Maximum strength and cycling performance

[fergie]

If you look at the full study you can see it is another using comparing the same volume of endurance training and the experimental group do additional strength training so again not comparing apples with apples. They also use leg extn, leg curls and calf raise. No self respecting strength coach would prescribe exercises like that. In addition the exercises are in the 10-12 rep range which is hypertrophy training. Last thing a road cyclist wants to do is put on muscle. Event the Downhill cyclists I coach are trying to lose weight.

 

[Felt_Rider]

Originally Posted by ambal .

There is a lot of 'broscience' getting talked about in this thread.

/img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif I am guilty

 

[POGATA]

Originally Posted by fergie .

If you look at the full study you can see it is another using comparing the same volume of endurance training and the experimental group do additional strength training so again not comparing apples with apples. They also use leg extn, leg curls and calf raise. No self respecting strength coach would prescribe exercises like that. In addition the exercises are in the 10-12 rep range which is hypertrophy training. Last thing a road cyclist wants to do is put on muscle. Event the Downhill cyclists I coach are trying to lose weight.

What if they have extremely low muscle mass?

 

[POGATA]

Originally Posted by fergie .


Did you read that in a book somewhere?

Not all BBers do endurance training. Track sprinters do very little if any road riding.

Several National programmes do not do any upper body work. The Aussies have massive legs but little upper body development.

The ability to sit on the bike is determined by bike position not core strength.

Loss of muscle mass is good, less weight to cart up hills. Sir Chris Hoy wishes his legs were smaller. Aero is a big factor sprinting at 75kph.

Good on those world class cyclists. I always advise my clients what to do based on celebrity endorsement.

I`m refering to road cyclists(i.e. hours in the saddle), not track cyclists.

So it was ******** that Chris Boardmans muscle mass was extremely low?

So people shouldn`t buy/use bikes, because they only exist because celebrities endorse them.

 

[printingray]

Can we ride bicycle for body fitness instead of body building? What is its impact on our bodies?

 

[An old Guy]

Originally Posted by fergie .


What part of cycling is not a strength sport are you failing to grasp. The 10sec power is at 80-85% of maximal power and a 4 hour road race is at an average of 15-20% of maximal power part. That those IIx muscle fibres are only recruited when the intensity is way above VO2max let alone functional threshold so time spent training them is time that could be better spent training type I fibres. Which is not to say that these IIx fibres can not be trained and trained specifically by riding the bike. Strength is not a limit to cycling performance. You can always deliver more force to the pedal. The trick is how well you can sustain that force, ie ENDURANCE!!!

One error is in the section I bold-ed. If it were true, one could put out maximal power for weeks at a time without a break. In fact, the statement appears to say any of us hacks can beat the current pros. But you have a position you want to push.

---

Woodworkers have some problems with the power ratings of electric routers. It appears that the power rating (3.5hp or so) is based on the instantaneous power as the tool self destructs. They have come to realize that some long term power measure is more reasonable.

While you fail to realize it, for most bicyclists strength is the power that can be maintained for hours not for less time than I can measure.

I guess any training that has the same or longer duration as a pedal stroke (1/90 second or so) most certainly benefits a bicyclist.

---

Perhaps you are doing the wrong type of strength training.

 

[frost]

Originally Posted by An old Guy .


One error is in the section I bold-ed. If it were true, one could put out maximal power for weeks at a time without a break. In fact, the statement appears to say any of us hacks can beat the current pros. But you have a position you want to push.

For about the 100th time it is not the force that separates us but the combination of the force and frequency of the application which happens to be called power. If you care to read the next sentence in Fergie's reply you'll understand what those "pros" have different.

 

[gudujarlson]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned in this thread is that if there are any benefits to cycling from strength training they are not due to increased strength but rather to something else (e.g. increased capillary density, increased enzyme activity). Strength if defined as 1 rep max has nothing to do with a sport that measures reps in the thousands.

You can think of the body working sort of like a reservoir. The water behind the dam is your short term energy reserve. The water flowing out of the dam is the energy you are consuming to keep your body working. The rivers flowing into the reservoir are your energy supply systems (heart, lungs, blood vessels, mitrochrondria, etc). As you increase your exercise intensity, you open the dam gates. As you decrease your exercise intensity you close the gates. When you are weight lifting, the gates are wide open and the reservoir quickly empties. The bigger the gates, the faster the water flows out and the stronger you are. As the reservoir empties, the amount of water decreases until it equals the amount flowing in. Once that point is reached, there is no way to make the water flow out of the reservoir any faster than it is flowing into the reservoir. It doesn't matter how big the gates are or how strong you are.

 

[daveryanwyoming]

Originally Posted by gudujarlson .

... if there are any benefits to cycling from strength training they are not due to increased strength but rather to something else (e.g. increased capillary density, increased enzyme activity). ...

No doubt some will continue to argue that weight training can bring some improvements in these areas. But one thing that is known is that increasing muscle fiber cross sectional area through hypertrophy leads to lower mitochondrial densities. The process is typically referred to as 'mitochondrial dilution' but the bottom line is it seems the number of mitochondria per muscle fiber is limited and muscle fiber per unit area decreases as a result of hypertrophy. IOW, muscles become stronger (the result of larger fiber cross sectional area) but less aerobically efficient (lower mitochondrial density) as a result of activities that induce muscular hypertrophy.

