Mendrisio elite road race



limerickman

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Jan 5, 2004
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doctorSpoc said:
well deserved victory by Evans... he was decisive and brave and smart... put his head down and got to work... all the things that we criticize him for not doing usually.

sanchez, and cancellara (must be kicking himself) were so strong but tried to be WAY too cute about it and needed some of the qualities that Evans displayed today. basically, the race is up the road and it's time to go, god damned who's on my wheel.. i can't win from back here. i more so blame Cancellara since Sanchez had rodriguez up the road... so the ball was more so in Cancellara's court... Evans showed them how it's done today though.

the coverage i watched never showed how the last ~1min to the break got bridged... i saw the spanish pulling up the hill but some one must have put in one hell of an attack to bridge all that time in such a short distance... saw Cancellara working the descent but it must have started before that. actually i was watching EuroSport audio with god knows which video (north america sucked this year for coverage) and they were not quite in sync..

What happened was that CE broke away from Kolobnev and Rodriguez with 4kms to go.
Kolobnev and Rodriguez were either marking each other - or were too tired to try to go with CE.
It was hard to tell to be honest.
I reckon they were both tired.

Cancellara/Valverde group were making each other and any time Canc made a break for it, he was marked.
he did get away in the last three kms but it was too late to chase down CE, Kolobnev and Rodriguez.
Actually Canc was on his hands and knees after he crossed the line.
He was totally bolloxed.
 

steve

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[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCbnjxGT64w"]YouTube - WC Mendrisio 2009 Road Race Elite - Final lap (2/2)[/ame]
 

slovakguy

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Mar 17, 2006
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congrats to evans on his victory.

what an anemic effort by the usa. uci has to address the issue of allowing so many slots to a team only to watch as that country's federation fills the slots with second tier riders because the "elite" riders have finished with competition.
 

doctorSpoc

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limerickman said:
What happened was that CE broke away from Kolobnev and Rodriguez with 4kms to go.
Kolobnev and Rodriguez were either marking each other - or were too tired to try to go with CE.
It was hard to tell to be honest.
I reckon they were both tired.

Cancellara/Valverde group were making each other and any time Canc made a break for it, he was marked.
he did get away in the last three kms but it was too late to chase down CE, Kolobnev and Rodriguez.
Actually Canc was on his hands and knees after he crossed the line.
He was totally bolloxed.

no, i saw all that, i mean before all of that, 2 laps to go when the break got caught... they had more than a minute i saw some of the spanish chasing... then the next thing i see Cancellar flying down the descent past Kirchen who was at the head of the break... who attack the hill before the catch... know Cancellar attacked the descent..
 

Andrija

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It's going to be nice to watch rainbow jersey fighting for a GT for change. When was the last time it was the case? Olano in 1996. in the Giro.
 

steve

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slovakguy said:
congrats to evans on his victory.

what an anemic effort by the usa. uci has to address the issue of allowing so many slots to a team only to watch as that country's federation fills the slots with second tier riders because the "elite" riders have finished with competition.

true :eek:

68 Andrew Bajadali
69 Brent Bookwalter
70 Thomas Danielson
71 Timothy Duggan
72 Tyler Farrar
73 Craig Lewis
74 Jason Mccartney
75 Thomas Peterson
 

Scotttri

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slovakguy said:
congrats to evans on his victory.

what an anemic effort by the usa. uci has to address the issue of allowing so many slots to a team only to watch as that country's federation fills the slots with second tier riders because the "elite" riders have finished with competition.


Excellant result cadel, Australia will be proud of you. As for the USA team I guess riding for ones country means alot and is considered the pinacle of ones career, obviously not in America where some believe they are bigger than there country!!
 

Andrija

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Scotttri said:
Excellant result cadel, Australia will be proud of you. As for the USA team I guess riding for ones country means alot and is considered the pinacle of ones career, obviously not in America where some believe they are bigger than there country!!
I think they believe they're bigger than the UCI world championship... Not big enough race. It was huge when they didn't have GT contender, but now...
 

gtm

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It was great to see 'Cuddles' win. OK, he's not the most media friendly member of the peleton but if anyone deserves some success it's him (especially after his poor showing at the T de F & the horrible Vuelta puncture). I was seriously worried when Vino led the race on the last lap. It would have been awful if he'd won:mad:
 

thunder

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felt sorry for Cancellara, the guy was by far the strongest in that race.

but Evans played it well.
 

Runitout

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thunder said:
felt sorry for Cancellara, the guy was by far the strongest in that race.

but Evans played it well.

Yeah, but if it was a strength test they'd just strap you to a power meter and be done with it.

