Maximum slope?

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by George, Jun 5, 2003.

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  1. George

    George Guest

    Hi there, What do you think, what is the maximum slope on a road, which is possible to overcome on a
    bike? If I remember well on the Vuelta the max slope of some mountain stages was up till 23%. Is it
    the maximum, or a man can overcome the higher slope? Maybe The Guiness Book of Records notes some
    those records? Thanks for any reply, George.
     
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  2. Terry Morse

    Terry Morse Guest

    George wrote:

    > Hi there, What do you think, what is the maximum slope on a road, which is possible to overcome on
    > a bike? If I remember well on the Vuelta the max slope of some mountain stages was up till 23%. Is
    > it the maximum, or a man can overcome the higher slope?

    This year's Giro d'Italia had one short section of 27%. Filbert St. in San Francisco is 31.5%. The
    steepest road in the world is in New Zealand, and it has been climbed by bicycle:

    http://scasagrande.tripod.com/NZ3b/
    --
    terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://www.terrymorse.com/bike/
     
  3. David Storm

    David Storm Guest

    "George" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > Hi there, What do you think, what is the maximum slope on a road, which is possible to overcome on
    > a bike? If I remember well on the Vuelta the max slope of some mountain stages was up till 23%. Is
    > it the maximum, or a man can overcome the higher
    slope?
    > Maybe The Guiness Book of Records notes some those records? Thanks for any reply, George.
    >

    We've measured 25-26% on Mix Canyon Road (also called Top of the World) by Vacaville, CA (measured
    with Specialized inclinometer). For all but the fittest racers a triple is mandatory to reach top.
    Even then it's difficult to maintain enough speed to remain upright.

    I haven't a clue, though, what record is on road bike.
     
  4. Mark Janeba

    Mark Janeba Guest

    George wrote:
    > Hi there, What do you think, what is the maximum slope on a road, which is possible to overcome on
    > a bike? If I remember well on the Vuelta the max slope of some mountain stages was up till 23%. Is
    > it the maximum, or a man can overcome the higher slope? Maybe The Guiness Book of Records notes
    > some those records?

    In Los Angeles (Calif) there is "Fargo Street". The Los Angeles Wheelmen report it is 33% (for one
    long block). This street is near Dodger Stadium.

    In the 80's (and maybe still) the Wheelmen had an (annual?) contest to see who could get up it. A
    free embroidered patch was offered to the successful. "Spotters" on foot were enlisted to catch
    people falling over. (Don't try putting a foot down on the "low" side!)

    The common technique was to tack across the street, limiting the full grade to the turns at the end
    of each tack.

    In this mode, lots of people get up it. I got my tandem up, after destroying an early-model Phil hub
    and also a freewheel.

    Now how steep a grade could one include in a normal pro race without absurd results, that's a
    different question.

    Regards,
    --
    Mark Janeba remove antispam phrase in address to reply
     
  5. Peter

    Peter Guest

    George wrote:
    > Hi there, What do you think, what is the maximum slope on a road, which is possible to overcome on
    > a bike? If I remember well on the Vuelta the max slope of some mountain stages was up till 23%. Is
    > it the maximum, or a man can overcome the higher slope? Maybe The Guiness Book of Records notes
    > some those records?

    The steepest streets in San Francisco are reported to have a 31% grade and can be ridden on a
    bicycle with proper gearing. Baldwin St. in Dunedin, NZ is reported to be 42% - anybody here
    ridden up that?
     
  6. "Peter" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > George wrote:
    > > Hi there, What do you think, what is the maximum slope on a road, which is possible to overcome
    > > on a bike? If I remember well on the Vuelta the max slope of some mountain stages was up till
    > > 23%. Is it the maximum, or a man can overcome the higher
    slope?
    > > Maybe The Guiness Book of Records notes some those records?
    >
    > The steepest streets in San Francisco are reported to have a 31% grade and can be ridden on a
    > bicycle with proper gearing. Baldwin St. in Dunedin, NZ is reported to be 42% - anybody here
    > ridden up that?

