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Meeting Floyd

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Cycling Equipment
Published
15 April 2007
Last activity
27 April 2007
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Mark Hickey
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  1. In article <[email hidden]>,

    Doug Taylor said:

    On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 21:07:56 -0700, Mark Hickey <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    It was PURE "tech", IMHO - and a "tech" that has more impact on our
    sport than spoke tension discussions (for example). It also involves
    the physiology of the motor, which is by FAR the biggest technical
    performance factor in cycling (makes even red frames pale in
    comparison).

    Sure, Mark, pure tech. In Floyd's case: the technical aspects of a
    motor running on banned fuel. As plain as frickin day, whether you
    want to admit it or not.

    But crickey, Beam, you've been around long enough to know that usenet
    is like a knife fight: "No rules."

    Whining about irrelevance is worse than irrelevance.

    Then let's get this knife fight started.

    --
    Michael Press

  2. Mark Hickey said:
    G.T. said:

    "Doug Taylor" <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:

    Sure, Mark, pure tech. In Floyd's case: the technical aspects of a
    motor running on banned fuel. As plain as frickin day, whether you
    want to admit it or not.

    Quoted message said:

    And you've come to that conclusion how?

    I'd guess by studiously avoiding any facts about the case other than
    10 second sound bites on CNN. Anyone who can read (and has any
    interest in learning the actual details) can't look at the information
    and conclude that it's not a virtual certainty that Floyd's sample
    shouldn't have tested positive.

    Hmm. I think I agree with Mark, but the triple-negative sentence
    construction makes it a bit tricky to tell! (At least, after a late-
    night glass of wine!)

    When the story first came out, I immediately thought "This makes no
    sense. Why would he use testosterone? He'd know it wouldn't have a
    performance benefit, and he'd know it would be caught immediately."

    The details of the French labs' sample handling, the leaked results,
    etc. all confirm it in my mind. I'm betting Floyd's innocent, and I
    hope the legal proceedings make that perfectly clear.

    - Frank Krygowski

  3. Quoted message said:
    Mark Hickey said:
    G.T. said:

    "Doug Taylor" <[email hidden]> wrote

    > Sure, Mark, pure tech. In Floyd's case: the technical aspects of a
    > motor running on banned fuel. As plain as frickin day, whether you
    > want to admit it or not.
    And you've come to that conclusion how?


    I'd guess by studiously avoiding any facts about the case other than
    10 second sound bites on CNN. Anyone who can read (and has any
    interest in learning the actual details) can't look at the information
    and conclude that it's not a virtual certainty that Floyd's sample
    shouldn't have tested positive.

    Hmm. I think I agree with Mark, but the triple-negative sentence
    construction makes it a bit tricky to tell! (At least, after a late-
    night glass of wine!)

    Yeah, I'm still re-reading that, thankfully I already know his position,
    otherwise I'd still be lost.

    Greg

    --
    The ticketbastard Tax Tracker:
    http://www.ticketmastersucks.org/tracker.html

    Dethink to survive - Mclusky

  4. In article <[email hidden]>,

    G.T. said:

    "Doug Taylor" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 21:07:56 -0700, Mark Hickey <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    It was PURE "tech", IMHO - and a "tech" that has more impact on our
    sport than spoke tension discussions (for example). It also involves
    the physiology of the motor, which is by FAR the biggest technical
    performance factor in cycling (makes even red frames pale in
    comparison).

    Sure, Mark, pure tech. In Floyd's case: the technical aspects of a
    motor running on banned fuel. As plain as frickin day, whether you
    want to admit it or not.

    And you've come to that conclusion how?

    Greg

    This recent article on Fat Cyclist demonstrates a similar mechanism:L

    http://www.fatcyclist.com/2007/04/06/2007-tour-de-france-winner-stripped-
    of-title/

    "2007 Tour De [sic] France Winner Stripped of Title"

    "While we do not yet know who will win the Tour, I feel it is vital we
    acknowledge that person as the pinnacle of strength, conditioning, and
    personal sacrifice he undoubtedly must be.²

    ³Next,² continued Clerc, ³I¹d like to take this opportunity to accuse
    the aforementioned winner of using unscrupulous and nefarious methods to
    obtain this prize, and hereby accuse him ‹ whoever he is ‹ of doping.²

    [...]

    Concluded the Chairman of WADA, ³I think it¹s time we stop beating
    around the bush and be direct about this: If you win the Tour de France,
    you are a doper. Pure and simple. So while I admire the future winner of
    the Tour de France, I have nothing but contempt for the unethical way in
    which you will go about winning.²

    [&c....]

