Message direct to all fellow professional cyclists

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by Ronde Champ, Jun 25, 2004.

  1. Ronde Champ

    Ronde Champ Guest

    Hey,

    We all need to step back and recognize the damage the drugs are doing
    to the sport of cycling. At the risk of revealing my true identity,
    the sport of professional cycling is at risk due to the negative image
    brought on by controversial drug use.
    There are so many riders doing drugs, that it is really difficult for
    the clean riders to compete. As Alex Zuelle said, "It's hard to do
    55mph when everyone else is doing 70mph." Well, until they remove
    rules, and have an open category of no holds barred, this will always
    be done in the shadows of cycling.
    I'm not even calculating the long term health risks. Read up on how
    many 45-50 year old former football players die from various organ
    disorders. No 22 year old cyclist faced with the stark reality of
    working a real job if they don't make it ever cares about this. They,
    'you' will live forever. And what's wrong with just stepping up for
    this next big race. I'll only do it ONE time.
    I know the same riders never care about sponsors. Think about why
    they put cash into cycling. It isn't to make your dreams come true.
    It's advertising 101. All the bad press cycling is getting threatens
    to kill our sport. The sponsors will gravitate to other sports or ways
    to get their brand out there. Look at mainstream press in this buildup
    to the Tour de France. Find an article that doesn't mention drugs.
    CEO's will not continue sponsoring if it means the could suffer a hit
    to their company name and more importantly, bottomline and/or stock
    price.
    If everyone is doing the 'program', aren't we still just competing
    against each other on a new level? It would be beautiful for my
    wallet, health, mental state, and grandchildren to be, if we could
    just race our bikes while remaining clean. The ironic thing is that
    many of us started riding because it is so healthy. It makes you
    strong, and can add quality to our years, and years to our life. What
    we are all playing with tampers with that, and may even be the most
    unhealthy thing we ever do to our body. Most o fthis has become back
    alley, and unregulated. I'll shot this cause this veteran rider does.
    I have know idea of side effects, other than I will ride real fast for
    the next race.

    5 years from now things will be much worse for our sport, or much
    better. It will not continue down this same path. Maybe WADA and USADA
    and IOC and UCI will actually win this war on drugs. For my health, I
    hope so. Until then, I have a syringe waiting for me. It is Friday
    after all. Shoot up day for a jobber pro like me. I have work to do
    this weekend.

    Thanks,
    Ronde Champ
     
    Tags:


  2. B. Lafferty

    B. Lafferty Guest

    "Ronde Champ" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > Hey,
    >
    > We all need to step back and recognize the damage the drugs are doing
    > to the sport of cycling. At the risk of revealing my true identity,
    > the sport of professional cycling is at risk due to the negative image
    > brought on by controversial drug use.
    > There are so many riders doing drugs, that it is really difficult for
    > the clean riders to compete. As Alex Zuelle said, "It's hard to do
    > 55mph when everyone else is doing 70mph." Well, until they remove
    > rules, and have an open category of no holds barred, this will always
    > be done in the shadows of cycling.
    > I'm not even calculating the long term health risks. Read up on how
    > many 45-50 year old former football players die from various organ
    > disorders. No 22 year old cyclist faced with the stark reality of
    > working a real job if they don't make it ever cares about this. They,
    > 'you' will live forever. And what's wrong with just stepping up for
    > this next big race. I'll only do it ONE time.
    > I know the same riders never care about sponsors. Think about why
    > they put cash into cycling. It isn't to make your dreams come true.
    > It's advertising 101. All the bad press cycling is getting threatens
    > to kill our sport. The sponsors will gravitate to other sports or ways
    > to get their brand out there. Look at mainstream press in this buildup
    > to the Tour de France. Find an article that doesn't mention drugs.
    > CEO's will not continue sponsoring if it means the could suffer a hit
    > to their company name and more importantly, bottomline and/or stock
    > price.
    > If everyone is doing the 'program', aren't we still just competing
    > against each other on a new level? It would be beautiful for my
    > wallet, health, mental state, and grandchildren to be, if we could
    > just race our bikes while remaining clean. The ironic thing is that
    > many of us started riding because it is so healthy. It makes you
    > strong, and can add quality to our years, and years to our life. What
    > we are all playing with tampers with that, and may even be the most
    > unhealthy thing we ever do to our body. Most o fthis has become back
    > alley, and unregulated. I'll shot this cause this veteran rider does.
    > I have know idea of side effects, other than I will ride real fast for
    > the next race.
    >
    > 5 years from now things will be much worse for our sport, or much
    > better. It will not continue down this same path. Maybe WADA and USADA
    > and IOC and UCI will actually win this war on drugs. For my health, I
    > hope so. Until then, I have a syringe waiting for me. It is Friday
    > after all. Shoot up day for a jobber pro like me. I have work to do
    > this weekend.
    >
    > Thanks,
    > Ronde Champ


    Oh really! It's only 5% of the peloton that are using drugs. The top guys
    must be clean--they say they are and they've never tested positive.
     
