Maximum strength and cycling performance

Discussion in 'Cycling Training' started by dominikk85, Nov 7, 2012.

  1. dominikk85

    dominikk85 New Member

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    I'm not saying cyclists should skate. I'm saying that a similar "off skate/bike" training might be beneficial.

    you could also say that the way to go faster in skating is to skate and still skaters do a lot of dryland jumping. why are they doing that and wasting valuable skating time?
     


  2. frost

    frost New Member

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    It's not that simple. There are studies backing up that several sports benefit from strength/plyo-training. For endurance cycling the situation is about 50 to 1 that strength training does not provide benefit.
     
  3. dhk2

    dhk2 Active Member

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    Yeah, I suppose some kinds of pliometric jump exercises might be useful for sprint speed on a bike. But, why not do the "jump" on the bike......why waste time and energy that could be used for jumps on the bike?

    We only did dryland training in the summer, when the rink was closed for the season. I wouldn't waste time or energy during the skating season with dryland training, the ice is much better. I suppose if skaters only had ice once a week, some dry training would be useful. But if the club is only skating once a week, the athletes are at a big disadvantage anyway, IMO.

    For cyclists who can't get on the bike as often as they need to, I'd suggest an indoor trainer. The skating equivalent would be a slideboard....assume those are still used. Note, I've been away from the sport since 1996, and only coached kids at a local club.. Certainly I'm not an expert or elite-level Olympic coach.
     
  4. POGATA

    POGATA New Member

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    http://m.guardiannews.com/ms/p/gnm/us/shSFD3SmwVvf5iLRAfqL-dQ/setpref.m?font-size=large&prefs=font-size&successurl=/ms/p/gnm/us/shSFD3SmwVvf5iLRAfqL-dQ/view.m?id=15&formurl=/ms/p/gnm/us/shSFD3SmwVvf5iLRAfqL-dQ/view.m?id=15&cat=sport&gid=/sport/2012/nov/06/bradely-wiggins-tour-de-france-2012
    So "core work" ain`t strength training?
     
  5. frost

    frost New Member

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    I cannot open the link but I was referring to scientific studies that have studied the effect of strength training to endurance cycling performance above. Excluding one they all say no (positive) effect.

    There are various reasons to include some strength training to cyclists off-season program (at the moment I do 1-2 gym workouts/week just for fun, to have a break from cycling only and for general health but I don't try to convince myself that it has any positive impact on my cycling performance) that are not directly related to improving endurance performance.
     
  6. POGATA

    POGATA New Member

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    I`m refering to the athletes that actually perform at the very highest level in cycling.

    Bradley Wiggins be going out in December, he be in the gym at 6am doing his core work, for fun?
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/nov/06/bradely-wiggins-tour-de-france-2012
     
  7. dominikk85

    dominikk85 New Member

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    yes core work is certainly strength training. it is certainly important (to prevent pain, to be able to hold an aero position longer...) but I was talking more about strength training for the prime moving muscles.
     
  8. POGATA

    POGATA New Member

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  9. ambal

    ambal Active Member

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    Strength requirements in road cycling are minimal. Unless a rider is disabled, frail or suffering some mussel wasting disease, they likely meet the strength requirements of road cycling at any level.
     
  10. frost

    frost New Member

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    As I said there might be various reasons to include strength training to program even they are not directly related to cycling performance. For me it is "just for fun" (I have a 15 year history of gym training so I kind of like it). We can only guess what is the reason for Wiggins. Before just blindly copying anyone's training program it would be good to understand the exact reasons why certain things are done.


    Edit: btw since the core strength and core training always seems to be the "big thing" that at least everyone should do, my personal anecdote here is that as long as I was going regularly to gym and had a "strong core" (>200kg deadlift) I had constant back pains on rides over 1.5 hours. Then I skipped gym training for a few years and concentrated strictly on cycling and mysteriously I was able to do hours without back pain even in aggressive position on a TT-bike with my decreased core strength. Strange, isn't it?
     
  11. POGATA

    POGATA New Member

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    So why do the fastest cyclists(Bradley Wiggins) go to the gym?
     
  12. POGATA

    POGATA New Member

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    What about Boardman claiming that the extra muscle mass he gets from lifting weights increases his power(ref. http://www.cyclingforums.com/t/492441/maximum-strength-and-cycling-performance/15#post_4052287)?

    Are you sure you didn`t do something wrong while deadlifting? I`ve lifted weights regularly as long as I`ve been cycling, and have no back pains
     
  13. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    It boggles my mind why these discussions continue. I suppose there will always be the thought that specific training is not good enough and that it must be supplemented with something else in order to progress.

    Even before I started cycling in 2004 I came into the activity from many years of competitive strength training and consulting bodybuilders and powerlifters knowing that whatever strength I had would be of no benefit to an aerobic activity. I find it interesting that I come to these forums with my first adoration to lifting and cycling as a taboo thing that I picked up because I enjoy it and yet I stand with the guys that promote cycling specific training.