    --
    Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
    "I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
    to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

  5. Quoted post said:

    once upon, we went on down the road to east jesus to a lecture by the
    electric guitar pygmy: he was outstanding (but short) and well
    remembered.
    highly recommended.

    Do elaborate.

  6. G.T. said:
    Quoted message said:
    Mark Hickey said:

    "G.T." <[email hidden]> wrote:
    > "Doug Taylor" <[email hidden]> wrote
    >
    >> Sure, Mark, pure tech. In Floyd's case: the technical aspects of a
    >> motor running on banned fuel. As plain as frickin day, whether you
    >> want to admit it or not.
    > And you've come to that conclusion how?
    I'd guess by studiously avoiding any facts about the case other than
    10 second sound bites on CNN. Anyone who can read (and has any
    interest in learning the actual details) can't look at the information
    and conclude that it's not a virtual certainty that Floyd's sample
    shouldn't have tested positive.

    Hmm. I think I agree with Mark, but the triple-negative sentence
    construction makes it a bit tricky to tell! (At least, after a late-
    night glass of wine!)

    Yeah, I'm still re-reading that, thankfully I already know his position,
    otherwise I'd still be lost.

    Well, it made sense in my head (just went through a few phase
    reversals traveling to my fingers, I suspect). That really IS a
    tortured sentence, isn't it?

    Mark Hickey
    Habanero Cycles
    http://www.habcycles.com
    Home of the $795 ti frame


  7. Quoted message said:

    Do elaborate.

    off broadway, off the wall, on the rim, out of time, off beat comedic
    evangelism
    tour de force
    two headed goat meets ivy covered pink brick

  8. Quoted post said:
    Quoted message said:

    Do elaborate.

    off broadway, off the wall, on the rim, out of time, off beat comedic
    evangelism
    tour de force
    two headed goat meets ivy covered pink brick

    landis jousts against the glory of france!
    like whaling but less productive.

  9. On Tue, 17 Apr 2007 17:57:24 -0700, "G.T." <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:


    "Doug Taylor" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 21:07:56 -0700, Mark Hickey <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    It was PURE "tech", IMHO - and a "tech" that has more impact on our
    sport than spoke tension discussions (for example). It also involves
    the physiology of the motor, which is by FAR the biggest technical
    performance factor in cycling (makes even red frames pale in
    comparison).

    Sure, Mark, pure tech. In Floyd's case: the technical aspects of a
    motor running on banned fuel. As plain as frickin day, whether you
    want to admit it or not.

    And you've come to that conclusion how?


    By listening to the lame, evasive, contradictory, half-hearted,
    dog-ate-my-homework explanations and excuses he came up with in
    interviews at the time.

    If he's not guilty, then I'm a poor judge of character. I can live
    with that. If he is guilty, then you all bit hook line and sinker
    into the fantasy that cyclists can compete at full strength in grand
    tours, day after day, without a little help from their (chemical)
    friends.

    But then, Mark believes in an imaginary friend, so it would not be the
    first time for him.

  10. Doug Taylor said:

    On Tue, 17 Apr 2007 17:57:24 -0700, "G.T." <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:


    "Doug Taylor" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 21:07:56 -0700, Mark Hickey <[email hidden]>
    wrote:

    >It was PURE "tech", IMHO - and a "tech" that has more impact on our
    >sport than spoke tension discussions (for example). It also involves
    >the physiology of the motor, which is by FAR the biggest technical
    >performance factor in cycling (makes even red frames pale in
    >comparison).

    Sure, Mark, pure tech. In Floyd's case: the technical aspects of a
    motor running on banned fuel. As plain as frickin day, whether you
    want to admit it or not.

    And you've come to that conclusion how?


    By listening to the lame, evasive, contradictory, half-hearted,
    dog-ate-my-homework explanations and excuses he came up with in
    interviews at the time.

    He talked about that Saturday. Imagine being in that situation -
    suddenly (and without ANY of the LEGAL protocol being followed, he's
    confronted by the PRESS with allegations of illegal substances and/or
    testosterone levels). The smart thing to do would have been to just
    say nothing, but he felt that he had nothing to hide, and tried to put
    forth some possible scenarios that might have caused it.

    Quoted message said:

    If he's not guilty, then I'm a poor judge of character. I can live
    with that. If he is guilty, then you all bit hook line and sinker
    into the fantasy that cyclists can compete at full strength in grand
    tours, day after day, without a little help from their (chemical)
    friends.

    As long as the lab is run as poorly as it is, we'll never know, will
    we?