    Nope on NZ, but I've done some climbs in the English Lake District that were signposted at 1 in 3,
    or 33%. Hardknot and Wrynose, if memory serves. Also there were others (Honister?) that were posted
    at 25%. I knew I was in for something when I saw the tourist buses were little six-wheel AWD things.
    I remember seeing a sign at the top of one of the descents saying "cyclists strongly advised to
    walk". I had to stop once just to give my hands (& brakes) a rest, since completely letting off the
    brakes would've had you up near 70mph in a flash, with no way to slow down enough to make the turns.
    Whenever I tried to brake aggressively, the rear wheel kept wanting to float. Very disconcerting,
    and made for a memorable moment or two!
     
  7. Jobst Brandt

    Jobst Brandt Guest

    Terry Morse writes:

    >> What do you think, what is the maximum slope on a road, which is possible to overcome on a bike?
    >> If I remember well on the Vuelta the max slope of some mountain stages was up till 23%. Is it the
    >> maximum, or a man can overcome the higher slope?

    > This year's Giro d'Italia had one short section of 27%. Filbert St. in San Francisco is 31.5%. The
    > steepest road in the world is in New Zealand, and it has been climbed by bicycle:

    > http://scasagrande.tripod.com/NZ3b/

    Interesting. I'm not sure what to believe. The rider in the picture is neither in a position of
    great forceful climbing nor is his equipment up to the task. It seems this is a posed static shot or
    the hill is not as steep as claimed. It's hard to tell from an in-line photo. The text is also not
    encouraging since 38 degrees is not even walkable, feet facing forward, However, the walking people
    have their feet flat on the road. The ankle of the average human cannot approach that angle. Filbert
    street uses stairs for pedestrians at 31.5%, this road is 79%. I don't believe it, at least not for
    the portion of the road shown. The rider in the picture should do an end-over just holding the rear
    brake at this inclination, standing as he is.

    # We hopped a bus down to Dunedin (we've seen the east coast before), and found the famous Baldwin
    # Street hill, noted in the Guinness Book of World Records as the steepest road in the world at
    # 1:1.266, or an astounding 38 degrees. Stairs climb the hill on the sides, and people can get a
    # certificate for just walking up the thing.

    Where are the real figures?

    Jobst Brandt [email protected] Palo Alto CA
     
  8. Matt O'Toole

    Matt O'Toole Guest

    "Mark Janeba" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > George wrote:
    > > Hi there, What do you think, what is the maximum slope on a road,
    which is
    > > possible to overcome on a bike? If I remember well on the Vuelta the max slope of some
    mountain stages
    > > was up till 23%. Is it the maximum, or a man can
    overcome the higher slope?
    > > Maybe The Guiness Book of Records notes some those
    records?
    >
    > In Los Angeles (Calif) there is "Fargo Street". The Los
    Angeles
    > Wheelmen report it is 33% (for one long block). This
    street is near
    > Dodger Stadium.
    >
    > In the 80's (and maybe still) the Wheelmen had an
    (annual?) contest to
    > see who could get up it. A free embroidered patch was
    offered to the
    > successful. "Spotters" on foot were enlisted to catch
    people falling
    > over. (Don't try putting a foot down on the "low" side!)
    >
    > The common technique was to tack across the street,
    limiting the full
    > grade to the turns at the end of each tack.
    >
    > In this mode, lots of people get up it. I got my tandem
    up, after
    > destroying an early-model Phil hub and also a freewheel.
    >
    > Now how steep a grade could one include in a normal pro
    race without
    > absurd results, that's a different question.

    The "race" is still on, and was held March 16 this year, according to the LA Wheelmen's website.
    Here's another page, with a picture:

    http://home.attbi.com/~wymanburke/FargoStreet.html

    This page calls the neighborhood Silverlake but in fact it's Echo Park, which is famous for its
    hills. The big street running across the background is Glendale Bl. According to city surveyors,
    Fargo St. is actually the steepest, but there are many others in the neighborhood that are nearly as
    steep, and some are longer. Some might even be steeper for short stretches. The stretch of Fargo
    pictured there is a dead end, the top of the street ending in a stairway that goes to the actual top
    of the hill. The really interesting streets are actually on the other side of that hill, behind the
    photographer's vantage point. A couple of streets do go over the top of the hill, then another hill
    a few blocks away. Baxter St. is probably the most interesting -- the crest of the hill is so sharp
    it feels like falling off the end of the earth. Some of these streets have bad pavement, or even
    dirt, so bombing down the hills is probably not a good idea if you're not familiar with them.