I don't know of research that points to changes in capillary density as the result of strength building but there is good evidence that increasing muscle fiber cross sectional area via hypertrophy isn't a great thing for endurance athletes but a very good thing for strength athletes.

-Dave

 

[gudujarlson]

Originally Posted by daveryanwyoming .

I don't know of research that points to changes in capillary density as the result of strength building but there is good evidence that increasing muscle fiber cross sectional area via hypertrophy isn't a great thing for endurance athletes but a very good thing for strength athletes.

-Dave

This is where it gets a little foggy to me. I have not done a lot of reading in this area, but I have come across some studies that suggest strength training did increase capillary density. This one for example:

http://www.jappl.org/content/81/5/2004.full

The study does not indicate that capillary density increases more during strength training that in endurance training, but it might indicate that there is no downside to strength training as far as capillary density goes.

 

[daveryanwyoming]

Originally Posted by gudujarlson .
....The study does not indicate that capillary density increases more during strength training that in endurance training, but it might indicate that there is no downside to strength training as far as capillary density goes.

No argument there, I'd expect most training that results in positive adaptations of either strength or endurance to also improve local circulation, I wasn't aware of any studies confirming or denying that idea but it makes sense that positive adaptations in the working muscles include improvements in terms of delivering O2 and nutrients to those muscles. But that alone isn't great for an endurance athlete if it comes at the expense of reduced mitochondrial density as it's the mitochondria that enable aerobic metabolism.

IOW, I don't think we know all the tradeoffs on the cellular level but it's clear that at least one tradeoff resulting from hypertrophy isn't great for endurance athletes so unless someone can demonstrate a need for higher peak strength (which is doubtful for athletes with events much over a minute long) there's at least one strike against training geared to improving peak contractile force (i.e. classic strength training).

-Dave

 

[fergie]

Where to start

I am not going to do weight training because Chris Boardman allegedly wanted to put muscle mass on. If we are talking celeb endorsement then how much muscle did Wiggins take off his frame to change from a legend trackie to a legend roadie?

No I don't choose a bike because someone famous rides them, I choose a bike because I do my homework and know it's a good bike and suits my needs. That is a stupid argument, how old are you?

Old guy way to misunderstand an argument (but follows a pattern), if you are sprinting at your max 10sec power you can always pedal harder, 10sec power is between 75-85% of peak power so you have a power reserve but do this and you can't sustain to 10sec. I had a sprinter lead out with instructions to build to 100% down the straight but she panicked when her opponent came up on the hip and hit the gas too early and died down the straight getting beaten.

There will be some aerobic adaptations to strength and alactic exercise because the aerobic pathways facilitate the recovery from severe intensity activity. But nowhere near the same adaptations that one sees from targeted exercise at the aerobic level.

Just back from a Strength and Conditioning conference and the good presentations were the ones where PhD level people presented their current research. The bad ones were the undergrad degree and Master's degree or worse 2 day to 12 week certificate or diploma course recipients who had a real bad habit of saying, "in my experience" or "this worked for athlete X and he is World Champ" so we should all do it. A lot of people walked out of the presentations. The big key in the good presentations was SPECIFICITY!!!

 

[Felt_Rider]

Originally Posted by fergie .


Just back from a Strength and Conditioning conference and the good presentations were the ones where PhD level people presented their current research. The bad ones where the undergrad degree and Master's degree or worse 2 day to 12 week certificate or diploma course recipients who had a real bad habit of saying, "in my experience" or "this worked for athlete X and he is World Champ" so we should all do it. A lot of people walked out of the presentations. The big key in the good presentations was SPECIFICITY!!!

My favorite word for an aspiring competitor....always /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif

 

[POGATA]

Originally Posted by fergie .

Where to start

I am not going to do weight training because Chris Boardman allegedly wanted to put muscle mass on. If we are talking celeb endorsement then how much muscle did Wiggins take off his frame to change from a legend trackie to a legend roadie?

No I don't choose a bike because someone famous rides them, I choose a bike because I do my homework and know it's a good bike and suits my needs. That is a stupid argument, how old are you?

Old guy way to misunderstand an argument (but follows a pattern), if you are sprinting at your max 10sec power you can always pedal harder, 10sec power is between 75-85% of peak power so you have a power reserve but do this and you can't sustain to 10sec. I had a sprinter lead out with instructions to build to 100% down the straight but she panicked when her opponent came up on the hip and hit the gas too early and died down the straight getting beaten.

There will be some aerobic adaptations to strength and alactic exercise because the aerobic pathways facilitate the recovery from severe intensity activity. But nowhere near the same adaptations that one sees from targeted exercise at the aerobic level.

Just back from a Strength and Conditioning conference and the good presentations were the ones where PhD level people presented their current research. The bad ones were the undergrad degree and Master's degree or worse 2 day to 12 week certificate or diploma course recipients who had a real bad habit of saying, "in my experience" or "this worked for athlete X and he is World Champ" so we should all do it. A lot of people walked out of the presentations. The big key in the good presentations was SPECIFICITY!!!

