Mayo crashes before Pavé

"Bird" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

But Mr. Armstrong considers himself a god, so he will get
away with
it. But he makes no friends amongst the Spanish riders.
And that will be a big tactical mistake. Spanish teams
tend to help each other.

Yes the orange people are already organising a plastic bag
collection for him when the race reaches the Pyrénées... All
the best Dan Gregory ;-((

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"John Everett" <[email hidden]> schreef in bericht
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Quoted message said:

Jonathan v.d. Sluis said:

"Gary" <[email hidden]> schreef in bericht
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Quoted message said:

I believe the wait is expected for the yellow jersey
only, although I may be mistaken about that.

There is no expected wait. Ullrich showed his class by
waiting, Armstrong does not.

Have we suddenly forgotten when Lance waited for Jan
after he tumbled off the road on a descent a couple of
years ago?

No. But we haven't forgotten either the comment of Johan
Bruyneel: "He asked me if he should continue. I said he'd
better wait. The finish was much too far and Heras and
Ribeira were just behind." I other words: it had nothing to
do with sportmanship. Not that I blame him. As Rudy Altig
said: "We're pro's, not sportsmen". On the other hand, when
Armstrong seemd to wait for Ullrich, he recieved a lot of
goodwill. That was good for his reputaion and his sponsors
must have loved it. If possible riders should always try to
seem generous and fait, if not, they and so ir sponsors will
get bad publicity. Fortunately, there is almost always an
excuse for being a bit unsportsmanlike. Just as this time.

Benjo Maso

"Jonathan v.d. Sluis" <nl>...

Quoted message said:

"David Off" <david.off_-05.noos.net...

Quoted message said:

Iban Mayo has been involved in a big pile-up just before
the cobbles. His shorts are ripped and he has a big gash
on his left thigh but seems to be regaining the bunch.

Ofcourse, that's the moment that the bunch of US Postal
[censored] decide to ride a tempo that prevents Mayo from
rejoining the group. Armstrong expects everyone else to
wait for him, but God forbid that he would extend that
courtesy to others.

You obviously are a racing rookie or never have raced
yourself. To say something as ignorant of what you wrote
just proves it Jonathan. What a [censored].

-Ken

David Off <david.off_04.noos.net>...

Quoted message said:

Robert Chung said:

Marco Velo looks to be out -- blood all over his jersey.

absolutely horrible crash for Velo, a fractured clavicule.
Very nasty.

I had a worse crash last year with a bigger broken bone and
it sure wasn't "horrific."

May Marco Velo recover quickly and may Mayo now attack the
[censored] out of Armstrong and Ullrich and Hamilton and Levi!

-Ken

"Jonathan v.d. Sluis" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"Gary" <[email hidden]> schreef in bericht
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I believe the wait is expected for the yellow jersey
only, although I may be mistaken about that.

There is no expected wait. Ullrich showed his class by
waiting, Armstrong does not.

Jonathan.

What about the other 90 guys in the peloton who crushed the
slow Euskaltel squad today -- are they also classless?

When the fu** did Ullrich wait for Mayo today?

You are a nut Jonathan, and tunnel-visioned. Ken

Andy Coggan said:

Perhaps that should be amended to "used to be considered to
be very unsportmanlike". That is, given the amount of $$ in
pro cycling today, should we really expect such traditions
to be maintained? That would sort of be like trying to
maintain the original sense of "amateur" vs.
"professional", now wouldn't it?

Yeah, but it gives me a nasty taste. Remember last year, the
comments of Armstrong about Ullrich? Armstrong was [censored]
of, only because he thought for a while that Ullrich
wouldn't wait after Armstongs clumsy fall in the Pyrenees.

And who was that showguy, telling and waving in front of
everybody (and the cameras) that we ought to wait for
"friend" Armstrong? Right, that was Hamilton, the guy who
put his team in front today as well.

That's not "unsportmanlike", that stinks.

John Everett said:

Have we suddenly forgotten when Lance waited for Jan after
he tumbled off the road on a descent a couple of years ago?

No.

