Maximum strength and cycling performance

Discussion in 'Cycling Training' started by dominikk85, Nov 7, 2012.

  1. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    The picture posted earlier cracks me up /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif

    I watched the Anna Meares video squatting 300+. Pretty impressive form. If I were coaching her I would like to see her go a little deeper on the squat rather than a partial rep, but still extremely impressive lift for her build. Especially since she did not use a wuss pad for her neck like the guy has in the picture above.

    _______________________

    For those insisting that squats will help you in cycling and you are determined to do them. Your form should look more like Anna's in the video and not like the picture posted above. Also another tip the neck pad used by the guy above is also partially responsible for bad form.

    What typically happens is the pad pushes the head forward and when the head is pushed forward the whole body wants to tip forward. Generally it causes the entire form to go wacky.

    Without the pad you can set the bar a little further down to where it sits even across the traps and shoulders. That will allow you to keep your head upright and squat more vertical without the feeling of tipping forward. In the picture he is trying to keep his eyes up, but at the same time his attempt to keep his head and eyes up he is fighting against the pad pushing his head forward. In Anna's video you can see her easily adjust her neck and head into proper position because there is not a pad interfering. It takes a little bit of time and consistency, but eventually the skin gets a calloused where the bar sits and people like me won't make fun of you using the pad. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif

    If Anna can tolerate setting an Olympic bar with 300+ on her neck for a few partial reps surely a guy can man up enough to have, what was that in the picture 40 lbs, on his neck long enough to snap a picture. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif
     


  2. ric_stern/RST

    ric_stern/RST New Member

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    I've skimmed most of this thread...

    but,

    Track races (or any races) that last more than 90-secs or criteriums are really *aerobic* events (the predominant metabolic pathways are aerobically derived) and so it's really bike training that improves these.

    However, the bigger issue is your incorrect thought that strength = power = watts. Firstly, power is watts (watts being the measure of power output). But, importantly, power is the product of *force* (applied tangentially) and velocity (e.g. wheel velocity and hub force in a power tap or crank velocity and force applied to the cranks in an srm) and not strength. Strength is the maximal force that is applied (and maximum force can only be applied at zero velocity) and thus, any force (other than a standing start) applied to the pedals will always be submaximal. If you can stand then you can generate significant force and the force required to excel at elite level cycling (e.g. winning a mountain time trial in say the tour de france requires an average force of about 26 kg between both legs, something that most adults can manage).

    ric
     
  3. An old Guy

    An old Guy Member

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    Like others who try to factor out one issue at the expense of the others, you are wrong.

    While you would measure measure strength prior to the mountain time trail, I would measure strength at the end of the mountain time trial. I am even happy to use any strength metric based on the entire time trial.

    Observe that you use "maximal strength" and I use "strength."

    The actual concept everyone avoids in their position is: Does your concept of "maximal strength" serve as a proxy for my concept of "strength?" In general, if one increases their "maximal strength," does their "strength" increase?

    I will put forth an anecdote.

    I was recovering from a car accident a couple years ago. Bicycling was difficult. At the start of ride I had a great deal of difficulty in doing 2 short steep climbs that are under 30 seconds (in total clearly under the 90 seconds stated in your comments). That was using a 36/30. I simply lacked the "strength" and "maximal strength" to turn the pedals. Still I could put in 2-3 hour rides at 70-80% FTP.

    A couple years later I can do those climbs in my 36/20 at the end of my rides. I still do 2-3 hour rides at 70-80% FTP. My FTP has not changed a great deal. It appears that an increase in "strength" has allowed me to get up that hill.

    It appears that after the accident I lacked the "maximal strength" and "strength" to do a TdF climb of any length. Now, I most likely have the "maximal strength" and "strength" to do most TdF climbs.

    ---

    I would say that most people lack the "maximal strength" to do many of the TdF climbs - Just set them on a bike in a 26/30 on a 15% climb and they will not move. So I don't even buy into your basic premise of 26Kg of force.
     
  4. An old Guy

    An old Guy Member

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    Like most people you draw the wrong conclusions.

    The correct conclusion to draw from your comments is that lifting weights like you do requires 2-3 days of recovery.

    ---

    Blacksmiths used to work all day long. They would pick up a small hammer and drop it all day long. French polishers also spent all day doing high rep low load muscle building. They both built up huge muscles in their one arm. They worked out everyday.

    That seems to indicate that one can build muscle with limited recovery.
     
  5. DanFox

    DanFox New Member

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    But surely if your maximal force is greater, then your submaximal force would also be greater?