    Quoted message said:

    But then, Mark believes in an imaginary friend, so it would not be the
    first time for him.

    Have you even read the documents? I didn't think so. And BTW, it's
    the sign of a weak argument to slide into ad hominem attacks.

    Mark Hickey
    Habanero Cycles
    http://www.habcycles.com
    Home of the $795 ti frame

  11. Mark Hickey said:

    Doug Taylor <[email hidden]> wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    But then, Mark believes in an imaginary friend, so it would not be
    the first time for him.

    Quoted message said:

    Have you even read the documents? I didn't think so. And BTW, it's
    the sign of a weak argument to slide into ad hominem attacks.

    If you were Muslim, Mark, ol' Dougy would be guilty of hate speech. (And if
    he drew a cartoon, he'd have to go into hiding.)

    BS (not)

  12. what we need here is balance! someone who will step up to the plate
    and say: i paid $35 and I met Landis and he's a subhuman slime bag.

  13. Quoted post said:

    what we need here is balance! someone who will step up to the plate
    and say: i paid $35 and I met Landis and he's a subhuman slime bag.

    Heh... yeah, we'll be waiting (BTW, he's about as unassuming as you
    can get - seems to be a genuinely nice guy, though I realize that it's
    also possible he bites the heads off puppies on full moons).

    Mark Hickey
    Habanero Cycles
    http://www.habcycles.com
    Home of the $795 ti frame

  14. no demonstrations by angry young mothers carrying anti abortion signs,
    copies of TV Guide?
    Oral stays home? No Newt?
    no rock throwing farmers rode in on tractors from Kansas to hoot,
    throw manure?
    no snipers on roof tops?
    no Moonies waving Glock's and copies of Finnegan's Wake?
    BORING!

  15. In article <[email hidden]>,

    Mark Hickey said:
    Doug Taylor said:

    On Tue, 17 Apr 2007 17:57:24 -0700, "G.T." <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:


    "Doug Taylor" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...
    > On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 21:07:56 -0700, Mark Hickey
    > <[email hidden]> wrote:
    >
    >>It was PURE "tech", IMHO - and a "tech" that has more impact on
    >>our sport than spoke tension discussions (for example). It also
    >>involves the physiology of the motor, which is by FAR the biggest
    >>technical performance factor in cycling (makes even red frames
    >>pale in comparison).
    >
    > Sure, Mark, pure tech. In Floyd's case: the technical aspects
    > of a motor running on banned fuel. As plain as frickin day,
    > whether you want to admit it or not.

    And you've come to that conclusion how?


    By listening to the lame, evasive, contradictory, half-hearted,
    dog-ate-my-homework explanations and excuses he came up with in
    interviews at the time.

    He talked about that Saturday. Imagine being in that situation -
    suddenly (and without ANY of the LEGAL protocol being followed, he's
    confronted by the PRESS with allegations of illegal substances and/or
    testosterone levels). The smart thing to do would have been to just
    say nothing, but he felt that he had nothing to hide, and tried to
    put forth some possible scenarios that might have caused it.

    He'd have been better off keeping his mouth shut rather than spouting
    off ever more wild-ass conspiracy theories.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    If he's not guilty, then I'm a poor judge of character. I can live
    with that. If he is guilty, then you all bit hook line and sinker
    into the fantasy that cyclists can compete at full strength in grand
    tours, day after day, without a little help from their (chemical)
    friends.

    As long as the lab is run as poorly as it is, we'll never know, will
    we?

    Well, we really only have Floyd's legal team's word for that. The lab
    that Floyd wanted to have test the B samples here in the US stated that
    they use the same procedures that are used by the French lab. The US
    lab stated that WADA's standards are very stringent and very closely
    enforced.

    IMHO the French lab has serious procedural problems with how it manages
    information. Adverse test results should never, ever be leaked from the
    lab to the press- those results should be announced only by the
    sanctioning body, and only after the athlete has been notified. The
    French lab has screwed up on that in very high profile ways a number of
    times.

    That said, I think Floyd has grounds for a libel lawsuit against [censored]
    Pound, who is not exactly the exemplar of appropriate behavior in
    carrying out his duties. He makes Donald Rumsfeld look circumspect.
    Doping cases are invariably tried in the press and only in the courts as
    an afterthought, and that is a problem with WADA.