But is it a possibility that a cyclist might benefit from putting on some more muscle mass, i.e. could muscle mass be so low that it could benefit a cyclist to put on more muscle mass?

Wiggins also claims in a book, that he went to the gym("I'd be in the gym at 6am doing my core work", http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/nov/06/bradely-wiggins-tour-de-france-2012), to work on his core.

So is it possible that from doing my homework, i.e. adding some strength training to my training programme(because some famous pro has claimed that it`s part of his training programme), seeing how that goes compared to periods where I`ve done no strength training, and then figuring out if strength training works for me or not?

But should those of us who benefit from doing similar things as athlete X who is a World Champ, do what athlete X who is a World Champ does, or should we not do it just because someone else has done it, or claimed to have done it?

 

[fergie]

Originally Posted by POGATA .

But is it a possibility that a cyclist might benefit from putting on some more muscle mass, i.e. could muscle mass be so low that it could benefit a cyclist to put on more muscle mass?

Wiggins also claims in a book, that he went to the gym("I'd be in the gym at 6am doing my core work", http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/nov/06/bradely-wiggins-tour-de-france-2012), to work on his core.

So is it possible that from doing my homework, i.e. adding some strength training to my training programme(because some famous pro has claimed that it`s part of his training programme), seeing how that goes compared to periods where I`ve done no strength training, and then figuring out if strength training works for me or not?

But should those of us who benefit from doing similar things as athlete X who is a World Champ, do what athlete X who is a World Champ does, or should we not do it just because someone else has done it, or claimed to have done it?

Classic humour, you're an idiot.

Do what you want, I wish you luck.

 

[dominikk85]

Joe friel recommends that a cyclist should be able to squat 1.3 to 1.7 times his bodyweight in his training bible. don't know why he choses that weight.

I would say strength gains can never hurt but only with they don't come with a lot of weight gain.

BTW does anyone know why boardman sucked in the mountains? why was rather short and light with very good power. but still he mostly got over the hills with the sprinters in the TDF even if he had the yellow jersey after the prologue. he certainly was not the heavy muscular type of time trialist (like cancellara or gonchar) so theoretically he should have been a better climber than them.

 

[dominikk85]

couldn't be one effect of weight training that it you are pushing with a smaller part of your maximum strength in cycling?

I know you don't need maximum strength but even if you only push with like 40% of your 1RM when you ride 400 watts you could push that maybe down to 25% with increases strength (both numbers are made up but you get the point).

theoretically you should be able to work longer at 25% than at 40% just like a fat slob who can deadift 700 pounds will outperform a super fit cross fitter with a max of 350 when there is a competition in dead lifting 300 pounds for reps (because it is a sissy weight for him).

I'm not sre that is applicable to cycling though. when the weight was 200 the cross fitter would probably win easily.

 

[POGATA]

Originally Posted by fergie .

Classic humour, you're an idiot.

Do what you want, I wish you luck.

Poster on a norwegian forum claims to have been at a lecture with Fredrik Mohn(Edvald Boasson Hagens coach for the last seven years), and claims that Mohn there claimed that Hagen did deadlifts followed by riding in level 2 with a rpm of 45-60. Is it just ********, is it to confuse competitors/fools like myself, is it just mind games the coach is playing on Hagen, or might there be some benefit for a cyclist to lift weights?

Google translation:
Was recently on a lecture about bike training with Fredrik Mohn such as trained Boasson Hagen and Nordhaug and we got to see parts of the training program that they had used. The driving force pedaling in zone 2 with cadence 45-60 in combination with weight training and the mongrel session with weights first. If I remember correctly: 12 rep deadlift. so 9 rep. and finally 5 rep. at maximum load. Thats. that when they had lifted five times in the last scene, then they should not be able to lift a 6 time when it is too heavy. But personally I like to run very heavy pedaling force (45-60) and is enough when in zone 3 Feeling like I turn two birds with one stone then and doing cardio "free" with the purchase

 

[dominikk85]

Originally Posted by POGATA .


Poster on a norwegian forum claims to have been at a lecture with Fredrik Mohn(Edvald Boasson Hagens coach for the last seven years), and claims that Mohn there claimed that Hagen did deadlifts followed by riding in level 2 with a rpm of 45-60. Is it just ********, is it to confuse competitors/fools like myself, is it just mind games the coach is playing on Hagen, or might there be some benefit for a cyclist to lift weights?

Google translation:

what weight and reps? without that the story is just an annecdote.

 

[fergie]

Originally Posted by dominikk85 .

I know you don't need maximum strength but even if you only push with like 40% of your 1RM when you ride 400 watts you could push that maybe down to 25% with increases strength (both numbers are made up but you get the point).

That would be relevant only if you used the same muscle fibres that you performed at 100% as you used at 40%. Which you don't. And if you strengthened them in exactly the same way you intended to use them in performance (hmmmm what exercise could one do to train the muscles the same way one did when riding a bike).