Mendrisio elite road race

Discussion in 'Professional Cycling' started by Andrija, Sep 26, 2009.

  1. heinkel12

    heinkel12 New Member

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    Very good reading of the race Jono! Of course the X factor is that it was the end of a very hard 265km World Championship. They were all knackered! Valverde and Cunego were clearly spent. Cancellara blew his own chance with his meathead tactics and I think was hurting too and Sanchez may have had a bit left but was trying to cover all bases. Evans was the only man left standing. Kobolonev and Rodrigues were never going to hold him up the last hill. I have a feeling Evans may of been having the ride of his life in any case.
     


  2. doctorSpoc

    doctorSpoc New Member

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    i've managed to watch the coverage again and i go with my original recollection in spite of what that moron vader said.. Rodriguez just ended up in that break.. it was not planned, but they let it go because it should have cause the others to chase and left the Spanish in a better position... that's why Sanchez let it go. YOU know in hind sight that, that wasn't a good idea, but on the road, at that time it must have seemed perfectly reasonable.. i actually think that Sanchez did have a laps in attention and let the wheel go causing a gap, but then must have thought.. hell that's my man up there, one of you guys fill it.. fatal mistake in hind sight, but if the others were looking out for their own best interests they should have filled it right away...

    if you read Sanchez' account he had already talked to Valv and he said he wasn't up to it... so their sprinting trump card was a no go or at least very risky..

    The Olympic champion confirmed that the favourites for the title had marked each other out of contention at the finish. "I spoke with Alejandro [Valverde], and as he was feeling below his best we decided that he would follow the attacks of [Damiano] Cunego and I would follow [Fabian] Cancellara's, because he was the strongest and I could follow him better on the descents."
    Sánchez Rues Fourth Place Finish At Worlds | Cyclingnews.com

    i agree that they can't be totally happy with that result, but it's better than nothing, which is what Cancellara and the the others that didn't pull when they were obliged to got for their efforts... in any case i think their is a lot of second guessing of tactics based on your knowledge of what DID happen vs. what a normal person would have expected to happen on the road at the time without being clairvoyant. given the situtation on the road i just can't fault the spanish.. their was nothing particularly wrong with what they did.. they force the situation into a zero-sum game that all things being equal and other looking out for their own best interests should have netted them the win, but cancellara the bone head didn't realize what he was dealing with and bascically ended up x'ing everyone out.. i put the blame for this ending squarly on cancellara's shoulders... in a zero some game we all get something but if one person doesn't act right then we all end up with nothing and that's what happened.. valv and sanchez could not pull that's a given... how long has cancellara been riding? and he didn't realize that? he had to chase, attack something but he didn't..
     
  3. EoinC

    EoinC New Member

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    G'day, Lim.
    Yes, there was coverage, but the byte was about 1/15 of the time given to a zookeeper sitting reading a newspaper beside a baby rhino.
    At a time when the 'World Series' AFL Grand Final has just finished, cycling news has to be introduced with a reminder "Cycling, that's the sport where they use 2 wheels and no engine, has just seen an Australian...now, back to that rhino story..."
    Cycling got a lot more TV coverage in a "comedy" (GNW) on Monday with the consensus being that bike riders who don't stick to cycle paths should be run down - Yep, although Aussie produces some of the best road, track, mtb & bmx cyclists in the World, the (general) media place it pretty low on the priorities.

    Rant, rant, rant.....

    Cheers,
    EoinC
     
  4. RHR38

    RHR38 New Member

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    Did anyone notice any trade team tactics perhaps? ;)

    Lotto, Caisse, Saxo..
     
  5. classic1

    classic1 Well-Known Member

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    Posting lots of words doesn't mean you have won an argument, nor does posting 16,000 hypotheticals eliminate the fact that the Spanish botched it completely. Anyone with half a brain could see that Rodriguez was cooked and wasn't the man to bring home the gold medal.

    Commentator Matt Keenan (who is as knowledgable as anyone on the planet about pro cycling) stated during his commentary that the Spanish had blown it, and IIRC that was BEFORE Evans dropped his fellow escapees. Perhaps you'd like to put your knowledge up against Keenan? You'd get pwned, although you should be getting used to it by now.