    Weight training and core training are not necessarily bad topics and many of us still juggle between the two. I am not about to throw away 30 years of investment into strength training and it remains my #1 focus, but when the discussion turns to implied thoughts that strength training and/or core training are necessary to win in cycling is where it crosses the line and then I would expect that person implying such to be able to back it up. One cannot cherry pick a pro here and there and say because "x" is lifting than it must be good. Now if it comes to a point where thousands of cyclists find some strength training avenue and 8 out 10 are progressing like never before then it must be taken seriously. But a stray video of LA working out or BW mentioning lifting weights is not enough of a study to indicate that it is. That is not far off from saying brand "X" bike is the fastest bike because Wiggin's is riding that particular bike so it must be true.

    Fact is that people can win endurance cycling events with absolutely no strength training and have been doing so for many years and people can win races with no core training and have been doing so for very many years. Picking a person here and there as a role model for the statement just doesn't cut it for most of us.

    If people like me and Frost want to strength train we do it because we want to, but not under the pretention that it is beneficial to cycling. I would hope that many that discuss strength training along with cycling do it carefully with the disclaimer, but not as if it is necessary because the newbies lurking on these threads may get the wrong education.
     
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  14. frost

    frost New Member

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    I should perhaps emphasize that the back pains were not caused by dead lifting but due to my back muscles simply fatigueing even they were (on cyclist scale) very strong. They just had very bad fatigue resistance to cycling specific position and movement which was then gradually improved when I concentrated strictly to cycling. Which is all very much expected.

    I haven't unfortunately read Boardman's book so I don't want to comment it.
     
  15. gudujarlson

    gudujarlson New Member

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    Wow, 200kg deadlift? How much time were you spending in the gym? I go weekly and deadlift about 100 kg. Grip strength seems to be my limiter.
     
  16. Hugh Juunit

    Hugh Juunit Member

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    To enjoy the scenery.
     
  17. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    Not true at mine.....ugh!! /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif

    ____________________________

    On my previous post I feel like the tone of my post sounds harsh and it wasn't intended to be. How I would love for lifting (strength training) to apply to my cycling performance since I am putting in the time and effort, but in reality it just makes my cycling training just that much harder to be honest.
     
  18. frost

    frost New Member

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    q: How much time were you spending in the gym?
    a: all /img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif

    Well to be exact the last program I was doing before moving to cycling (for the second time) was very, very simple and has very little training hours. Monday, wednesday and friday, squat, deadlift, bench or military press and barbell row. Three hours a week and that got me the best results ever. But maybe that's a subject for another thread.
     
  19. fergie

    fergie Member

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    Apologies for referencing Chris Boardman without checking with some of the guys who worked with Peter Keen back in the day.

    Chris allegedly did do some weights as an Amateur and one year as a Professional although he claimed it didn't help and he stopped.

    Had a discussion with one of my riders about strength training and I deemed my reply blog worthy and I submit to the debate here...


    [SIZE=11pt]I have always been of two minds over strength training and even the oxymoronic [/SIZE]strength endurance[SIZE=11pt] training as strength (as defined the maximal amount of force one can generate) doesn't play a role in cycling. Even in a Match Sprint on the track the riders are operating at 80-85% of their maximal power. Although the research indicates their optimal cadence is lower than we originally thought so they now run MASSIVE gears so maximum strength is a part of their training.[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=11pt]For endurance sport we are talking very long periods at 20-40% of maximal power and maximal power is way below peak strength that is achieved in the gym. Maximal torque on the bike is a third of the torque at the knee joint while doing a 1 rep max squat and probably a 5th from a power exercise like the clean or snatch. So the priority for any cyclist is sustained power over any duration from 10sec, to 60min in a crit, 3 hours in a road race and 21 days in the Tour de France. The strength demands in the sport are very easily met.[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=11pt]Gym training in the 8-12 rep range where you fail after 3-5 sets is the optimal stimulus for muscle growth and while a bigger muscle is a stronger muscle the penalty is a decrease in power to weight. This type of training also tends to leave the legs trashed for days (as it should if hypertrophy is the goal).[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=11pt]Training in the 15+ rep range is to train muscular endurance. This is where I play the specificity card. I have some of my endurance riders do some strength training as feeling stronger in themselves adds to their motivation. But having studied neurophysiology I know the message from the brain to the muscle is very specific to the action being performed (riding a bike verses running or swimming), the orientation (road bike verses recumbent), the cadence (different levels of stress while riding 400watts uphill, tailwind, headwind, Velodrome, off-road), nature of riding (maintaining 300 watts in a TT and a normalised power of 300 in a Criterium) and many other factors.[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=11pt]So, if feeling strong from the gym is a positive then keep doing it. My concern is any gym session that leaves you sore. I would rather you trash your legs in a race or doing high intensity intervals. So my suggestion would be to perform true strength training in the 1-3 rep range. This can either mean very heavy weights and the risks associated with that or 30% loads performed very fast. One of my claims to fame is that I have personal trained a World Champion All Black. I was Ben Franks personal trainer when he was a little weedy 14 year old boy, his brother Owen was too young to train with him. These guys do lots of strongman type efforts lifting and throwing things as they do in the game. I am reluctant to say Crossfit but the concept is similar although they push the rep range into the extreme and the training becomes the focus rather than actual true competition.[/SIZE]
     
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  20. POGATA

    POGATA New Member

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    So why did CB write that he did lift weights to improve his power/increase his muscle mass, after his career was over?

    And what about upper body strength training, can that be beneficial to a cyclist, i.e. can a cyclist be able to ride faster/longer/more often etc thanks to strength/weight training?
     
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