Mayo crashes before Pavé

[Jim Flom]

"steve robertson" wrote ...
>
> USPS were definitely riding hard the first time we saw the
> peloton after the crash images. But they had to continue
> to ride hard right through the pavé

FWIW, here's Graham Watson's expert commentary, putting the
pace more on T-Mobile's shoulders than US Postals.

"Two minutes back, the Euskatel team are working flat-out to
close the growing gap for Mayo" http://grahamwatson.com/gw/-
imagedocs.nsf/updateframesetcall?openform&04tourSt3

and then...

"On hearing this, T-Mobile go to the head of the leading
group to make sure Mayo never returns..." http://graham-
watson.com/gw/imagedocs.nsf/updateframesetcall?openform-
&04tourSt3

 

[Steve Robertson]

On Wed, 07 Jul 2004 00:39:40 GMT, "Jim Flom"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>"steve robertson" wrote ...
>>
>> USPS were definitely riding hard the first time we saw
>> the peloton after the crash images. But they had to
>> continue to ride hard right through the pavé
>
>FWIW, here's Graham Watson's expert commentary, putting the
>pace more on T-Mobile's shoulders than US Postals.
>
>"Two minutes back, the Euskatel team are working flat-out
>to close the growing gap for Mayo" http://grahamwatson.com-
>/gw/imagedocs.nsf/updateframesetcall?openform&04tourSt3
>
>and then...
>
>"On hearing this, T-Mobile go to the head of the leading
>group to make sure Mayo never returns..." http://graham-
>watson.com/gw/imagedocs.nsf/updateframesetcall?openform-
>&04tourSt3
>

Jim, do you have a point? All I said is that according to
the TV images, USPS drove hard before, during, and for a few
Km past the cobbles where other teams took over.

I am not accusing USPS of anything nefarious, or anything
beyond what would be expected before such a potentially
decisive segment.

Georgie say: RELAX

 

[Steve Robertson]

On Wed, 07 Jul 2004 00:22:46 GMT, "Jim Flom"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>"Chris" wrote...
>>
>> Gee, he once waited for Ullrich (though Armstrong also
>> did benefit from
>the
>> pace setting assistance Jan then provided) so I guess
>> that is the one time he had to do it in oder to claim the
>> high moral ground in every future situation.
>
>I hope this is a joke. We all saw the footage last year.
>Ulrich continued attacking the fallen Lance until Hamilton
>rode to the front and waved them off. Both Leggett and
>Armstrong are on record as having stated their opinion
>after reviewing the tapes that they believe Ulrich didn't
>let up a bit.
>

Yeah, Jim:

Ullrich, who was right behind Mayo (who was right behind
Armstrong) when they fell, attacked. Hamilton, who was
dropped big time, then sprinted ahead (accompanied by a
bunch of other dropped riders). He flew up to Ullrich, who
was in full attack mode, and told him to slow down.

Geez - when Ullrich attacks, the one person who could catch
him (who has ever caught him) is Armstrong. Ullrich waited,
regardless what Armstrong said. If he had not, how could a
second-string climber like Hamilton have caught him (along
with all the other dropped riders)?

steve

 

[Jim Flom]

"steve robertson" wrote...
>
> Ullrich, ...attacked. Hamilton, ...flew up to Ullrich, who
> was in full attack mode, and told him to slow down.
>
> Geez - when Ullrich attacks, the one person who could
> catch him (who has ever caught him) is Armstrong. Ullrich
> waited, regardless what Armstrong said. If he had not, how
> could a second-string climber like Hamilton have caught
> him (along with all the other dropped riders)?

Thanks for recalling the details, Steve. As you say, Ulrich
"attacked... in full attack mode." Apparently your "second
stringer" Hamilton "flew up" to the otherwise uncatchable
(except, apparently by Armstrong) Ulrich, who, as you say,
was in "full attack mode." Please explain how you did not
just contradict yourself (without flaming me, preferably).
How Ulrich "waited" while in "full attack mode," unless the
Flying Hamilton dissuaded him (as you and I have both said),
is a mystery wrapped in an enigma. But again, there's some
level at which we seem to agree. I think.