    For further demonstration of what a cokhead you are and how you are incapable of putting two and two together, I will quote you directly.

    Funny that you didn't get an immediate response. You posted that comment at approx 2am Australian time. :rolleyes: You are a dead set monger.
     
  6. thunder

    thunder New Member

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    when Rodriguez went, I thought I saw a red orange jersey, swing off to the left of the road. I assumed it was a Spanish jersey, to let Rodriguez, Evans, and Kolobnev go.

    I do not think Rodriguez was leading, I thought he was third man, and there was a 4th Spanish man.

    So, a little like 3 years ago in Austria Salzberg, where I think it was Joaquim Rodriguez letting the gap go to Valverde Sammy Sanchez and Valverde, another Spaniard here let the group go off the front.

    Now this is counter to what Evans said. He said when he said Rodriguez go, he needed to go. But I thought that it was not a direct move, and Kolobnev was on the front, Evans, then Rodriguez.

    So, who would have been the Spaniard to let the group go? It must have been Valverde or Sammy Sanchez.

    The way it needed to play out, as I have said, was the Spaniards to orchestrate a move with Cancellara and Sammy Sanchez.

    Now, this should have been pretty easy to coordinate. Because Cancellara was marked by 3 Spaniards on that climb, they should have made sure they put Sammy Sanchez on Cancellara's wheel, and let them go off the front, and blocked.

    I think if it had been a disparate group behind, and the Spaniards as an anchor, there is no way that the group left were going to bring back Cancellara and Sammy Sanchez. Kolobnev was perhaps, with Evans, if working together, the only ones who could have held the gap. But I do not think they could have brought Cancellara back, if Sammy Sanchez pulled through, but did not do too much to threaten his legs with a jump from Cancellara behind.

    Sammy Sanchez would have got Cancellara in the sprint.

    The stupid cnut Doctor Proctologist has said that the Rodriguez group guaranteed a bronze. Well, at worst, if Sanchez was off the front with Cancellara it was a silver.

    Spain needed to put their best shot, off the front. Perferably mano a mano with Cancellara. If it came back together, Rodriguez could have made sure Valverde had his nose out of the wind, and to try and close the attacks for a decimated field sprint.

    I do not think that it can necessarily work with a DS in the team tent directing them, they needed to be well prepped, and know who was where, and on their limit. And an agreement when the final group was down to 5 or 6, to put the strongest like Sammy Sanchez, off the front with someone he would beat in a sprint. Cancellara would have been the perfect companion off the front. But they were not thinking.

    They were just neutralising all the moves, without being proactive, and taking the race by the horns. They were relying on Valverde if it came back together, and what they did was have their weakest rider off the front when he was only gonna get third. They needed to use their strongest rider, and be aggressive. They were too defensive, and just neutralising attacks, and then going with an attack that was never gonna succeed for them.

    Come on Dr, get with it.
     
  7. slovakguy

    slovakguy Active Member

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    so, how's the rhino doing?
     
  8. doctorSpoc

    doctorSpoc New Member

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    what you present here are conclusions.. do you even know the difference between an arguement and a conclusion? :rolleyes: and they aren't even your own lol. presenting conclusions with absolutely no basis to back them up as well can't win you an arguement.. when you come up with a well reasoned and thought out basis for your conclusions come to me.. we'll talk.. lol..

    and i don't give a rat's behind about anyone's qualifications to say x, y or z.. if they can't present a well thought out rationale for their conclusion, then their conclusions are worthless.. i.e. the conclusions you present are in this category.. as i demonstrate above it's not enough to say a strategy didn't work, out therefore it is wrong, which seems to be the idiocy you are working from... you can't draw that line logically.

    and i guess it must still be 2 am in Aus since you still haven't presented a scenario that you think the spanish should have taken..

    anyway, i've pretty much given up getting anything rational out of you anyway, so no worries... lol..
     
  9. doctorSpoc

    doctorSpoc New Member

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    thunder... you don't even read my posts.. that's obvious... you are just talking past me.

    sure, keeping it together as you suggest might have worked.. sure, but maybe not too, no one can ensure what will actually go down out there on the road.. that's not the point. the question is, what was wrong with the strategy that the spanish DID use?

    answer these...

