Mayo crashes before Pavé



On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 15:04:32 -0400, Top Sirloin wrote:
> down because of spectator intervention.

There was no spectator intervention.
 
On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 23:07:00 GMT, "Tom Kunich" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Excuse me, but if you don't understand the rules why are
>you commenting on them?

These are not rules, only "unwritten rules". Okay with me,
but riders should be consistent, not only pointing at those
commitments when they have the benefit of them.

(again; compare the comments of Armstrong on Ullrich,
last year)

>Jens Voigt was almost 4 minutes up and a definite threat on
>GC if he maintained that sort of advantage. UPS wasn't
>dumping Mayo - they were closing down the time to Voigt.

Since when Armstrong is concerned about who's wearing the
yellow in the first week of the Tour?

Cancellara, Hushovd, McEwen, maybe Voigt ..... that's not
the concern of USPostals. Voigt will be a happy man if he
finishes under 60 minutes behind the winner, in Paris.

>And answer me this - do you think that it will make a
>difference to Mayo's chances of winning L'Alpe D'Huez? With
>a 4 minute buffer we can expect Lance to not try to break
>Mayo there giving him his best chance to win.

Mayo might win on Alpe d'Huez, of course. but Mayo's dream
was to win the Tour and he had a very good chance. until
yesterday.

Armstrong eliminated one opponent, not in a very
"sportsmanlike" way. That's okay with me, but Armstrong
should not be complaining if T-Mobile will attack , the
moment Armstrong got a flat tire or falls again, as a result
of his own mistakes.
 
Bird <[email protected]> wrote in news:fcqne01a6uc3vhepm3fro0uv97p0dnth2m@
4ax.com:

> On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 22:55:35 GMT, "Tom Kunich"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>So who instigated the attack?
>
> Hamilton and Armstrong.
>
>
>
> Greets, Arne Vogel.

Hey! Robbie McEwen fell during the second set of pavers.
How come no one is whining because the other Green Jersey
contenders didn't wait for him? Oh, wait. It's because only
Lance (and now apparently Tyler!) are the assholes. Now
it's clear.
 
steve robertson <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> On 7 Jul 2004 04:16:22 GMT, "Charlie C."
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Armstong never complained about "a lack of sportsmanship".
>>He never once spoke negativly about Ulrich for not
>>waiting. He simply pointed out that he didn't think Jan
>>waited. And he did so because he was asked about it; he
>>didn't just come out and say it.
>
> Ullrich waited, simple as that.

The point of my post was not whether or not Ullrich waited
or not. I was rebuting someone who said that Armstrong
complained about Jan not waiting. I simply pointed out that
Lance only brought it up when he was asked about it and he
never said anything negative per se (or whined) about Jan,
simply stated that he thought he didn't wait based on what
he saw while in the race, what he saw on TV and what Tyler
said. I suppose Tyler could have been lying when he told
Lance that Jan didn't hold up.

Also, I don't think the issue is whether or not Jan attacked
but whether or not Jan waited. Also you assume that Tyler
couldn't catch up. You have no idea whether or not he had it
in him or not. Your theory fits your feelings on the issue
but in no way is your theory irrefutable.

Of course, another thing people seem to be forgetting is
that Mayo attacked Lance when he went down last year. Why is
it okay for Mayo to attack the Yellow Jersey when he crashes
but it's not okay for the race to continue through a
dangerous stretch of road if a Mayo crashes?
 
Steven Gee wrote:
> As Floyd Landis said in his cyclingnews.com column:
>
> "Today, there was a pretty big crash today up in the
> front of the field as we were fighting for position
> before the cobbles. At that point, it was full speed as
> everyone was just trying to get to the front. We all knew
> Mayo had crashed but it didn't really change anything
> because we were already going flat-out. It was a bad day
> for Euskaltel today; it's too bad, but it's bound to
> happen to somebody. It was bad luck for Mayo and I feel
> bad for Euskaltel, but it can happen to anybody - even
> Lance."
>
> The pace was already balls-to-the-walls, so they did not
> pick it up to dump Mayo.