    I encourage anyone visiting LA to explore Echo Park.

    Matt O.
     
  9. > Filbert St. in San Francisco is 31.5%.

    And I believe that the pro's race up that street each year on doubles.

    I have done a 30% grade (straight road for about 150m) on a road bike, it really is no big deal with
    low gears (I probably was using 28x30).
     
  10. Matt Locker

    Matt Locker Guest

    --------------070501080005010709050509 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

    Jobst:

    I think you should look at the photo again. Look at the houses in the distance. They are a long ways
    down a very short road. Look at the angle of the closest house on the right - which happens to be at
    the start of the "relatively flat" section. The lead person walking may be partially on his heel but
    is definitely climbing. The second person is entirely on her toes. The rider appears to be in her
    lowest granny gear. It also appears that she is just about to transition from a "relatively" flat
    section back into a steeper section of the climb - similar to the one that had been crested 50 or so
    yards before.

    MOO, Matt

    [email protected] wrote:

    >Terry Morse writes:
    >
    >
    >
    >>>What do you think, what is the maximum slope on a road, which is possible to overcome on a bike?
    >>>If I remember well on the Vuelta the max slope of some mountain stages was up till 23%. Is it the
    >>>maximum, or a man can overcome the higher slope?
    >>>
    >>>
    >
    >
    >
    >>This year's Giro d'Italia had one short section of 27%. Filbert St. in San Francisco is 31.5%. The
    >>steepest road in the world is in New Zealand, and it has been climbed by bicycle:
    >>
    >>
    >
    >
    >
    >>http://scasagrande.tripod.com/NZ3b/
    >>
    >>
    >
    >Interesting. I'm not sure what to believe. The rider in the picture is neither in a position of
    >great forceful climbing nor is his equipment up to the task. It seems this is a posed static shot
    >or the hill is not as steep as claimed. It's hard to tell from an in-line photo. The text is also
    >not encouraging since 38 degrees is not even walkable, feet facing forward, However, the walking
    >people have their feet flat on the road. The ankle of the average human cannot approach that angle.
    >Filbert street uses stairs for pedestrians at 31.5%, this road is 79%. I don't believe it, at least
    >not for the portion of the road shown. The rider in the picture should do an end-over just holding
    >the rear brake at this inclination, standing as he is.
    >
    ># We hopped a bus down to Dunedin (we've seen the east coast before), and found the famous Baldwin
    ># Street hill, noted in the Guinness Book of World Records as the steepest road in the world at
    ># 1:1.266, or an astounding 38 degrees. Stairs climb the hill on the sides, and people can get a
    ># certificate for just walking up the thing.
    >
    >Where are the real figures?
    >
    >Jobst Brandt [email protected] Palo Alto CA
    >
    >

    --------------070501080005010709050509 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

    <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"> <html> <head> <title></title>
    </head> <body> Jobst:<br> <br> I think you should look at the photo again. Look at the houses
    in the distance. They are a long ways down a very short road. Look at the angle of the
    closest house on the right - which happens to be at the start of the "relatively flat" section.
    The lead person walking may be partially on his heel but is definitely climbing. The
    second person is entirely on her toes. The rider appears to be in her lowest granny gear.
    It also appears that she is just about to transition from a "relatively" flat section back
    into a steeper section of the climb - similar to the one that had been crested 50 or so yards
    before. <br> <br> MOO,<br> Matt<br> <br> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
    href="mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a> wrote:<br>
    <blockquote type="cite" cite="midQ%25KDa.276$%[email protected]"> <pre wrap="">Terry
    Morse writes:

    </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">What do you think, what is
    the maximum slope on a road, which is possible to overcome on a bike? If I remember well on the
    Vuelta the max slope of some mountain stages was up till 23%. Is it the maximum, or a man can
    overcome the higher slope? </pre> </blockquote> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""><!----> </pre>
    <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">This year's Giro d'Italia had one short section of 27%.
    Filbert St. in San Francisco is 31.5%. The steepest road in the world is in New Zealand, and it
    has been climbed by bicycle: </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""><!----> </pre> <blockquote
    type="cite"> <pre wrap=""><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
    href="http://scasagrande.tripod.com/NZ3b/">http://scasagrande.tripod.com/NZ3b/</a> </pre>
    </blockquote> <pre wrap=""><!----> Interesting. I'm not sure what to believe. The rider in the
    picture is neither in a position of great forceful climbing nor is his equipment up to the task.
    It seems this is a posed static shot or the hill is not as steep as claimed. It's hard to tell
    from an in-line photo. The text is also not encouraging since 38 degrees is not even walkable,
    feet facing forward, However, the walking people have their feet flat on the road. The ankle of
    the average human cannot approach that angle. Filbert street uses stairs for pedestrians at
    31.5%, this road is 79%. I don't believe it, at least not for the portion of the road shown. The
    rider in the picture should do an end-over just holding the rear brake at this inclination,
    standing as he is.

    # We hopped a bus down to Dunedin (we've seen the east coast before), and found the famous Baldwin
    # Street hill, noted in the Guinness Book of World Records as the steepest road in the world at
    # 1:1.266, or an astounding 38 degrees. Stairs climb the hill on the sides, and people can get a
    # certificate for just walking up the thing.

    Where are the real figures?

    Jobst Brandt <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
    href="mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a> Palo Alto CA
    </pre> </blockquote> <br> </body> </html>

    --------------070501080005010709050509--
     
  11. Jobst Brandt

    Jobst Brandt Guest

    Matt Locker writes:

    >>>> What do you think, what is the maximum slope on a road, which is possible to overcome on a
    >>>> bike? If I remember well on the Vuelta the max slope of some mountain stages was up till 23%.
    >>>> Is it the maximum, or a man can overcome the higher slope?

    >>> This year's Giro d'Italia had one short section of 27%. Filbert St. in San Francisco is 31.5%.
    >>> The steepest road in the world is in New Zealand, and it has been climbed by bicycle:

    http://scasagrande.tripod.com/NZ3b/

    >> Interesting. I'm not sure what to believe. The rider in the picture is neither in a position of
    >> great forceful climbing nor is his equipment up to the task. It seems this is a posed static shot
    >> or the hill is not as steep as claimed. It's hard to tell from an in-line photo. The text is also
    >> not encouraging since 38 degrees is not even walkable, feet facing forward, However, the walking
    >> people have their feet flat on the road. The ankle of the average human cannot approach that
    >> angle. Filbert street uses stairs for pedestrians at 31.5%, this road is 79%. I don't believe it,
    >> at least not for the portion of the road shown. The rider in the picture should do an end-over
    >> just holding the rear brake at this inclination, standing as he is.

    # We hopped a bus down to Dunedin (we've seen the east coast before), and found the famous Baldwin
    # Street hill, noted in the Guinness Book of World Records as the steepest road in the world at
    # 1:1.266, or an astounding 38 degrees. Stairs climb the hill on the sides, and people can get a
    # certificate for just walking up the thing.

    >> Where are the real figures?

    > I think you should look at the photo again. Look at the houses in the distance. They are a long
    > ways down a very short road. Look at the angle of the closest house on the right - which happens
    > to be at the start of the "relatively flat" section. The lead person walking may be partially on
    > his heel but is definitely climbing. The second person is entirely on her toes. The rider appears
    > to be in her lowest granny gear. It also appears that she is just about to transition from a
    > "relatively" flat section back into a steeper section of the climb - similar to the one that had
    > been crested 50 or so yards before.

    I was sent an interesting URL that fits with my perception of steep streets:

    http://onenews.nzoom.com/onenews_detail/0,1227,164476-1-5,00.html

    I think that sums it up.