    1) if you are cancellara.. he was the strongest but the others too.. only Cunego seemed to read the situation right. would you have waited 'til the top of the climb to attack (when it was already too late) given evans, kolobnez and rodriguez riding away with the medals? NO!

    2) would it have been reasonable for AV and SS to assume that the group they were in would chase? YES!

    3) would it have been rational for the other to understand that AV and SS would not chase down rodriguez? YES! Cunego obviously understood this..

    if you answer as i did then you cannot argue that the spanish actions on the road were flawed.. the situation should have forced the other to chase weaking them a little more and still set up the small bunch sprint you were talking about or the Cancellara - SS battle... in any case their odds should have only been better with the opponents slightly diminished by chasing than if they had kept it together.. what they did almost assured them the win and if it didn't work for some reason it assured them the bronze... that's a good strategy from where i'm sitting..

    and they didn't expect rodriguez to fight for the gold.. they used him as an expendable resource... they fully expected the other to tire themselves chasing him down giving AV and SS a better chance at the finale... that's one of the benefits of having extra guys in a break.. and in a situation like that you ALWAYS let the weakest guy go first, so when he gets brought back the stronger guy has that much better of a chance... that's the way it works.. why in god's name would you send the strong guy out first in a break that you fully expect to be brought back? other wise there might as well not be there then... right?

    so it's not about if another strategy would work.. maybe it does maybe it doesn't... unless it was a slam dunk but nothing is really a slam dunk.. **** happens sometimes.. but what you present is not.. it's about if there was anything flawed in the thinking of the spanish strategy and there simply isn't.. the spanish didn't screw up cancellara did...
     
  10. Runitout

    Runitout New Member

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    Okay, this is my final go.

    1. Cance did lead the Spanish up. Cunego went, then Gilbert, then Cance, dragging the rest. He was knackered, which is why he waited until the end of the climb to attack (Breschel helped him too). Valverde was supposed to be marking Cunego, but he didn't. None of the Spanish did anything when Cunego went. That's where they lost the race, (assuming that they hadn't already lost it when Sanchez - I thought with was Cancellara, but am now pretty sure it was Sanchez - peeled off to make Breschel take the wind near the overpass, creating the gap in the first place.

    2. Yes it would have been reasonable to assume the group would chase. And chase they did - first Cunego, then Gilbert. Then, when they blew up, instead of attacking them, the Spanish sat on their wheels. Race over.

    3. You are allowed to bridge to a teammate. Attack the group you are in. and if you drag an opponent with you, then sit up. The rule is not "don't chase your teammate." It's "Don't drag an opponent up to your teammate".

    You've complained about not being told what the Spanish should have done. But it's been said -

    1. Sanchez shouldn't have let the gap form, if he didn't think Rodriguez could win.
    2. Valverde should have chased Cunego
    3. Sanchez should have attacked when Cancellara brought them up to Gilbert and Cunego.

    After that, the race was well and truly lost.
     
  11. classic1

    classic1 Well-Known Member

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    Another bronze medal for spoc

    Not only are you a monger, you have reading comprehension problems. If you could actually read properly you would have seen that I wrote that they should not have bet on Rodruguez. It's a simple concept, backed up by the end result of the race, not some retarded line of 'logic'. I don't need to write eighteen pages of rubbish, waffle and nonsense to express a point of view or sustain my position. Anyone who watched the race and could comprehend what was going on could see Rodriguez was never going to win.

    Go ahead and continue to argue from an unsustainable position though. I'm sure you will.
     
  12. EoinC

    EoinC New Member

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    It's cuter than a rainbow jersey. Unfortunately we'll have to wait for its horn to grow (reminds me of my prepubescent years) before we can make powder out of it.
     
  13. Jono L

    Jono L Well-Known Member

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    No no no,
    I know as someone who races, a lot, that letting it go was not a good idea at that instant. Throw hindsight out the window, I am sitting on canc's whheel, my guy (who is the sacrificial lamb) has just been up the road with 2 others, he is the weakest of those two.

