[melb] Casey Fields thoughts

Discussion in 'Australia and New Zealand' started by Bleve, May 1, 2006.

  1. Stewart

    Stewart Guest

    There was a letter in the local paper begging the council to
    investigate development of the rail line beyond Cranbourne Rail
    Station into a bike path to bring it out at Casey Fields and in
    particular at the course. Suggested that it would not be an expensive
    project.
    Maybe others interested could add pressure to council?

    Stewart.

    On 2 May 2006 00:08:15 -0700, "Bleve" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >
    >rooman wrote:
    >> Bleve Wrote:
    >> > Here's a map of the place. The crit course is at the bottom of the map
    >> > (the far southern end of the map) :
    >> >
    >> >
    >> > http://www.casey.vic.gov.au/caseyfields/article.asp?Item=3596

    >>
    >>
    >> yeah, checked this out some time ago, there's really even space for a
    >> velodrome next to the crit course on one of those ovals (like
    >> Cheslea's), I see, bet they didnt have that in the master plan!

    >
    >I'd like to see a sealed path from the entrance to the track. Not
    >necessarily the road, but a bike path would be good. I prefer to ride
    >to races when I can, but that last 2km is ... unpleasant.
    >
    >> good to see an initiative, just hope they keep going and finish it as a
    >> useful facility and a true benefit to cycling, and not an excuse to say,
    >> "why give you guys facillities when you won't use it", cos it does stand
    >> a real chance of being dismissed by many ...I'm sure the clubs will work
    >> out the best way to run events as youve suggested...not a big deal, just
    >> a change to their comfort zones.

    >
    >There'll be a lot of experimenting with it I hope, and we'll make
    >something work. It's a nice track, it's just in outer woop woop, and
    >not that many riders, I think, will be keen to drive for over an hour
    >each way to ride a crit.
    >
    >It would make an *excellent* cyclocross facility though .... mud, road
    >.. sealed road ...
    >
    >> down the track when they finish nearby construction do some effective
    >> landscaping and make improvements to the amenities , access, parking,
    >> layout, viewing, and what not envisaged in the master plan it could be
    >> something, meantime we hang on and try not to get caught on the soft
    >> sticky muddy shoulders.

    >
    >It's better to hit mud than a gutter, IMO :)
     


  2. Bleve

    Bleve Guest

    Shane Stanley wrote:
    > In article <[email protected]>,
    > "Bleve" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > > it's just in outer woop woop

    >
    > As in slap-bang in the middle of the fastest-growing region in the
    > country. Councils catering to local riders should be encouraged, IMO,
    > especially when they're trying to cater to young riders.


    Yes, but it's not a big (yet ...) cycling area. It's boganville at the
    moment.

    Maybe it will be one day, and this will help, but it won't get the St
    Kilda riders, of which there are a -lot-. I'm not trying to discourage
    it, but as a replacement for VFL park (which is how it got funded)
    it's just too far away for a lot of riders. *I* intend to support it
    by racing there as much as I can. No-one who works in the city will be
    able to get there for twilighers over summer, for example.
     
  3. In aus.bicycle on 2 May 2006 04:52:47 -0700
    Bleve <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > Shane Stanley wrote:
    >> As in slap-bang in the middle of the fastest-growing region in the
    >> country. Councils catering to local riders should be encouraged, IMO,
    >> especially when they're trying to cater to young riders.

    >
    > Yes, but it's not a big (yet ...) cycling area. It's boganville at the
    > moment.


    Hmm.. is it my imagination, or is cycling something done mostly in
    city and inner suburban areas?

    Or is it more a demographic thing? That the wealthier suburbs have
    more people who ride bikes and most of those are inner ring, but some
    outer ring middle class burbs have bike riders?

    Are there any stats on where the most cycling is done? And how
    cycling happens in an area it didn't happen in before?

    Zebee
     
  4. Bleve

    Bleve Guest

    Zebee Johnstone wrote:
    > In aus.bicycle on 2 May 2006 04:52:47 -0700
    > Bleve <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >
    > > Shane Stanley wrote:
    > >> As in slap-bang in the middle of the fastest-growing region in the
    > >> country. Councils catering to local riders should be encouraged, IMO,
    > >> especially when they're trying to cater to young riders.

    > >
    > > Yes, but it's not a big (yet ...) cycling area. It's boganville at the
    > > moment.

    >
    > Hmm.. is it my imagination, or is cycling something done mostly in
    > city and inner suburban areas?


    I'm not referring to generic riding of bikes, this is a racing track.

