. and then at maximal effort (running) his Max HR has increased vs where it was when he was an untrained athlete. This does not happen does it?
     
  8. wh0areume

    wh0areume New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2006
    Messages:
    89
    Likes Received:
    0
    I cant speak for running, but doing cycling only and getting in shape, my max hr has gone down quite a bit.
    I'm basing this off of my polar fit-test.

    At the beginning of this season (after taking a fall/winter off completely), it said my maxHR was 194bpm, now 6 months later it's 188 with a higher VO2max.
     
  9. ric_stern/RST

    ric_stern/RST New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2002
    Messages:
    3,866
    Likes Received:
    1
    it could happen. In an untrained state, without sufficient motivation and understanding on the part of the 'athlete' they may not get to max. Either they could stop early thinking it was sufficient pain (and still score 10 or whatever on a RPE scale) or be concerned they were going to have some sort of cardiac episode.

    however, if they truly get to max (as a non-athlete) it's most likely that HRmax would either decrease or stay the same as they got fitter.

    ric
     
  10. graphixgeek

    graphixgeek New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2006
    Messages:
    186
    Likes Received:
    0
  11. hood

    hood New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2012
    Messages:
    1
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hi I'm a undegraduate Exercise Science student and Max HR is determined by 220-age, therefore max HR decreases as you age and does not increase due to fitness.
     
  12. ric_stern/RST

    ric_stern/RST New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2002
    Messages:
    3,866
    Likes Received:
    1
    Really? Is max HR *really* determined by 220-age?
     
  13. swampy1970

    swampy1970 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2008
    Messages:
    10,057
    Likes Received:
    185
    ... And lactate levels increase with breast feeding? I think you need to pay more attention in class. Either that or your significant other is a graduate and you like being on the bottom.
     
    steve6690 likes this.
  14. Dave Cutter

    Dave Cutter Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2012
    Messages:
    603
    Likes Received:
    27
    When I started cycling I got a HR Monitor to help reduce the odds of me dropping dead from heart failure. I was old, fat, and out of shape and had recently quit smoking. The watch [I bought] directions gave me my MAX HR based on the 220 - age calculation. If I remember correctly.... I had to get my HR up above something like 75% of max to be in the range where my body would burn some of my excess body fat.

    At first.... it was very difficult to get and STAY above about 75%, It was difficult ONLY because I would be winded and tired.... I could get to 70% by merely walking to the kitchen to make a sandwich. But... it took months of cycling to get where I started to accidentally get in the excessive range (80 some %). A couple times.... after months of training.... when I felt I was pushing hard I checked the monitor and had exceed 100% (once 110%).

    Did I increase my MAX HR? I don't know.... would I have dropped dead if I had reached 110% months earlier? Not likely. The MAX is just an average calculation... nothing more. As a person gets fitter... they are much more likely to allow themselves to reach the arbitrary figure... as it doesn't hurt (as much). But... then again.... I could have NEVER reached 110% when I was a smoking fat man ether.... even if my life had depended on it.
     
  15. An old Guy

    An old Guy Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2011
    Messages:
    1,380
    Likes Received:
    21
    What is more important is that heart rate at the same power output falls as your fitness improves.

    It is difficult to know if maximal heart rate changes with changes in condition. But it is known that the maximum attainanable heart rate changes with changes in condition.

    ---

    Your friend, the runner, can train with power. Running on a track at constant speed (for longer distances) or at constant time (sprints) would be best described as power based. Even timed hill climbs will be power based.
     
  16. Dr Lodge

    Dr Lodge New Member

    Joined:
    May 3, 2012
    Messages:
    109
    Likes Received:
    2
    Well you're gonna fail class. I'm 45 and my max heart rate is 185 - that's the maximum its been.
     
  17. jpr95

    jpr95 Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2010
    Messages:
    870
    Likes Received:
    30
    I seem to recall from my health classes so many years ago that "Max HR" was more like "Max SUGGESTED HR"--as in, "don't let it go above that", not, "It will never go above that". And, the formula was 220-age. It was also mainly to find a beneficial aerobic HR range, like 60-80% of maximum as a target workout zone.
     
  18. Monroe71

    Monroe71 New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2012
    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    0
    That's an often used rule of thumb but it's misleading as of course your max HR is determined by a range of factors beyond just your age. Genetic, environment, illness/fitness history...
     
  19. ric_stern/RST

    ric_stern/RST New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2002
    Messages:
    3,866
    Likes Received:
    1
    when replying to people it may be of use to check who they are. <whoosh> ;-)
     
  20. bobqzzi

    bobqzzi New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2012
    Messages:
    25
    Likes Received:
    0
    Did for me. I think it is reasonably common. I think it could be a factor of being able to stay at max output for longer. I started around 168, now can see 176.
     
Loading...
Loading...