JF

 

[Jim Flom]

"steve robertson" wrote ...
> On Wed, 07 Jul 2004 00:39:40 GMT, "Jim Flom"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >"steve robertson" wrote ...
> >>
> >> USPS were definitely riding hard the first time we saw
> >> the peloton after the crash images. But they had to
> >> continue to ride hard right through the pavé
> >
> >FWIW, here's Graham Watson's expert commentary, putting
> >the pace more on T-Mobile's shoulders than US Postals.
> >
> >"Two minutes back, the Euskatel team are working flat-out
> >to close the growing gap for Mayo"
>
>http://grahamwatson.com/gw/imagedocs.nsf/updateframesetcal-
>l?openform&04tour
St3
> >
> >and then...
> >
> >"On hearing this, T-Mobile go to the head of the leading
> >group to make
sure
> >Mayo never returns..."
>
>http://grahamwatson.com/gw/imagedocs.nsf/updateframesetcal-
>l?openform&04tour
St3
> >
>
> Jim, do you have a point? All I said is that according to
> the TV images, USPS drove hard before, during, and for a
> few Km past the cobbles where other teams took over.
>
> I am not accusing USPS of anything nefarious, or anything
> beyond what would be expected before such a potentially
> decisive segment.
>
> Georgie say: RELAX

Uh, Steve, I was not responding to you personally. I've had
two beers and I am quite relaxed. Enjoying ham and pineapple
pizza in fact. My use of the term "expert" in relation to
Graham Watson was tongue in cheek, and my comments were to
lend support to the position that it was not bad form on
Postal's part, as others in this thread have suggested. Glad
we seem to agree.

JF

 

[Darrell Criswel]

On Tue, 6 Jul 2004 15:51:08 +0200, "Jonathan v.d. Sluis"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>"David Off" <[email protected]> schreef in
>bericht news:40eaabf2$0$5549$79c14f64@nan-newsreader-
>05.noos.net...
>> Iban Mayo has been involved in a big pile-up just before
>> the cobbles. His shorts are ripped and he has a big gash
>> on his left thigh but seems to be regaining the bunch.
>
>Ofcourse, that's the moment that the bunch of US Postal
>assholes decide to ride a tempo that prevents Mayo from
>rejoining the group. Armstrong expects everyone else to
>wait for him, but God forbid that he would extend that
>courtesy to others.
>
Ridiculous! Armstrong's team had to get him through the
Cobbles and they wouldn't have without crashing if they had
waited. The unwritten rule doesn't say you always wait for a
crashed rider, the rule is more like you don't take
advantage of a fallen competitor. I don't believe Mayo has
yet established himself as a strong competitor in the race
to Armstrong yet. The unwritten rule more applies to someone
not attacking immediately after they see a contender crash.
If Ullrich had crashed next to Armsrong and then USPS had
hit it hard and gotten significant time on him that would
have been unsportsmanly.

 

[Top Sirloin]

K. J. Papai wrote:

> David Off <david.off_04.noos.net>...
>
>>Robert Chung wrote:
>>
>>>Marco Velo looks to be out -- blood all over his jersey.
>>>
>>
>>absolutely horrible crash for Velo, a fractured clavicule.
>>Very nasty.
>
>
> I had a worse crash last year with a bigger broken bone
> and it sure wasn't "horrific."

Broken bone? PAH! Several times I've been caught in a split
at a red light on a group ride and had to work really hard
with some other peeps to bridge back up to the lead group. A
couple of times we never made it.

The nerve of some people!

--
Scott Johnson / scottjohnson at kc dot rr dot com

 

[System U]

How come cyclingnews didn't ask LA and Tyler why they
attacked Mayo when he fell?

The answer: because they're too busy kissing the asses of
both of those U.S. riders.