    > Or is it more a demographic thing? That the wealthier suburbs have
    > more people who ride bikes and most of those are inner ring, but some
    > outer ring middle class burbs have bike riders?


    That would be consistant with my totally subjective and unresearched
    opinion, yes :)
    I think it's cultural. Bogans want SS dunnydores or HSV's or WRX's,
    not Colnagos or Treks or Pinarellos.
     
  5. In article <[email protected]>,
    "Bleve" <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Yes, but it's not a big (yet ...) cycling area.


    Chickens and eggs. And in terms of school cyclists, it's probably the
    "biggest" in Victoria.
    >
    > but as a replacement for VFL park (which is how it got funded)


    No; that's how it got _partly_ funded. The City of Casey certainly
    didn't approach it that way, and they put up the most expensive thing:
    the land.

    --
    Shane Stanley
     
  6. In article <[email protected]>,
    Zebee Johnstone <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Hmm.. is it my imagination, or is cycling something done mostly in
    > city and inner suburban areas?


    The _beginnings_ of this particular track is interesting. A few years
    ago, an enthusiast at one of the local schools set up an HPV program.
    Kids designed them, built them, and raced them. The program turned out
    to be highly successful on all sorts of levels, and other nearby schools
    started to get involved. It's now a very big thing in the area, and it's
    also helping encourage cycling in the schools.

    But they needed somewhere to train; they were using places like around
    the Cardinia Shire offices. So they approached the local council, got
    others involved, and the end result is this new track (OK, I'm
    siimplifying), for which the ratepayers of Casey have paid a good deal
    more than the ratepayers of Black Rock, St Kilda and Vermont.

    --
    Shane Stanley
     
  7. flyingdutch

    flyingdutch New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2004
    Messages:
    5,700
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    0
    true. Casey have a annual bike budget probably greater than all other Melbourne councils combined !!! (excluding MCC's 1.9M altho possibly not!).
    They should be encouraged.
     
  8. Friday

    Friday Guest

    Marx SS wrote:
    > Night racing?
    > Or is racing road bikes in the dark against a rule?
    >
    >


    I remember seeing a interview with "Oppy" and he said the longer stages
    of the Tour de France used to start at midnight. he said they rode in
    darkness without lights and crashes were common.
     
  9. Bleve

    Bleve Guest

    Shane Stanley wrote:
    > In article <[email protected]>,
    > Zebee Johnstone <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > > Hmm.. is it my imagination, or is cycling something done mostly in
    > > city and inner suburban areas?

    >
    > The _beginnings_ of this particular track is interesting. A few years
    > ago, an enthusiast at one of the local schools set up an HPV program.
    > Kids designed them, built them, and raced them. The program turned out
    > to be highly successful on all sorts of levels, and other nearby schools
    > started to get involved. It's now a very big thing in the area, and it's
    > also helping encourage cycling in the schools.


    Yep. I've been to the Wonth HPV race (we raced it in '05), it's a good
    thing. There was a lot of school teams there, mainly it seems, from
    around Berwick etc, which is close to Casey.

    > But they needed somewhere to train; they were using places like around
    > the Cardinia Shire offices. So they approached the local council, got
    > others involved, and the end result is this new track (OK, I'm
    > siimplifying)



    Significant simplification, yes.

    I think you're misunderstanding what I wrote about the course. I am
    specifically *not* saying it's a bad thing, I am specifically saying it
    *is* a good thing in general. My observations are not any attempt to
    be negative about the course or the intentions of those that built,
    designed and paid for it. It comes across to me that you think I'm
    whinging about it. Far from it.

    What I am saying is that at the moment (and it'll be great if this
    changes) the vast majority of riders that attend crits in the eastern
    combine are from the city and they are less likely to make the trip
    simply because it is so far from the city. They will travel further for
    road races, but I don't think will do so for crits. Cranbourne is woop
    woop, no matter how fast it's growing or how many schools there are
    there. This is a fact. My concern is that Casey have built this track,
    and the eastern combine clubs may have been a little ... liberal ..
    with their claims for the justification of the track and maybe not many
    people will actually race there. I *hope* this won't happen, but I can
    say with some certainty that a lot of the riders who ride Glenvale will
    not make the trip. I talk to a lot of them, this is not something I'm
    making up. It's a racing and training track, it'll be a shame if it
    doesn't get used as much as it could be if it was somewhere else, but
    that doesn't mean it shouldn't have been built or that it's a bad
    thing. I'm just looking at it from the perspective of how it fits in
    with my riders and the cyclists I work with and know.