Scott Sunderland said the same thing:

"When we were on the big road going past the Arenberg forest
we were doing 70 km/h. It was always 55-60 km/h on the
flats. We hit the small roads there and it was like we were
at the end of a World Cup race. I was able to get myself
into a really good position actually. We had that big crash
on the left hand side with 5 km before the cobbles, but
luckily I was on the right hand side. I hit the first
section in 6-7th wheel and had good legs. But then 500m
before it ended, my back tyre went flat..."
 
On Wed, 07 Jul 2004 02:34:34 GMT, Darrell Criswell
<[email protected]> wrote:

>The unwritten rule more applies to someone not attacking
>immediately after they see a contender crash. If Ullrich
>had crashed next to Armsrong and then USPS had hit it hard
>and gotten significant time on him that would have been
>unsportsmanly.

Geez, any team at the front that waits before entering pave
is a team of fools. It just rachets up the danger for
everyone. You can wait on a mountain stage with most of the
peloton strung over God's green Earth, but doing something
damn stupid as possibly creating bottlenecks on a stretch
already designed to create a bit more of excitement is
simply stupid. About like a F-1 driver deciding to be
sportsmanlike by waiiting in the middle of a chicane.

Evidently, some people 'promote' sportmanship by making
'sportsmanship' = 'stupid'.

Curtis L. Russell Odenton, MD (USA) Just someone on
two wheels...
 
Kenny wrote:
> "benjo maso" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<2kvpudF6rku3U1@uni-
> berlin.de>...
>> "Gary" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> I believe the wait is expected for the yellow jersey
>>> only, although I may be mistaken about that.
>>
>>
>> You're mistaken. It has nothing to do with the yellow
>> jersey. If your rival has a fall, you're supposed not to
>> attack. It has been done several times in the Tour, but
>> is still - and rightly so - considered to be very
>> unsportsmanslike.
>>
>> Benjo Maso
>
> Yeah right! They didn't wait for Museeuw when he flatted
> on the last section pave this year's Paris-Roubaix. Please
> note that these circumstances are different. Last year LA
> fell because of an uncareful spectator. That's something
> that has nothing to do with the race, that is impossible
> to anticipate on.
>
I think earlier this year Benjo successfully argued that
LANCE fell from riding too close to the spectators, and this
was something that could have been avoided and, possibly,
anticipated.
 
Ernst Noch <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> > Excuse me, but if you don't understand the rules why are
> > you commenting on them?
>
> WTF? Where did I comment anything on USPS' or someone
> elses doing in this stage? Reread the post I was answering
> to, we were going on about if sportsmanship in general can
> be expected nowadays.

I just find it silly that you would expect it to be
sportsmanlike for the Tour hopefuls to allow someone to go
up the road while they're waiting for a guy who really never
had much chance to rise above 5th or so.

> I pointed to the most obvious situation where Jan clearly
> did show it - he would've even allowed Vino to gain time
> instead of not waiting for Beloki.

Do you suppose that Lance didn't hear Beloki's bones
snapping? I'm absolutely certain that Lance told Jan that
there was no waiting for Joseba.

> I couldn't see the stage (one of the reasons I didn't
> comment on it, btw.), but you really think that LA started
> to fear Jens Voigt as a GC contender, did I understand
> that right?

If you give someone a big enough lead even small time
domestiques can become a genuine threat. And Jens Voight is
hardly small time. Look, what if someone in the Giro was
foolish enough to have discounted Brad McGee and allowed him
to get a 5 minute lead? Was there anyone that would have
suggested before this last Giro that he was GC material?

My point is that GC leaders don't take advantage of other GC
leaders when possible but they don't give away the race for
some diaphanous view of what "sportsmanship" is either.
Remember what they're there for.

> > Let's not play games and pretend that somehow Mayo stood
> > much of a chance in the first place was stretching it.
> > But surely that'll show as the race progresses.
>
> Well, at least he his surely one of the better GC guys in
> the peloton. If you deny him to be (have been) a serious
> contender for the win, who's left?