    Did Floyd dope? My cynical side says they all- or almost all- dope,
    from the lowliest gregario to the biggest star. They all- or almost
    all- dope in an organized fashion managed by the team doctor. Every
    directeur sportif is deeply involved in doping. It has always been thus
    in professional cycling, if you read the histories. For that matter, it
    has pretty much been thus in all professional and Olympic sports. As
    the surveillance gets more sophisticated, the dopers stay one or two
    steps ahead of them. If the public wants athletes to appear superhuman,
    athletes will resort to doping. Without appearing superhuman, they
    aren't going to get paid millions of dollars a year.

  16. Tim McNamara said:

    They all- or almost
    all- dope in an organized fashion managed by the team doctor. Every
    directeur sportif is deeply involved in doping. It has always been thus
    in professional cycling, if you read the histories.

    I don't think that's true about the team organization. There are
    directors who turn a blind eye, or even encourage the riders to dope,
    but on their own, for deniablity.

    The best teams probably operate in the fashion you describe.

    --
    JT
    ****************************
    Remove "remove" to reply
    Visit http://www.jt10000.com
    ****************************

  17. Dans le message de news:[email hidden],
    Tim McNamara <[email hidden]> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :

    Very few nits to pick.

    Quoted message said:

    IMHO the French lab has serious procedural problems with how it
    manages information. Adverse test results should never, ever be
    leaked from the lab to the press- those results should be announced
    only by the sanctioning body, and only after the athlete has been
    notified.

    You may recall that significant results have not been "leaked" by this lab,
    but rather have been given following a release from the athlete or WADA. In
    other moments, it has been the WADA or UCI that has made information public,
    first.

    Quoted message said:

    The French lab has screwed up on that in very high profile
    ways a number of times.

    I really don't recall this specific sin, but I also can't add anything to
    the "scientific" arguments. In any case where the legitimacy of a test is
    questioned, the challenge must to go the science, the competence, or the
    veracity. There will always be two sides, at least, and the procedure for
    arriving at a judgment (disciplinary sanction or not) is in the rules they
    all agree to play by. The TAS procedural rules, and the substantial rules
    of the disciplinary review, are enormously unfair to any athlete in any
    sport. However, in order to compete in the organizer's league, the athletes
    are compelled to accept that.

    Just in relation to France, we do know that the most significant _criminal_
    sports doping proceedings have been brought in this country, and that the
    sanctions have been dealt out. This kind of legal violation is not quite at
    the level of axe-murders, but then again, it is trendy, and it masks the
    overall incapacity of nearly every nation to stem other criminal drug
    delcits. If every member of the FFC uses performance enhancing drugs, that
    is microscopic compared to the general population's use of illicit drugs.
    For the latter, there is virtually no enforcement against end users. What
    about where you are ?

    Quoted message said:

    That said, I think Floyd has grounds for a libel lawsuit against [censored]
    Pound, who is not exactly the exemplar of appropriate behavior in
    carrying out his duties. He makes Donald Rumsfeld look circumspect.

    I don't know what he has written, but often in speaking, and being quoted,
    one can argue that tone and context are not reproduced in print, so the
    speaker can argue that the implications of his speech were improperly
    arrived at. Nonetheless, it is rather easy to speak of a fellow lawyer
    badly, and I reserve my comments on Pound to private discussion. They are
    not nice comments.

    Quoted message said:

    Doping cases are invariably tried in the press and only in the courts
    as an afterthought, and that is a problem with WADA.

    As with many prosecutions of crimes, the prosecutor may lay out the
    strongest points of his side, in the strongest language, for public
    consumption. I am not really certain of the exact level of prosecutorial
    immunity Pound may enjoy in his quango. It has not yet been tested.

    Quoted message said:

    Without appearing
    superhuman, they aren't going to get paid millions of dollars a year.

    Yup.
    --
    Bonne route !

    Sandy
    Verneuil-sur-Seine FR


  18. Quoted message said:

    Bonne route !

    yeah! cliff bars, no-doz all around
    and pass some to the lawyers over there

  19. Quoted post said:
    Quoted message said:

    Bonne route !

    yeah! cliff bars, no-doz all around
    and pass some to the lawyers over there

    The rules in cycling appear to be "flexible" to say the least. for
    examples:
    Announce final stage of Tour de France is neutralized and GC race is
    over, then announce it is not after a dramatic stage win Vinokourov
    and Levi looses a place.
    Tour of Ca. put Levi in yellow AFTER the results of stage.

    Disqualify two racers crossing under a RR crossing barrier, but not
    two that later did the same.

    Funny how in most cases we are talking about home team advantage here.
    I will not even mention the unfair changes in Bike rules without
    notification of riders or "random" rider tests.

  20. ok call the cops. we'll committ wayne. wayne, wanna room with al
    unser?

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