But when Lance wanted to give quotes about Ullrich possibly
not slowing up last year when he fell, cyclingnews made sure
to print those quotes everyyday for the next 3 weeks.

Thanks,

SYSTEM U

MikeW wrote:

> I think the decision to ride in front had more to do with
> the upcoming cobbles than Mayo's misfortune? Just worked
> out that way.
>
> "Jonathan v.d. Sluis" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>"Gary" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
>>news:[email protected]...
>>
>>>I believe the wait is expected for the yellow jersey
>>>only, although I may be mistaken about that.
>>
>>There is no expected wait. Ullrich showed his class by
>>waiting, Armstrong does not.
>>
>>Jonathan.
>>
>>
>

 

[K. Gringioni]

"Jonathan v.d. Sluis" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> "Gary" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
> news:[email protected]...
> > I believe the wait is expected for the yellow jersey
> > only, although I may be mistaken about that.
>
> There is no expected wait. Ullrich showed his class by
> waiting, Armstrong does not.

Dumbass -

Don't pretend you don't know about cobbles.

The teams drag race to the start of the cobbles, trying to
keep themselves out of the inevitable trouble that arises
once the peloton enters it.

The drag race will not stop just because a contender has
fallen. All the other teams still need to get their leaders
to the cobbled sections in the front.

No need to thank me for enlightening you. I am a Good
Samaritan. Take care and have a nice day.

K. Gringioni

 

[Charlie C.]

Bird <[email protected]> wrote in news:ifvle0hrk7ovg14u6mf9b32uiarjofgg8i@
4ax.com:

>
> Who is the ******? Did you remember Armstrong and
> Hamilton, last year? Those were the wankers, when they
> thought for a while that Ullrich didn't wait for Armstrng,
> after his clumsy fall in the Pyrenees. (Ullrich did wait,
> but Mr. Armstrong was nevertheless complaining about a
> lack of sportsmanship)
>
> As I said before, that stinks.
>

Armstong never complained about "a lack of sportsmanship".
He never once spoke negativly about Ulrich for not waiting.
He simply pointed out that he didn't think Jan waited. And
he did so because he was asked about it; he didn't just come
out and say it.

You are conveneintly twisting words and events around to
support your "asshole" theory. Get a life.

Not to mention that no one is even sure what the "rule: is!
Is it don't attack the Yellow Jersey? Is it don't attack a
contender for it? Is it don't attack a favorite? What is it?
Eddie Merckx has said that you shouldn't wait at all for
anyone! Oh, wait. He's an asshole, too.

Also, is Mayo even a contender yet? No one is a contender
until the second week (maybe even the third week this year).
Not even Lance or Jan. Anything can happen and until the
race shakes itself out we have NO IDEA who is going to be in
contention. If Mayo is in yellow and he falls, fine, don't
atatck. But until he's actually a contender for real (as
opposed to a "favorite") he's not squat.

 

[Steve Robertson]

On Wed, 07 Jul 2004 01:39:29 GMT, "Jim Flom"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>"steve robertson" wrote...
>>
>> Ullrich, ...attacked. Hamilton, ...flew up to Ullrich,
>> who was in full attack mode, and told him to slow down.
>>
>> Geez - when Ullrich attacks, the one person who could
>> catch him (who has ever caught him) is Armstrong. Ullrich
>> waited, regardless what Armstrong said. If he had not,
>> how could a second-string climber like Hamilton have
>> caught him (along with all the other dropped riders)?
>
>Thanks for recalling the details, Steve. As you say, Ulrich
>"attacked... in full attack mode." Apparently your "second
>stringer" Hamilton "flew up" to the otherwise uncatchable
>(except, apparently by Armstrong) Ulrich, who, as you say,
>was in "full attack mode." Please explain how you did not
>just contradict yourself (without flaming me, preferably).
>How Ulrich "waited" while in "full attack mode," unless the
>Flying Hamilton dissuaded him (as you and I have both
>said), is a mystery wrapped in an enigma. But again,
>there's some level at which we seem to agree. I think.
>
>JF
>

Jim:

I am sorry if you think I "flamed" you.