There are only three men that have a practical hope for the
Tour. Lance, Jan and Tyler. Everyone else is fighting for a
placing below these three. And they all know it as well.

And the funny thing about all of this is that Mayo's drop
from the GC contension will probably make his job of doing
well in the mountain TT a great deal easier. Lance is still
going to try to win but he isn't worried that Mayo will
offer a threat to his Tour.

> You know what, I bet you that LA and JU have more
> respect from a Mayo who is is on even time with them
> than from a Jens Voigt who is 5, probably even 15, in
> front of them. And I like and admire Jens Voigt a lot,
> and don't like Mayo.

Respect? I don't think that any rider at LA or JU level
disrespect any rider. They know that all it takes is a flat
tire at the wrong time and they're just another finisher
instead of the star attraction.

As for Mayo, no doubt he's a great climber. There is also no
doubt that Jens Voigt is a rider who could inflict a lot of
damage given the right circumstances and certainly isn't
someone to take for granted.
 
Hey!

What if Lance and the Postals *had* waited for Mayo. Can you
imagine the whole peloton slowing down and riding piano as
they entered the pave? I can't. That would really be lame.

Besides ... Mayo just gained a virtual tour victory.
 
Bird <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 17:59:23 GMT, "Andy Coggan"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
> >Perhaps that should be amended to "used to be considered
> >to be very unsportmanlike". That is, given the amount of
> >$$ in pro cycling today, should we really expect such
> >traditions to be maintained? That would sort of be like
> >trying to maintain the original sense of "amateur" vs.
> >"professional", now wouldn't it?
>
> Yeah, but it gives me a nasty taste. Remember last year,
> the comments of Armstrong about Ullrich? Armstrong was
> ****** of, only because he thought for a while that
> Ullrich wouldn't wait after Armstongs clumsy fall in the
> Pyrenees.

Do you remember a year (or two?) before when Ullrich went
yard sale on a descent and Armstrong stopped to wait on him?
You may not agree with the criteria they use, but you can't
call him unsportsmanlike.

> And who was that showguy, telling and waving in front of
> everybody (and the cameras) that we ought to wait for
> "friend" Armstrong? Right, that was Hamilton, the guy who
> put his team in front today as well.

Every GC contender, including Mayo, had his team on the
front on the run into the pave. Mayo got unlucky. I don't
think anyone could have put the brakes on the peloton as
many teams had a good reason to push the pace. It's
unfortunate, but it's hardly unsportsmanlike.

> That's not "unsportmanlike", that stinks.

Roland
 
Tom Kunich wrote:

>>I pointed to the most obvious situation where Jan clearly
>>did show it - he would've even allowed Vino to gain time
>>instead of not waiting for Beloki.
>
>
> Do you suppose that Lance didn't hear Beloki's bones
> snapping? I'm absolutely certain that Lance told Jan that
> there was no waiting for Joseba.

We'll never know what LA heared or knew, and I'm not
assuming anything bad about his motives. In fact, I'm of the
same opinion as you are. But what we _know_ is that Jan
wanted to wait, although a direct competitor (and a more
dangerous than Voigt) was in front. This was all all I said,
that in this situation there was a clear showing of
sportsmanship.

> [snip]

>>>Let's not play games and pretend that somehow Mayo stood
>>>much of a chance in the first place was stretching it.
>>>But surely that'll show as the race progresses.
>>
>>Well, at least he his surely one of the better GC guys in
>>the peloton. If you deny him to be (have been) a serious
>>contender for the win, who's left?
>
>
> There are only three men that have a practical hope for
> the Tour. Lance, Jan and Tyler. Everyone else is
> fighting for a placing below these three. And they all
> know it as well.

To be honest, I'm not quite sure if Tyler Hamilton's last
year's performance in the tour was not a little bit
overrated, because of the circumstances and the nature of
his Bayonne win. If Vino had participated ... . I'm curious
how he will perform.