Cancellara usually plays it smart, Evans usually fluffs it - this time, Cancellara spent his chips on the downhill as well as the second last hill - he should have waited until the last hill before he went again. He was stuffed when the lead trio went, and couldn't go without dragging Sanchez with him.

Cunego had a crack on the flat to bridge, but didn't have the legs. (He died on the last climb). Cance should have marked him but he didn't have the strength to go because he'd ripped off his own legs.

Sanchez had the legs, but was marking Cancellara. I think he was the only one who wasn't hurting too badly. Gilbert had a crack up the hill but had nothing to give.

Evans played it smart for once. I thought the two best rides were Rodriguez and Evans. Evans saw Rodriguez slip down the side and chased him. He'd only just bridged on the second last climb - another ten yards and he might have missed the cut, but it gave him the position to see what everyone else was doing. When he went, he went like a cut cat. Haven't seen him bury himself like that since he rode a Cannondale. Rodriguez went when he had to - any later and he'd have to play domestique. This way he gets the medal and a bit of coin. Pretty good considering Sanchez looked fresh and he'd been in the break all day.

Kolobnev was msart too - stopped his first attack when it was clear he would be caught, and saved his pennies for the last lap. Didn't work but it came close. I don't think he was playing games on the final hill - he just couldn't quite make the catch. A good result, really.
 

gtm

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thunder said:
felt sorry for Cancellara, the guy was by far the strongest in that race.

but Evans played it well.

Spartacus won the TT & plenty of other stuff this year. He'll get over it :)
 

thunder

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I dont know what Spain were doing, they have 4 or so, in the final selection, and just marked Cancellara out of the race.

Kolobnev and Cancellara were the strongest, but they were perhaps too strong, and with Spain strong, they neutralised them.

As Run said, smarts too, it is an effective handicap with the strong riders being marked.
 

classic1

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Jul 29, 2006
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thunder said:
I dont know what Spain were doing, they have 4 or so, in the final selection, and just marked Cancellara out of the race.

Kolobnev and Cancellara were the strongest, but they were perhaps too strong, and with Spain strong, they neutralised them.

As Run said, smarts too, it is an effective handicap with the strong riders being marked.

+ eleventybillion.

Valverde and dirty Sanchez rode like knobheads.
 

doctorSpoc

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thunder said:
felt sorry for Cancellara, the guy was by far the strongest in that race.

but Evans played it well.

unfortunately for Cancellara cycling is a thinking man's sport, brute strength works in TTs but most of the time that is just not the case in road racing.. especially at this level. he just telegraphed too much of his strength and as a result was heavily marked by the spanish.. from that point it was going to be virtually impossible for him to win. he was outnumbered. see them calling each other's bluff as they all sat up on the last climb as Evan's, Kolobnev and Rodriguez road away... those few seconds there.. that's when the race was finally lost for good.
 

doctorSpoc

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classic1 said:
+ eleventybillion.

Valverde and dirty Sanchez rode like knobheads.

eleventybillion - 1

Spain rode tactically correct.. sometimes that works out for you and sometimes it doesn't, but it maximizes your chances of success statistically.. didn't get the win but got a Bronze out of it. with Rodriguez up the road it was for Cancellara or whoever else to chase and instead they decided to sit up on the final climb so they ended up losing.. bottom line is that Cancellara's only chance of success was to chase on the final climb.. this would have likely resulted in Sanchez becoming world champion and Cancellara getting the silver or Bronze, but hey Spain was holding all the chips with the numbers they had in the final selection. sitting up on the final climb was a tactical error on Cancellara's part(even soft pedaling to keep the gap down would have been preferable). at that point he has lost the race.

i agree that Cancellara (to my surprise really, was the strongest) but Sanchez had the biggest smart & strong combo and the team to back him up.. Cancellara didn't play it right and he ended up with nothing.. sure Sanchez ended up with nothing too but spain got a bronze out of it.. Spain played it absolutely right but they were depending on the other players to play their parts right as well to get the win and they didn't..

think of it like this... Spain had the race totally set up for the checkmate but Cancellara and the others played SO badly they lost their chance of the conciliation prize and Spains win at the same time.. Spain even in the face of this still ends up with the bronze.. Spain played it perfectly...
 

classic1

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Yeah, an absolute tactical masterclass from the Spanish. Three men in a group of nine and they only end up with a bronze medal. They had the fastest and arguably the second fastest sprinter in the break and they send a bloke up the road who has been in breaks for 100km. What race were you watching? The Spanish completely botched it.
 

doctorSpoc

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classic1 said:
+ eleventybillion.