However, I resent your selective editing of my post. Please
respond to the original post. If you have some comments, do
not take my words out of context. Comment on my full
sentecnces at least, if not the entire expository paragraph.

Hell, I could say that "Jim...is...a...n...enigma". But it
would not have anything to do with you, just taking words
out of your post, like you have done to mine.

Please try to be fair next time.

steve

 

[Steven Gee]

As Floyd Landis said in his cyclingnews.com column:

"Today, there was a pretty big crash today up in the front
of the field as we were fighting for position before the
cobbles. At that point, it was full speed as everyone was
just trying to get to the front. We all knew Mayo had
crashed but it didn't really change anything because we
were already going flat-out. It was a bad day for Euskaltel
today; it's too bad, but it's bound to happen to somebody.
It was bad luck for Mayo and I feel bad for Euskaltel, but
it can happen to anybody - even Lance."

The pace was already balls-to-the-walls, so they did not
pick it up to dump Mayo.

"Chris" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> "Top Sirloin" <[email protected]>
> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Jonathan v.d. Sluis wrote:
> > > "Gary" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
> > > news:[email protected]...
> > >
> > >>I believe the wait is expected for the yellow jersey
> > >>only, although I may be mistaken about that.
> > >
> > >
> > > There is no expected wait. Ullrich showed his class by
> > > waiting,
> Armstrong
> > > does not.
> >
> > Ullrich is in the same group dipshit.
>
> He was (obviously to most people) talking about Ullrich
> when he waited last year and Armstrong won the stage.
>
> >
> > --
> > Scott Johnson / scottjohnson at kc dot rr dot com

 

[Steve Robertson]

On 7 Jul 2004 04:16:22 GMT, "Charlie C."
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Armstong never complained about "a lack of sportsmanship".
>He never once spoke negativly about Ulrich for not waiting.
>He simply pointed out that he didn't think Jan waited. And
>he did so because he was asked about it; he didn't just
>come out and say it.

Ullrich waited, simple as that. Armstrong may not think he
did, but the facts are:
- Mayo attacked, Armstrong followed.
- Ullrich followed, and all the other riders were dropped
- Armstrong fell, Mayo fell over him, and Ullrich barely
avoided the crash.
- At the time of the crash, Ullrich was with Armstrong and
Mayo, and about 50m in front of the rest.
- Soon after the crash, the dropped riders (including
Hamilton who was not at the front) caught Ullrich.
- Hamilton made his gesture.

Does anybody really think that Ullrich did not wait? If
Ullrich had kept riding just at the pace of the elite group
(Mayo/Armstrong/Ullrich) that he was part of, there is no
way that the dropped riders would have caught up. If Ullrich
had actually attacked (i.e., sped up) when Armstrong fell -
well, game over for Armstrong and everybody else.

But some people seem to insist that Ullrich attacked after
Armstrong fell and then the dropped riders (including
Hamilton) all of a sudden found the strength to catch
Ullrich and tell him to slow down.

Given Ullrich's propensity for winding up the power, and the
fact that he had caught Mayo and Armstrong, do you guys
really think that he could not have at least kept the pace
of the group which had dropped Hamilton and company so
definitively? Do you really think that the dropped riders
could have come back on Ullrich all of a sudden, if Ullrich
had attacked? It stands to reason that if Hamilton and the
others could not follow Ullrich when he was just following
Armstrong's attack, that they could not possibly catch up to
Ullrich if he had actually attacked.

steve

 

[Jim Flom]

"steve robertson" wrote (en toto)...
> Jim:
>
> I am sorry if you think I "flamed" you.
>
> However, I resent your selective editing of my post.
> Please respond to the original post. If you have some
> comments, do not take my words out of context. Comment on
> my full sentecnces at least, if not the entire expository
> paragraph.
>
> Hell, I could say that "Jim...is...a...n...enigma". But it
> would not have anything to do with you, just taking words
> out of your post, like you have done to mine.
>
> Please try to be fair next time.
>
> steve

Give me a break, Steve. Here's your original paragraph,
before my edits: "Ullrich, who was right behind Mayo (who
was right behind Armstrong) when they fell, attacked.
Hamilton, who was dropped big time, then sprinted ahead
(accompanied by a bunch of other dropped riders). He flew up
to Ullrich, who was in full attack mode, and told him to
slow down."