And have we suddenly forgotten that on that day Ullrich was
way behind Armstrong in the CG?

benjo maso said:

Fortunately, there is almost always an excuse for being a
bit unsportsmanlike. Just as this time.

If Mayo had been in front of the accident, but
Christophe Moreau and Thor Hushvold were behind, should
the front group have waited? If Mayo and Hushvold were
ahead of the accident, but Moreau was behind, should the
front have waited?

Andy Coggan said:

According to the cyclingnews.com coverage, T-Mobile was
also contributing.

Not in the begin, when the difference was being made.

(according to the broadcast on my own television)

On 7/6/04 8:56 AM, in article
[email hidden], "David Off"

Quoted message said:

Bird said:

Top Sirloin said:

> But the teams of Arrmstrong and Hamilton were doing the
> job, specially in the begin, when the difference was
> being build up.

And your point is? None them were going to [censored] away the
opportunity.

My point is Ullrichs team was _not_ doing the job.
Armstrong and Hamilton decide it would be nice to get an
extra benefit from Mayo's fall.

I saw at least one Telekom guy with the US postal team
once they realised that Mayo and co. were off the back.

T-Mobile WAS doing the work too!

16:19 CEST    170km/40km to go The Mayo group are coming
back towards the leading bunch, but only slowly - it
doesn't look as though they're going to get back before
the second section of pave. T-Mobile, US Postal and
Phonak are all working hard on the front (whatever
happened to not attacking favourites who crash, I hear
you ask - and have no answer). Illes Baleares have moved
up to help in the chasing group, to work for Denis
Menchov. The sprinters' teams are all taking it nice and
easy for the moment.

Top Sirloin said:

Bird said:

My point is Ullrichs team was _not_ doing the job.
Armstrong and Hamilton decide it would be nice to get an
extra benefit from Mayo's fall.

Did you watch it? All I have is stuff like this to go on:

I did watch it.

Quoted message said:

16:47 CEST 197km/13km to go Still Phonak, T-Mobile and (to
a lesser extent) US Postal leading the front group.

13 km. before the finish? That was not the moment the
difference was being made, is it?

I am talking about the moment directly after Mayo's
fall. That is, just before and after the passages over
that cobbles.

Quoted message said:

No point, I'm just upset at the [censored] who think everyone
should stop on the pave for a potty break because one of
the "favorites" crashed.

Who is the [censored]? Did you remember Armstrong and Hamilton,
last year? Those were the [censored], when they thought for a
while that Ullrich didn't wait for Armstrng, after his
clumsy fall in the Pyrenees. (Ullrich did wait, but Mr.
Armstrong was nevertheless complaining about a lack of
sportsmanship)

As I said before, that stinks.

John Everett said:

I'm guessing at that point they still didn't know Mayo had
gone down

Only if their radios or the team car TV weren't working...

On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 17:02:54 GMT, "Michael" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

T-Mobile and US Postal joined together and put some time
into Iban Mayo. I wonder if Lance and Jan are giving Mayo a
little payback for last year when Mayo, Basso, and Zubeldia
sat on his wheel up Luz Ardiden and Mayo went ahead and
took some of the time bonus. That was truly a crummy think
for the Spanish riders to do.

Had it been on the flat, maybe. Sitting behind someone on a
climb doesn't gain any particular physical advantage: it's
just helps set a target pace. If you can outsprint them at
the top, then you've done the work to be there, fair enough.

(Of course, on the flat it's generally your own fault if you
are daft enough to tow people to the line anyway)

Roger

may Mayo now attack

Quoted message said:

the [censored] out of Armstrong and Ullrich and Hamilton
and Levi!

He's a cert for the KoM now.

Regards! Stephen

"Ted B" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On a cobblestone section, the safest place to be is at the
front. Naturally, the way to ensure your placement at the
front is to elevate the pace significantly. Given the
placement of the two most experienced USPS riders on
cobblestones (Eki and Hincapie), this strategy was
unquestionably planned in advance.