Valverde and dirty Sanchez rode like knobheads.

classic1 said:
Yeah, an absolute tactical masterclass from the Spanish. Three men in a group of nine and they only end up with a bronze medal. They had the fastest and arguably the second fastest sprinter in the break and they send a bloke up the road who has been in breaks for 100km. What race were you watching? The Spanish completely botched it.

???

you have no idea about how cycling >>TEAM<< tactics work.. Obviously!

they didn't send Rodriguez up the road... he ended up, up the road... which was a good thing tactically, since it meant that the other were obliged to chase, meaning Sanchez should have had a free ride up to Evans and the other.. but Cancellara et al ended up playing it so bad the "X"ed themselves out of it and Sanchez... you can't control everything and everyone on the road all you can do is work with what you are given and play it to maximize your chances of success.

1st rule of team tactics you don't chase down a team mate.. it's in your interest, their interest and the team's interest on just about every level.. there are exceptions but Spain absolutely played this right in this situation.. lets say Sanchez did chase (it would have been stupid but let's say he did).. what if he didn't actually have the legs he thought he did, or what if he flatted or crashed.. then spain ends up with nothing.. not even bronze.. you don't count your chickens before they are hatched... at least bronze is in the bank.. it was absolutely for the others to chase.. and if Sanchez has worked the climb he likely would have been exhausted an in all likely hood Spain would have ended up with the same bronze they got anyway..

sorry man, if you don't know that, you just have no understanding of team tactics... Spain played it right..
 

thunder

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they went from having about 4 or 5 of 10, with Freire, then he may have been jettisoned, but Breschel stayed,

to having Sammy Sanchez with Valverde, the fastest guys in the group.

They wanted Sanchez and Valverde in the sprint, because a low speed start, favoured them, if it was a sprint from 65kmph in the last 3 kms, yeah, Cancellara, but it was a low speed sprint that Valverde would have pumped everyone, with only Cunego a threat. But Sammy Sanchez was the leadout man.

They did not want to put Joaquim Rodriguez away, 1 on 3. They went from 3 or 4 of the last 8/9. With no Breschel. The fastest guy, and Sammy Sanchez probably equal second fastest with Valverde.

So if it was a decimated group sprint, Valverde was odds on. Only Cunego could have taken him from a low start speed. A long strength sprent, Cancellara may have been a chance. But how would have Cancellara orchestrated a long fast strength sprent, without giving a fast man his wheel as a leadout?

Doctor Spoc, beem me up Scotty.
 

doctorSpoc

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thunder said:
they went from having about 4 or 5 of 10, with Freire, then he may have been jettisoned, but Breschel stayed,

to having Sammy Sanchez with Valverde, the fastest guys in the group.

They wanted Sanchez and Valverde in the sprint, because a low speed start, favoured them, if it was a sprint from 65kmph in the last 3 kms, yeah, Cancellara, but it was a low speed sprint that Valverde would have pumped everyone, with only Cunego a threat. But Sammy Sanchez was the leadout man.

They did not want to put Joaquim Rodriguez away, 1 on 3. They went from 3 or 4 of the last 8/9. With no Breschel. The fastest guy, and Sammy Sanchez probably equal second fastest with Valverde.

So if it was a decimated group sprint, Valverde was odds on. Only Cunego could have taken him from a low start speed. A long strength sprent, Cancellara may have been a chance. But how would have Cancellara orchestrated a long fast strength sprent, without giving a fast man his wheel as a leadout?

Doctor Spoc, beem me up Scotty.

just read Sanchez's reaction to the result.. as i said he was not ever going to chase down Rodriguez.. that was never going to happen.. and as they played it Sanchez was tasked with marking Cancellar since he was strongest and Sanchez was on the best legs and could follow him in the downhills and Valverde was supposed to mark Cunego... but it doesn't appear that Valverde was on a good day.. the way they set it up made all kinds of sense..

tactics are not absolute.. they are about maximizing your odds at each stage and are based on what others will likely do rationally/in their best interest.. if other's behave irrationally and not in their best interest (like Cancellara and the others did) then some times these decisions will fall on their face, but i can't see a point at which to fault Spain... the odds of Evans' attack actually succeeding and Cancellara and others not chasing are very low so that's how..

1/3 where 3 equals a secured bronze makes sense... especially when if others were thinking straight they'd come to the conclusion that.. not chasing meant they ABSOLUTELY take nothing home and chasing meant they have a chance at silver through bronze.. even gold.. Spain played it right.. they were setting up the sprint win just like you describe.. the others didn't play ball and they ended up with nothing but spain still ended up with Bronze..

do you think Cancellar played it right? Evans played it right, waiting for the sprint meant he would have bascially been conceding defeat.. not chasing on the last climb was the tactical equivalent of Evans waiting for the sprint.. taunt amount to conceding defeat.. otherwise known as dumb!