    Canc has spent some energy bringing them back, good. Now all I have to do is roll over and grab the wheel and we can try and hold it together for a sprint or get me or valverde away with canc the strong man and sit on him then roll him.

    NOT send the bloke who has been in the break ALL DAY away again.

    clear this time?

    That is called a fault.
    A mistake
    Not flawless
    Hence bronze medal.
    clicked yet?
     
  14. VadarStrikesBack

    VadarStrikesBack Well-Known Member

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    Sprogc - I bet your amps go to 11.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbVKWCpNFhY"]YouTube - Spinal Tap - 11[/ame]
     
  15. JAPANic

    JAPANic New Member

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    My cassette goes to 11...
     
  16. doctorSpoc

    doctorSpoc New Member

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    OH, MY F!CKING GOD!! LMAO!!! ok, i gave you WAY too much credit... obviously!

    So let me see if i have this right, LMAO again... sorry.. almost fell off my chair reading your idiotic post... lol.. so you think that the collective wisdom of Sammy Sanchez, Alejandro Valverde and Rodriguez, and their DS allowed Rodriguez to go in the break because they thought he had some kind of chance of taking the gold? we're talking about guys that have, under their belts, a grand tour win and podiums, olympic champ, numerous classics wins etc, etc, etc couldn't figure that out that, it might be a bad idea, but a moron like you could? is that what you are saying?? can anyone, really be that frigg'n stupid to come to that idiotic conclusion? honestly... you think that?? you think that they couldn't figure out that maybe it's not a good idea to bet the bank on a guy that had been in a break for 100km.. please tell me you don't think that.. because that would make you so stupid.. i can't even describe how stupid that would make you... LOL...

    here's a clue... that break was not supposed to succeed... the weakest man on the team was allowed in the break to draw out the competition, so that they would have to do some work and would make AVs and SS's chances of success better... that break was meant to be brought back by the competition and then SS and AV were going to either go on the attack or be in a better position for the sprint... do you know anything about cycling tactics at all?? that break could have been nullified easy had someone just had the good sense to jump around sanchez when the gap was just a few meters..

    ok, i think i'm done responding to you.. no offence or anything, but i can't waste my time any longer having a conversation like this, with someone who obviously has some serious mental deficiencies... it's not fair first of all and second of all, it's the kind of the debating equivalent of beating your head up against a brick wall... kind of painful..

    wow.. unreal...
     
  17. doctorSpoc

    doctorSpoc New Member

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    i have been racing for over 20 years myself... i have done this exact thing for my team mates on numerous occasion and it's worked perfectly. if i'm feeling, not up to it and my team mates are.. i go on a flyer early.. force others to chase earlier than they want to... as soon as i get brought back BOOM, they go... you don't send the strong guy out first to fight against the competition in their freshest state.. you work them over a bit first, and you do that with the weakest rider first and strongest rider last. that way the strongest guy has the best chance of succeeding since he will go against diminished competition....

    c'mon guys, this is the kind of thing you learn as a 16 year old cadet.. this is not overly complex stuff we're talking about here..
     
  18. classic1

    classic1 Well-Known Member

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    Wow unreal indeed. I'm not laughing at you. I feel sorry for you.

    What fcuking part of your brain is stopping you from understanding that letting Rodriguez get away with anyone was a monumentally stupid move? Once the gap went nobody was going to chase and drag Sanchez or Valverde across, and Rodriguez was shot. And WTF was Rodriguez doing turns for just before the climb instead of just rollng up to second wheel and propping? Fcuk me you are dumb. The Spanish team botched it big time, the Spanish tactics were flawed in the extreme. Maybe you could apply for the position of Spanish monger/manager?

    I'm done with this thread. My head hurts from trying to explain simple concepts to argumentative fools.
     
  19. Runitout

    Runitout New Member

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    Which they did - witness Cunego and Gilbert
    Except - boom - they didn't go. They sat on. Race over.

    If it was dumb to let Kolobnev and Evans go - and it was - even by your own reasoning it was monumentally stupid not to attack when Cunego and Gilbert went and then Cancellara towed them back up to that pair.
     
  20. Jono L

    Jono L Well-Known Member

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    read what runitout posted above.

    :rolleyes:
     
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