    Also, is it not true that if you want to have a good sprint for example, having more strength in your legs is a good thing as you will be able to produce a higher wattage if only for a short time, even if it is submaximal force?
     
  6. ric_stern/RST

    ric_stern/RST New Member

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    i rest my case. thanks.
     
  7. ira41

    ira41 New Member

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    Yeah and at some point that blacksmith isn't building muscle from lifting the hammer all day long, unless they go with a bigger hammer or drop it a lot more in that day.
    For adaptation you have to stress beyond whats its used to in either volume or intensity.

    Sure its possible to lift weights in a manner that doesnt require any recovery at all, but lifting in that manner isnt going to lead to any adaptations.
     
  8. An old Guy

    An old Guy Member

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    My point was that you can build muscle without requiring 2-3 days of recovery. Had you ever seen a blacksmith or French polisher you would realize they got strong in the sense of being able to work hard all day long by showing up for work everyday and taking it easy.

    That is how bicyclists used to get stronger also. But now everyone wants quick results - lots of pain for a little gain. Not my training style.
     
  9. ric_stern/RST

    ric_stern/RST New Member

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    so, what you mean is endurance. not strength. lol.
     
  10. maydog

    maydog Well-Known Member

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    French Polisher? Sound like something I should try with the misses.

    Is this a safe term to look up at work?
     
  11. An old Guy

    An old Guy Member

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    No, I mean strength.

    If you took a person new to blacksmithing (or French polishing) and measured this strength, wsited a decade or so, and then remeasured, you would find that his "maximal strength" both at the beginning of the day and after work increased. I don't have a decade to wait or a decade's wages to pay to conduct the experiment, but you should feel free to do so. Be sure to report back.
     
  12. An old Guy

    An old Guy Member

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    It depends on where you look.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_polish
     
  13. ira41

    ira41 New Member

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    I am not sure it even matters, because once you answer the question of gaining strength the next logical question would be is it more strength than would be gained by just riding.

    I think its undeniable weight lifting will help build cycling power, I think the debate is will it build it better than riding, to that I think the answer is probablly no.
     
  14. tonyzackery

    tonyzackery Well-Known Member

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    Ding, ding, ding - we have a winner, folks.
     
  15. maydog

    maydog Well-Known Member

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    Give that man a French Polisher.

    Woah.. urban dictionary has a much different definition.

    Perhaps not; AOG exactly what muscles get developed from this polishing?
     
  16. ric_stern/RST

    ric_stern/RST New Member

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    You might think you mean strength, but you're wrong. You can make up whatever meaning you feel like to mean something, but that doesn't take away from it's actual meaning (or mean that you're correct).

    Presuming that FP is something to do with polishing then you're looking at some sort of movement pattern, where you apply a submaximal force for a long(ish) period of time. Hill's Force-Velocity curve clearly shows that force is inversely related to velocity (and as i presume your arm is moving at some velocity when polishing) then you can't apply maximal force. The force you apply while polishing may increase as you get fitter (at polishing) but again, that doesn't mean you've increased your strength. In fact, it's usual that in well trained endurance athletes that as they become fitter (applying a greater sub-maximal force) that their maximal force (strength) decreases due to contractile proteins being replaced by aerobic machinery.

    I've no doubt at all that if someone began polishing, then after a period of time they could polish harder, but that ain't strength.
     
  17. ric_stern/RST

    ric_stern/RST New Member

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    while it is possible that weight lifting will increase sprinting power over very short durations, it may or may not have any effect (or even a detrimental effect) on sustainable power

    ric
     
  18. edd

    edd New Member

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    I think there is another underlying issue - when conditioning muscles for absolute strength or sustained power there is this curve of diminishing returns in the stimulus/improvement equation the longer you repeat the same routine. Hense gym strength trainers are always changing it up. There are lots of variations in stimulus that can be achieved on the bike. Thing is some are blind to this and believe they need to go to the gym for the variety. We had the same sort of thread back in 2003. I was doing 10 minutes of 40kg squats at the time. I promptly stop doing those and started a mix of fast sprints and heavy slow climbing on stationary bike instead.

    That said - for those of us who are now cycling in to our 60s and 70s a little upper body training and core work should not be discouraged.
     
  19. danfoz

    danfoz Well-Known Member

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    Also good for bone density.

    But for the variety part, I'm just glad you didn't mention one-legged drills /img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif
     
  20. edd

    edd New Member

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    or ankle-ing !
     
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