Here's my edit:
> Ullrich, ...attacked. Hamilton, ...flew up to Ullrich, who
> was in full attack mode, and told him to slow down.

I changed nothing of the essential meaning and eliminated
only those parts that were not directly pertinent to the
point you and I both made that Ulrich was attacking after
Armstrong fell. I didn't change the meaning an iota.

Ladies and gentlemen, you be the judge. And now, back to our
regularly scheduled programming.

J "fair is fair" F

 

[Stewart Fleming]

Jim Flom wrote:
> "steve robertson" wrote ...
>
>>USPS were definitely riding hard the first time we saw the
>>peloton after the crash images.
>
>
> The Posties, Phonak, etc., were riding very hard well
> before the crash. There was no reason to let up because of
> some crash back there somewhere.

Pretty predictable strategy for a strong team. Get to the
front before the cobbles, drive the pace hard enough that
nobody else can get to the front. If there is a split for
whatever reason, the automatic response would be to drive it
hard and no let up. But I wonder how much influence the
following had on the chasing group:

Stuey O'Grady: "I crashed on the second section of pavé, got
back up quickly and chased around the corner and the train
barriers were down and I had to stop. We were only about 10
seconds off the back." <http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php-
?id=news/2004/jul04/jul07news2

 

[Ernst Noch]

Tom Kunich wrote:

>
> Excuse me, but if you don't understand the rules why are
> you commenting on them?

WTF? Where did I comment anything on USPS' or someone elses
doing in this stage? Reread the post I was answering to, we
were going on about if sportsmanship in general can be
expected nowadays. I pointed to the most obvious situation
where Jan clearly did show it - he would've even allowed
Vino to gain time instead of not waiting for Beloki.

> Jens Voigt was almost 4 minutes up and a definite threat
> on GC if he maintained that sort of advantage. UPS wasn't
> dumping Mayo - they were closing down the time to Voigt.
> After they caught Voigt they stopped working and the other
> teams started working.

I couldn't see the stage (one of the reasons I didn't
comment on it, btw.), but you really think that LA started
to fear Jens Voigt as a GC contender, did I understand that
right? I for one think the cobbles are a good enough
explanation.

> Let's not play games and pretend that somehow Mayo stood
> much of a chance in the first place was stretching it. But
> surely that'll show as the race progresses.

Well, at least he his surely one of the better GC guys in
the peloton. If you deny him to be (have been) a serious
contender for the win, who's left?

> And answer me this - do you think that it will make a
> difference to Mayo's chances of winning L'Alpe D'Huez?
> With a 4 minute buffer we can expect Lance to not try to
> break Mayo there giving him his best chance to win.

So you think it was a plot by Mayo to eliminate himself as a
GC contender?

You know what, I bet you that LA and JU have more respect
from a Mayo who is is on even time with them than from a
Jens Voigt who is 5, probably even 15, in front of them. And
I like and admire Jens Voigt a lot, and don't like Mayo.

 

[Robert Chung]

Stewart Fleming wrote:
>
> But I wonder how much influence the following had on the
> chasing group:
>
> Stuey O'Grady: "I crashed on the second section of pavé,
> got back up quickly and chased around the corner and the
> train barriers were down and I had to stop. We were only
> about 10 seconds off the back." <http://www.cyclingnews.c-
> om/news.php?id=news/2004/jul04/jul07news2>

The barriers rose before the Mayo/Moreau/Hushvold group got
there, so it had no effect on them.