> [ snip ]

>>You know what, I bet you that LA and JU have more
>>respect from a Mayo who is is on even time with them
>>than from a Jens Voigt who is 5, probably even 15, in
>>front of them. And I like and admire Jens Voigt a lot,
>>and don't like Mayo.
>
>
> Respect? I don't think that any rider at LA or JU level
> disrespect any rider. They know that all it takes is a
> flat tire at the wrong time and they're just another
> finisher instead of the star attraction.

Sorry, let me put it another . I wanted to express that I
think that LA or JU will look more after a Mayo who's 5
minutes back than after a Voigt who is on even time.

> As for Mayo, no doubt he's a great climber. There is also
> no doubt that Jens Voigt is a rider who could inflict a
> lot of damage given the right circumstances and certainly
> isn't someone to take for granted.

I think LA and JU can put a lot of time into him in the
mountains if they have to. He may be able to withstand
for a stage or two, but after that he would be toast. And
they know it.
 
"Jonathan v.d. Sluis" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> "Gary" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
> news:[email protected]...
> > I believe the wait is expected for the yellow jersey
> > only, although I may be mistaken about that.
>
> There is no expected wait. Ullrich showed his class by
> waiting, Armstrong does not.

What a short memory you have. Go back a few years to when
Ullrich crashed hard on a descent. Armstrong waited.

Roland
 
Originally posted by Jonathan V.D. S
"David Off" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
news:[email protected]...
> Iban Mayo has been involved in a big pile-up just before
> the cobbles. His shorts are ripped and he has a big gash
> on his left thigh but seems to be regaining the bunch.

Ofcourse, that's the moment that the bunch of US Postal
assholes decide to ride a tempo that prevents Mayo from
rejoining the group. Armstrong expects everyone else to wait
for him, but God forbid that he would extend that courtesy
to others.

Well Jonathan, you are obviously not a Postal fan, which is fine. The thing you are failing to recognize is that two riders were away, one of whom was far up in the overall classification. They couldn't very well let them continue to open that gap.
 
"Richard Anderson" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
news:[email protected]...
> Hey!
>
> What if Lance and the Postals *had* waited for Mayo. Can
> you imagine the whole peloton slowing down and riding
> piano as they entered the pave? I can't. That would really
> be lame.

The whole discussion is slightly off the mark. The point is
not if everybody should have waited for Mayo. Of course that
would be silly. The point is if it's sportsmanlike to attack
or to accelerate if one of your rivals is down. Did the
Postals do that? Yes they did, said Jimmy Caspar
(www.letour.fr). If that's really the case it's
understandable, but from a fair play-perspective certainly
not very admirable.

Benjo Maso
 
On Wed, 07 Jul 2004 20:16:59 GMT, 1x1 wrote:
>thing you are failing to recognize is that two riders were
>away, one of whom was far up in the overall classification.
>They couldn't very well let them continue to open that gap.

If you you feel one them was (presumably Voigt) then the
other was too; they were only 17 seconds apart. In other
words, the time differences were still meaningless in that
stage. Besides, they would have been caught anyhow, their
lead had already shrunk from 6.5 to 3 minutes. Two man alone
for 130 km, with 70 km to go and a 3 minute lead, that's
quite hopeless. And both are definitely not podium threats.
 
benjo maso wrote:

> "Richard Anderson" <[email protected]> schreef in
> bericht news:[email protected]...
>
>>Hey!
>>
>>What if Lance and the Postals *had* waited for Mayo. Can
>>you imagine the whole peloton slowing down and riding
>>piano as they entered the pave? I can't. That would really
>>be lame.
>
>
>
> The whole discussion is slightly off the mark. The point
> is not if everybody should have waited for Mayo. Of course
> that would be silly. The point is if it's sportsmanlike to
> attack or to accelerate if one of your rivals is down. Did
> the Postals do that? Yes they did, said Jimmy Caspar
> (www.letour.fr). If that's really the case it's
> understandable, but from a fair play-perspective certainly
> not very admirable.
>
> Benjo Maso
>
>
In Mayo's interview in AS.com he seems to be saying (matter
of factly) that sportsmanship is suspended for the Tour.

http://tinyurl.com/3bew3
 

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