    Jobst Brandt [email protected] Palo Alto CA
     
  12. Matt O'Toole

    Matt O'Toole Guest

    <[email protected]> wrote in message news:zDNDa.305$%[email protected]...
    > Matt Locker writes:
    >
    > >>>> What do you think, what is the maximum slope on a
    road, which is
    > >>>> possible to overcome on a bike? If I remember well
    on the Vuelta
    > >>>> the max slope of some mountain stages was up till
    23%. Is it the
    > >>>> maximum, or a man can overcome the higher slope?
    >
    > >>> This year's Giro d'Italia had one short section of
    27%. Filbert
    > >>> St. in San Francisco is 31.5%. The steepest road in
    the world is
    > >>> in New Zealand, and it has been climbed by bicycle:
    >
    > http://scasagrande.tripod.com/NZ3b/
    >
    > >> Interesting. I'm not sure what to believe. The rider
    in the
    > >> picture is neither in a position of great forceful
    climbing nor is
    > >> his equipment up to the task. It seems this is a posed
    static shot
    > >> or the hill is not as steep as claimed. It's hard to
    tell from an
    > >> in-line photo. The text is also not encouraging since
    38 degrees
    > >> is not even walkable, feet facing forward, However, the
    walking
    > >> people have their feet flat on the road. The ankle of
    the average
    > >> human cannot approach that angle. Filbert street uses
    stairs for
    > >> pedestrians at 31.5%, this road is 79%. I don't
    believe it, at
    > >> least not for the portion of the road shown. The rider
    in the
    > >> picture should do an end-over just holding the rear
    brake at this
    > >> inclination, standing as he is.
    >
    > # We hopped a bus down to Dunedin (we've seen the east
    coast before),
    > # and found the famous Baldwin Street hill, noted in the
    Guinness Book
    > # of World Records as the steepest road in the world at
    1:1.266, or an
    > # astounding 38 degrees. Stairs climb the hill on the
    sides, and
    > # people can get a certificate for just walking up the
    thing.
    >
    > >> Where are the real figures?
    >
    > > I think you should look at the photo again. Look at the
    houses in
    > > the distance. They are a long ways down a very short
    road. Look at
    > > the angle of the closest house on the right - which
    happens to be at
    > > the start of the "relatively flat" section. The lead
    person walking
    > > may be partially on his heel but is definitely climbing.
    The second
    > > person is entirely on her toes. The rider appears to be
    in her
    > > lowest granny gear. It also appears that she is just
    about to
    > > transition from a "relatively" flat section back into a
    steeper
    > > section of the climb - similar to the one that had been
    crested 50
    > > or so yards before.
    >
    > I was sent an interesting URL that fits with my perception
    of steep
    > streets:
    >
    >
    http://onenews.nzoom.com/onenews_detail/0,1227,164476-1-5,00.html
    >
    > I think that sums it up.

    38 degrees is definately wrong. But 38 *percent* sounds reasonable.

    Matt O.
     
  13. Bill

    Bill Guest

    <[email protected]> wrote in message news:zDNDa.305$%[email protected]...
    > Matt Locker writes:
    >
    > >>>> What do you think, what is the maximum slope on a road, which is possible to overcome on a
    > >>>> bike? If I remember well on the Vuelta the max slope of some mountain stages was up till 23%.
    > >>>> Is it the maximum, or a man can overcome the higher slope?
    >
    > >>> This year's Giro d'Italia had one short section of 27%. Filbert St. in San Francisco is 31.5%.
    > >>> The steepest road in the world is in New Zealand, and it has been climbed by bicycle:
    >
    > http://scasagrande.tripod.com/NZ3b/
    >
    > >> Interesting. I'm not sure what to believe. The rider in the picture is neither in a position of
    > >> great forceful climbing nor is his equipment up to the task. It seems this is a posed static
    > >> shot or the hill is not as steep as claimed. It's hard to tell from an in-line photo. The text
    > >> is also not encouraging since 38 degrees is not even walkable, feet facing forward, However,
    > >> the walking people have their feet flat on the road. The ankle of the average human cannot
    > >> approach that angle. Filbert street uses stairs for pedestrians at 31.5%, this road is 79%. I
    > >> don't believe it, at least not for the portion of the road shown. The rider in the picture
    > >> should do an end-over just holding the rear brake at this inclination, standing as he is.
    >
    > # We hopped a bus down to Dunedin (we've seen the east coast before), and found the famous
    > # Baldwin Street hill, noted in the Guinness Book of World Records as the steepest road in the
    > # world at 1:1.266, or an astounding 38 degrees. Stairs climb the hill on the sides, and people
    > # can get a certificate for just walking up the thing.
    >
    > >> Where are the real figures?
    >
    > > I think you should look at the photo again. Look at the houses in the distance. They are a long
    > > ways down a very short road. Look at the angle of the closest house on the right - which happens
    > > to be at the start of the "relatively flat" section. The lead person walking may be partially on
    > > his heel but is definitely climbing. The second person is entirely on her toes. The rider
    > > appears to be in her lowest granny gear. It also appears that she is just about to transition
    > > from a "relatively" flat section back into a steeper section of the climb - similar to the one
    > > that had been crested 50 or so yards before.
    >
    > I was sent an interesting URL that fits with my perception of steep streets:
    >
    > http://onenews.nzoom.com/onenews_detail/0,1227,164476-1-5,00.html
    >
    > I think that sums it up.
    >
    > Jobst Brandt [email protected] Palo Alto CA