 

[Kenny]

"benjo maso" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> "Gary" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
> news:[email protected]...
> > I believe the wait is expected for the yellow jersey
> > only, although I may be mistaken about that.
>
>
> You're mistaken. It has nothing to do with the yellow
> jersey. If your rival has a fall, you're supposed not to
> attack. It has been done several times in the Tour, but is
> still - and rightly so - considered to be very
> unsportsmanslike.
>
> Benjo Maso

Yeah right! They didn't wait for Museeuw when he flatted on
the last section pave this year's Paris-Roubaix. Please note
that these circumstances are different. Last year LA fell
because of an uncareful spectator. That's something that has
nothing to do with the race, that is impossible to
anticipate on. Whole other story when you cannot stay on
your bike because of the heavy speed and nervosity before a
section pave. I say all that "waiting" stuff is ****. It's
the same as saying: when you are a favourite, you may not
loose a race because of bad luck, but all the other riders
may loose a race because of bad luck.

Kenny

 

[Benjamin Weiner]

Bob Schwartz <[email protected]> wrote:

> Still not willing to give up on your man Mayo, eh Dan? My
> prediction is that he will finish within four minutes of
> the winner, and that this will happen because he will be
> allowed to pick up time because he is no longer considered
> a GC threat. And that forever after we will be serenaded
> by boogerheads that will whine about how he would have won
> if not for the bad luck on the cobbles. Much like we still
> hear from boogerheads convinced that Lemond wasn't allowed
> to win in 1985.

Geez, Bob, the Tour starts and suddenly your home-team
instinct kicks in? LANCE's victory this year (which I've
read in rbr is inevitable since Jan is already 15 sec down)
is clearly tainted. Counterfactuals are perfectly
legitimate, as Lemond's virtual Tour wins show. In fact, if
you examine LANCE's virtual Tour record, it's not that
impressive:

1999 - Ullrich and Pantani out; Passage du Gois causeway,
say no more. 2000 - Ullrich's early season suffers; Lance
can't even manage to win a stage other than the final TT;
Actovegin mini-scandal. Give him half credit. 2001 - Ullrich
still not in top form, Pantani goes mental. Lance does ride
well with a depleted team in the mountains. I give him full
credit, with a black mark for his unsportsmanlike playacting
and "The Look" 2002 - No Jan. Heras tows Lance up all climbs
and has to grab fistfuls of brake to keep from dropping him.
Boring, and can't take a tour seriously with Rumsas on the
podium 2003 - Jan had a team made of ticky tacky; Lance
needed Jan to wait on Luz Ardiden; still might have lost if
weather hadn't changed in final TT. Lots of excuses from
Lance. 2004 - Obviously belongs to Mayo.

So there you go, on the virtual Tour scale Lance has
only managed
1.5 victories. In fact, I'm not sure anyone has actually won
a Tour since Hinault, or maybe Stephen Roche.

 

[Peter Appel]

In article <[email protected]>, Jonathan v.d. Sluis
<[email protected]> wrote:

> "David Off" <[email protected]> schreef in
> bericht news:40eaabf2$0$5549$79c14f64@nan-newsreader-
> 05.noos.net...
> > Iban Mayo has been involved in a big pile-up just before
> > the cobbles. His shorts are ripped and he has a big gash
> > on his left thigh but seems to be regaining the bunch.
>
> Ofcourse, that's the moment that the bunch of US Postal
> assholes decide to ride a tempo that prevents Mayo from
> rejoining the group. Armstrong expects everyone else to
> wait for him, but God forbid that he would extend that
> courtesy to others.

That's not the point. All leading teams were rinding hard
on the pave, not only USPS: also Phonak, T-Mobile. As
Ullrich said: this was the plan, they wanted to gain some
time to some riders. It was just for guys like Heras, Mayo
and others. Heras, however was strong enough to close the
gap. Chapeau!

The crash was bad luck, but I'm sure: even without the crash
Mayo would have lost 2 or even 3 min. Have you seen him
slowly skipping on the copples? He was lost on the pave, a
weak performance.