    The state government chipped in $500,000 (I think?) specifically to
    replace the facility at VFL park. Casey also contributed a lot, but
    your land value claim is disingenious, the course is wrapped around the
    edge of a huge mixed sporting complex, the land would have been
    parkland or yet another carpark otherwise.

    I hope that the ratepayers of Casey get their moneys' worth out of it
    in some form. I'm sure the local HPV people will have a ball on it,
    it's a great circuit for HPV racing, that's for sure. The big question
    for them (Casey) is what are the kids and local adults interested in
    riding?

    We (Blackburn CC) tried for some time to get a decent crit running at
    METEC (driver training roads in Kilsyth, closed road, interesting
    track, about the same width as Casey but a bit shorter) but even that
    is too far from the city for the bulk of the riders who race, and it's
    closer than Casey.
     
  10. In article <[email protected]>,
    "Bleve" <[email protected]> wrote:

    > I've been to the Wonth HPV race (we raced it in '05), it's a good
    > thing. There was a lot of school teams there, mainly it seems, from
    > around Berwick etc, which is close to Casey.


    Berwick is *in* Casey; it's basically the old cities of Cranbourne and
    Berwick combined.

    > I think you're misunderstanding what I wrote about the course. I am
    > specifically *not* saying it's a bad thing, I am specifically saying it
    > *is* a good thing in general. My observations are not any attempt to
    > be negative about the course or the intentions of those that built,
    > designed and paid for it. It comes across to me that you think I'm
    > whinging about it. Far from it.


    I'm just trying to point out that (a) it wasn't just built for adult
    bike races, and (b) while it might not be convenient for some, it might
    provide encouragement to others who hitherto haven't had somewhere
    convenient. For some, encouraging newcomers, especially in an area not
    noted for cycling, rates higher than making the trip shorter for the
    Beach Road crowd.
    >
    > What I am saying is that at the moment (and it'll be great if this
    > changes) the vast majority of riders that attend crits in the eastern
    > combine are from the city and they are less likely to make the trip
    > simply because it is so far from the city.


    I don't doubt you. But it might also encourage locals to take up the
    sport. Or at least give them a chance without having to travel these
    dreadful distances.

    > My concern is that Casey have built this track,
    > and the eastern combine clubs may have been a little ... liberal ..
    > with their claims for the justification of the track


    Right.

    > The state government chipped in $500,000 (I think?) specifically to
    > replace the facility at VFL park. Casey also contributed a lot, but
    > your land value claim is disingenious, the course is wrapped around the
    > edge of a huge mixed sporting complex, the land would have been
    > parkland or yet another carpark otherwise.


    The land value claim is valid in that there are competing interests for
    parkland in Casey as elsewhere. To declare parkland as having no value
    is, well, sad. No council closer to the city came up with an offer of
    suitable land, I gather.

    > I hope that the ratepayers of Casey get their moneys' worth out of it
    > in some form. I'm sure the local HPV people will have a ball on it,
    > it's a great circuit for HPV racing, that's for sure. The big question
    > for them (Casey) is what are the kids and local adults interested in
    > riding?


    No -- the big question for them is whether locals use the facility
    they've paid for.

    > We (Blackburn CC) tried for some time to get a decent crit running at
    > METEC (driver training roads in Kilsyth, closed road, interesting
    > track, about the same width as Casey but a bit shorter) but even that
    > is too far from the city for the bulk of the riders who race, and it's
    > closer than Casey.


    Maybe you should ask your local council for some of that free land ;-)

    --
    Shane Stanley
     
  11. Bleve

    Bleve Guest

    Shane Stanley wrote:
    > In article <[email protected]>,
    > "Bleve" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > > I've been to the Wonth HPV race (we raced it in '05), it's a good
    > > thing. There was a lot of school teams there, mainly it seems, from
    > > around Berwick etc, which is close to Casey.

    >
    > Berwick is *in* Casey; it's basically the old cities of Cranbourne and
    > Berwick combined.


    heh, that explains it :)

    > > I think you're misunderstanding what I wrote about the course. I am
    > > specifically *not* saying it's a bad thing, I am specifically saying it
    > > *is* a good thing in general. My observations are not any attempt to
    > > be negative about the course or the intentions of those that built,
    > > designed and paid for it. It comes across to me that you think I'm
    > > whinging about it. Far from it.