    From the above URL "Baldwin's steepest section is 19 degrees from horizontal. The figure in the
    guinness book of records says its 38 degrees which would make it near impossible to stand on,"
    Hamel says.

    19 degrees from horizontal is still steep. That's 34.4 percent grade. Seems like we're doing apples
    and oranges here. http://spokepost.com/tools/power/

    Bill Brannon
     
  14. Josh Gatts

    Josh Gatts Guest

    "Peter Headland" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > > Filbert St. in San Francisco is 31.5%.
    >
    > And I believe that the pro's race up that street each year on doubles.
    >

    Actually that's Fillmore Street, which is about 18%:

    http://www.chainreactionbicycles.com/sfgranprix.htm

    > I have done a 30% grade (straight road for about 150m) on a road bike, it really is no big deal
    > with low gears (I probably was using 28x30).

    I saw Lance riding up Fillmore on the big ring!

    --Josh
     
  15. Steepest street I know of is Fargo Street, in El Lay. 33% grade (34% at the top). You have to stand,
    regardless of how low your bottom gear is, just to keep your front wheel on the ground!

    the Los Angeles Wheelmen hold an anual hill climb there every February.

    May you have the wind at your back. And a really low gear for the hills! Chris

    Chris'Z Corner "The Website for the Common Bicyclist": http://www.geocities.com/czcorner
     
  16. Precious Pup

    Precious Pup Guest

    Peter Headland wrote:
    >
    > > Filbert St. in San Francisco is 31.5%.
    >
    > And I believe that the pro's race up that street each year on doubles.

    No, not Filbert, and yes, most use doubles. They race up Fillmore, which is about 17%, IIRC.
     
  17. Terry Morse

    Terry Morse Guest

    Jobst Brandt wrote:

    > > http://scasagrande.tripod.com/NZ3b/
    >
    > Interesting. I'm not sure what to believe. The rider in the picture is neither in a position of
    > great forceful climbing nor is his equipment up to the task. It seems this is a posed static shot
    > or the hill is not as steep as claimed. It's hard to tell from an in-line photo. The text is also
    > not encouraging since 38 degrees is not even walkable, feet facing forward, However, the walking
    > people have their feet flat on the road. The ankle of the average human cannot approach that
    > angle. Filbert street uses stairs for pedestrians at 31.5%, this road is 79%.
    >
    > Where are the real figures?

    I agree, there's no way that Baldwin Street is 38 degrees. If it were, the walkers would be on all
    fours. I think that's a bogus derived number, based on a typo. A 1:2.66 grade is more likely, which
    would put the grade at 37.6% (or 20.6 degrees). 37.6% rounds up to 38%.
    --
    terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://www.terrymorse.com/bike/
     
  18. In <[email protected]>, "Matt O'Toole" <[email protected]> opined:

    (SNIP - 90 lines of stuff WE ALL SAW THE FIRST TIME, just to add: )

    > 38 degrees is definately wrong. But 38 *percent* sounds reasonable.
    >
    > Matt O.

    Can nobody in this group trim anymore?

    --
    Dave Salovesh [email protected]
     
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