Whether Mayo crashed or didn't crash, it did not alter the
strategy. It was only a matter of circumstance that Mayo
ended up in the lagging half of the peloton. Furthermore,
given the protective measures of USPS, Phonak, and T-
Mobile for their respective leaders, it would have been
faulty for any of them to compromise the safety of their
leaders (top GC contenders) by sitting up in this
dangerous section.

Excellent point!

I suspect that if they had been descending a col, they might
have waited...but, on the pave, no way.

GG

Steve McGinty said:

may Mayo now attack

Quoted message said:

the [censored] out of Armstrong and Ullrich and Hamilton
and Levi!

He's a cert for the KoM now.

Regards! Stephen

He is quoted by CN as saying a podium place is gone. But all
he has to do is hold onto the winner the rest of the race,
and he will finish within Vino's time (3rd) last year:

cyclingnews.comtour03Open ↗
ts/stage20

4 min down is quite normal for 3rd place. He's very much in
podium contention.

Dan

Bird said:

Andy Coggan said:

Perhaps that should be amended to "used to be considered
to be very unsportmanlike". That is, given the amount of
$$ in pro cycling today, should we really expect such
traditions to be maintained? That would sort of be like
trying to maintain the original sense of "amateur" vs.
"professional", now wouldn't it?

Yeah, but it gives me a nasty taste. Remember last year,
the comments of Armstrong about Ullrich? Armstrong was
[censored] of, only because he thought for a while that
Ullrich wouldn't wait after Armstongs clumsy fall in the
Pyrenees.

And who was that showguy, telling and waving in front of
everybody (and the cameras) that we ought to wait for
"friend" Armstrong? Right, that was Hamilton, the guy who
put his team in front today as well.

That's not "unsportmanlike", that stinks.

Often forgotten is also the discussion between Jan and LA
after Beloki's crash (when at least Jan clearly didn't know
Joseba was out). This at least showed that Ullrich still
believes into this ideal, he even would have let Vino gain
more time. Or you argue that this was a sign that he is not
a real winner, compared to Lance.

Bird said:

Who is the [censored]? Did you remember Armstrong and
Hamilton, last year? Those were the [censored], when they
thought for a while that Ullrich didn't wait for Armstrng,
after his clumsy fall in the Pyrenees. (Ullrich did wait,
but Mr. Armstrong was nevertheless complaining about a
lack of sportsmanship)

As I said before, that stinks.

There's a difference between a large group pushing the pace
on a dangerous section and a small group agreeing not to
attack after the yellow jersey goes down because of
spectator intervention.

Of course your choice of words shows no bias at all
towards LA.

--
Scott Johnson / scottjohnson at kc dot rr dot com

Bird said:

13 km. before the finish? That was not the moment the
difference was being made, is it?

Also mentioned in previous commentary entries IIRC.

Quoted message said:

I am talking about the moment directly after Mayo's
fall. That is, just before and after the passages over
that cobbles.

At that point the bunch was lined out on Hincapie's wheel,
not much scope for other teams' contributions. As soon as
the bunch reformed into a normal road pattern after the Erre
cobbles, T-Mobile and Phonak riders were up there working.

Roger

Dan Connelly <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@i_e_e_e.o_r_g> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

AMG said:

Of course, Ullrich isn't waiting here either.

Perhaps it is assumed that the second group will close
the gap by the end of the stage? In that case, waiting
or not makes no difference. We'll see in a short while
how this ends up.

Don't be silly. They're riding to put time on Mayo and
everyone else in the second group. It's about winning
the Tour.

The justification, I suspect, is that this was a split
made on the pave. Splits on the pave are expected -- part
of the game. There's no gentleman's agreement to
neutralize the cobbles.

Also, was Euskaltel-Euskadi ever expected to do well today?
I'd say that the result today was a fair trade for the TTT
rule. But Mayo's comments afterwards are too defeatist. He
should stay motivated, because the Tour is not over. It's
only the fourth day, and the GC will turn completely upside
down three or four more times before what remains of the
peloton reaches Paris. Mayo has shown everyone that he can
be competitive day after day after day... now he has to
apply it to the Tour.

-Sonarrat.