    >
    > I'm just trying to point out that (a) it wasn't just built for adult
    > bike races, and (b) while it might not be convenient for some, it might
    > provide encouragement to others who hitherto haven't had somewhere
    > convenient. For some, encouraging newcomers, especially in an area not
    > noted for cycling, rates higher than making the trip shorter for the
    > Beach Road crowd.


    I don't disagree. The beach rd mob have the st kilda (port melb) crits
    anyway, and they don't race in winter, can't get the colnago dirty now.
    But it *was* significantly funded for bike races (adult or otherwise,
    makes no difference). My understanding of the budget for it is as
    follows (this is hearsay, I don't have the real numbers, it's just what
    I've been told in discussion with Mal and Nicko etc) :

    $500,000 from the state gov (funds promised to replace the track at VFL
    park which got turned into a mcmansion estate) - this funding may have
    been aquired by some misleading claims by the eastern combine clubs.
    I don't know the details.

    The remainder from Casey council

    Total cost of track $1.1 mil. Sounds like a lot? That's 2 mid-range
    houses these days - ie: peanuts. The council had to chip in $600,000
    if the 1.1 mil figure isn't including the value of the land, which is
    unclear :)

    I'm all in favour of encouraging the locals (who paid for a fair whack
    of it!) to ride and race and be exposed to sports other than fools
    rules and bastardball.

    > > What I am saying is that at the moment (and it'll be great if this
    > > changes) the vast majority of riders that attend crits in the eastern
    > > combine are from the city and they are less likely to make the trip
    > > simply because it is so far from the city.

    >
    > I don't doubt you. But it might also encourage locals to take up the
    > sport. Or at least give them a chance without having to travel these
    > dreadful distances.


    Sure. Once more for good luck; I think the course is good and I think
    it's a good thing.

    > > My concern is that Casey have built this track,
    > > and the eastern combine clubs may have been a little ... liberal ..
    > > with their claims for the justification of the track

    >
    > Right.
    >
    > > The state government chipped in $500,000 (I think?) specifically to
    > > replace the facility at VFL park. Casey also contributed a lot, but
    > > your land value claim is disingenious, the course is wrapped around the
    > > edge of a huge mixed sporting complex, the land would have been
    > > parkland or yet another carpark otherwise.

    >
    > The land value claim is valid in that there are competing interests for
    > parkland in Casey as elsewhere. To declare parkland as having no value
    > is, well, sad. No council closer to the city came up with an offer of
    > suitable land, I gather.


    I'm not saying that parkland is of no value(!). But that the land as
    allocated was essentially "spare". At least, that's my understanding.
    Casey could offer the land on what is essentially a speculator (build
    it, and they might come) simply because it was spare land. I've been
    there, seen the place. It's no rainforest, it's windswept low grade
    farmland on the outskirts of an outer suburb, the local farms have a
    roaring trade in "brown". Next time you buy a brown thing, see if you
    can find on the label somewhere "brown, traces of which are proudly
    grown in Cranbourne and Melton". It's been raining for a month, and
    the place is still brown!

    > > I hope that the ratepayers of Casey get their moneys' worth out of it
    > > in some form. I'm sure the local HPV people will have a ball on it,
    > > it's a great circuit for HPV racing, that's for sure. The big question
    > > for them (Casey) is what are the kids and local adults interested in
    > > riding?

    >
    > No -- the big question for them is whether locals use the facility
    > they've paid for.


    They paid (half - 2/3rds) for a bike racing track. If the locals
    aren't interested in riding, then they won't use it. I'm sure the
    local hoons will find a way to get onto it with motorbikes and cars and
    will trash it as soon as they discover it :( That's -perhaps- not what
    the council has in mind though.

    > > We (Blackburn CC) tried for some time to get a decent crit running at
    > > METEC (driver training roads in Kilsyth, closed road, interesting
    > > track, about the same width as Casey but a bit shorter) but even that
    > > is too far from the city for the bulk of the riders who race, and it's
    > > closer than Casey.

    >
    > Maybe you should ask your local council for some of that free land ;-)


    There's very little in the way of spare land in the city, and we're
    gradually losing our crit courses and road racing courses. It's a
    problem ... and I hope the Casey Fields course, as part of a solution,
    gets used significantly. We did get a kinda weird MTB crit course dug
    into a park in Blackburn last year, but AFAIK it's a dead duck at the
    moment. I don't really know why it was built. I've never seen anyone
    use it except at the grand (!) opening.

    We still have Sandown and Glenvale, but for how long? Glenvale maybe
    another couple of years before it gets rezoned or something, or more of
    the factories start opening on sunday mornings etc. We may also get the
    Siemens carpark soon.
     
  12. In aus.bicycle on 2 May 2006 19:28:04 -0700
    Bleve <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >
    > There's very little in the way of spare land in the city, and we're
    > gradually losing our crit courses and road racing courses. It's a
    > problem ... and I hope the Casey Fields course, as part of a solution,
    > gets used significantly. We did get a kinda weird MTB crit course dug


    Well... if people can't or won't travel, and there's no land close in,
    then what's a good answer?

    I guess a track near a train, if bikes are allowed on trains at the
    appropriate hours. Else there's no way that people who ride their
    bikes in to work and want to play after, or have to go home and get
    said bikes can use it in daylight hours.

    I suppose to really encourage sprinters they could put a concrete
    pathway down the middle of the train tracks.... "Results - Fred Nurk
    6min 20.7, rest squashed".

    Zebee
     
  13. Friday

    Friday Guest

    Zebee Johnstone wrote:
    > In aus.bicycle on 2 May 2006 04:52:47 -0700
    > Bleve <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >>Shane Stanley wrote:
    >>
    >>>As in slap-bang in the middle of the fastest-growing region in the
    >>>country. Councils catering to local riders should be encouraged, IMO,
    >>>especially when they're trying to cater to young riders.

    >>
    >>Yes, but it's not a big (yet ...) cycling area. It's boganville at the
    >>moment.

    >
    >
    > Hmm.. is it my imagination, or is cycling something done mostly in
    > city and inner suburban areas?
    >
    > Or is it more a demographic thing? That the wealthier suburbs have
    > more people who ride bikes and most of those are inner ring, but some
    > outer ring middle class burbs have bike riders?
    >
    > Are there any stats on where the most cycling is done? And how
    > cycling happens in an area it didn't happen in before?
    >
    > Zebee


    I live in a country town of about 10 000. There's only about half a
    dozen of us adults that cycle regularly despite the fact that the bike
    shop does a pretty good trade. The local BMX club is thriving but once
    kids get their drivers license they're lost to the "dark side".


    Friday
     
  14. mogulhead

    mogulhead New Member

    Joined:
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    Messages:
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    Warragul I think has a cycling club maybe they will use it as its only 60km from Berwick. Should be a boon for cycling clubs in that area.

    Criterium courses are hard to find in the country. I know Geelong Cycling Club have been looking for a criterium course for quite a while without success. Anyway roads like that don't wear out quickly it will still be there when cyclists decide they want to use it. I think its brilliant. The sooner they get something like this up and running in Geelong the better.
     
  15. Bleve

    Bleve Guest

    mogulhead wrote:
    > Warragul I think has a cycling club maybe they will use it as its only
    > 60km from Berwick. Should be a boon for cycling clubs in that area.
    >
    > Criterium courses are hard to find in the country. I know Geelong
    > Cycling Club have been looking for a criterium course for quite a while
    > without success. Anyway roads like that don't wear out quickly it will
    > still be there when cyclists decide they want to use it. I think its
    > brilliant. The sooner they get something like this up and running in
    > Geelong the better.


    Actually, according to the engineers that built it, it'll last abuot 10
    years before it breaks up. It's a normal road, which is supposed to
    last ~25 years, but without traffic on it aparently the foundations
    will not work properly or something.

    Crit courses in Geelong would be pretty easy to find I would have
    thought, all you need is a light industrial area (Geelong has one or
    three of them ...) and a Sunday. I bet Alcoa etc would have bits of
    road you could use if you knew who to ask. Even just a big chunk of
    carpark can be used - we've raced in the carpark at Sandown on more
    than one occasion.
     
  16. TimC

    TimC Guest

    On 2006-05-03, Bleve (aka Bruce)
    was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
    > mogulhead wrote:
    >> without success. Anyway roads like that don't wear out quickly it will
    >> still be there when cyclists decide they want to use it. I think its
    >> brilliant. The sooner they get something like this up and running in
    >> Geelong the better.

    >
    > Actually, according to the engineers that built it, it'll last abuot 10
    > years before it breaks up. It's a normal road, which is supposed to
    > last ~25 years, but without traffic on it aparently the foundations
    > will not work properly or something.


    The hawthorn bumpadrome is already getting a little lumpy. But then
    again, it probably doesn't have foundations :(

    --
    TimC
    Shift to the Left;
    Shift to the Right
    Pop up; Push down
    Byte! Byte! Byte!!! --unknown
     
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