  3. whats this business of not revealing your "identity"... i am erik saunders...
    my name is ERIK SAUNDERS... i have a website... its called eriksaunders.com....

    drugs suck, duh... i laugh at all those guys trying to break through over there
    banging their heads against the wall... then i have to hear from some cat 3s
    about how the US pros arent good and we cant compete with the europeans... one
    of these days people will start to get it- the more they fry dudes like doper
    dave millar...he isnt a bad person, or a cheater in my eyes... he just looks
    like an idiot after all that has been said and all that has happened... i feel
    sorry for him a bit... and a bit not... and then after that i dont too much
    care...

    the truth is the truth... ok... but i dont like the french justice system where
    they can string you up like they do over some stupid BS like doping... there is
    an arrogance about the way they are doing this all that bothers me... believe
    me, there are a lot of other things that they could be doing with their time
    and over reaching power than going after poor millar for taking epo.. they are
    definetly having fun with this... i am glad i dont live in france where the
    cops can pull you over or take you in for no reason at all pretty much...

    there should be testing and sanctions and i dont think that they should do less
    to keep things honest... i just object to the french modus operandi...

    anyway- doping is such a big problem... bike racing is stupid anyway- lets not
    get carried away about the relative importance of cycling in the grand
    scheme... its just a big self- gratifying ego-fest... no dopers are taking away
    your chance to get to heaven... millar took epo... do you loose sleep at
    night?... does it keep you kids from a quality education?... does it stop you
    family from eating?... bike racing will still exist... the 30 plusers will
    still want to race in the industrial parks of southern california... dont
    worry... then i can race with them since pro cycling will die and i wont have a
    team anymore... i will have just as much fun...
     
  4. after some consideration i have decided that if the LA sheriffs took doping
    seriously as a crime worth investigating as rigorously as auto theft then i
    would take drugs... because then i could get chased and hit 11 times with a
    flashlight while lying prone- surrendering... then i could sue for millions and
    not care about having gotten a suspension and having been fired from my team...


    i guess in some ways it might better to live in france where the cops dont beat
    you up... unless you are black or arab and live in the ghetto... shit... never
    mind
     
  5. Tuschinski

    Tuschinski Guest

    Yeah, I agree with Erik... the French police seems to be completely
    warped.... This should be a case of the UCI and IOC, not of the
    French police.

    I think they are just trying to "score" politically. perhaps if and when
    someone (for example UCI, IOC, Organisations) put out charges on the
    dopee for monetary cheating (in other words doing monetary damage), THEN
    the judical system should kick in.

    Oh well, maybe the French police is doing the right thing (both
    morally/legally). BLEH

    I admit I don't care.... pro-cyclists are still my heroes when they do
    battle in France... doped or not.



    --
     
  6. Tim Mullin

    Tim Mullin Guest

    [email protected] (erik saunders) wrote in
    news:[email protected]:

    > ... i am glad i dont live in france where the cops can pull
    > you over or take you in for no reason at all pretty much...


    This from a black male in America? That's funny....
     
  7. trg

    trg Guest

    erik saunders wrote:
    > the truth is the truth... ok... but i dont like the french justice
    > system where they can string you up like they do over some stupid BS
    > like doping... there is an arrogance about the way they are doing
    > this all that bothers me... believe me, there are a lot of other
    > things that they could be doing with their time and over reaching
    > power than going after poor millar for taking epo.. they are
    > definetly having fun with this... i am glad i dont live in france
    > where the cops can pull you over or take you in for no reason at all
    > pretty much...
    >
    > there should be testing and sanctions and i dont think that they
    > should do less to keep things honest... i just object to the french
    > modus operandi...


    Um, buying, taking and selling drugs without a prescription is against the
    law, in France as well as in the US. Whether it's to enhance athletic
    performance, or just to get high, or to get hard, makes no difference.

    When I was on dialysis (in the US), I did not have access to EPO because it
    wasn't yet approved by the FDA. Had I somehow obtained it, taken it and sold
    it to other patients, I'd have been in big trouble. Why should cyclists get
    off easier than the rest of the general population?
     

  8. >
    >Um, buying, taking and selling drugs without a prescription is against the
    >law, in France as well as in the US. Whether it's to enhance athletic
    >performance, or just to get high, or to get hard, makes no difference.
    >
    >When I was on dialysis (in the US), I did not have access to EPO because it
    >wasn't yet approved by the FDA. Had I somehow obtained it, taken it and sold
    >it to other patients, I'd have been in big trouble. Why should cyclists get
    >off easier than the rest of the general population?
    >


    no doubt... as a law enforcment official you can go about your business
    investigating and prosecuting drug trafficking rings, normal... or you can do a
    big overblown public display making the guys who are using look like the alpha
    and omega of a crime, when in reality they are at the skinny tail end of a long
    line of illegal activity... lets see if they make as big a deal of where the
    drugs came from and who distributed them... was it someone at amgen who steals
    directy out of stock?.. or is it a pharmacist who sells things to people that
    he shouldnt?... does this pharmacist also sell other drugs to people?... is he
    a source of X on the street?... is he selling vicodin or xanex to who ever
    wants it?... thats the real deal there my freind... are kids in clubs getting
    hooked on shit that comes from this guy?... are they commiting crime to support
    an addiction?... thats the impact on society that needs to be judged in order
    to assign some relative importance to a case like this...

    laws dont concern me in the same way that they concern you i guess... i guess
    it is illegal in some places to import drugs from canada... i know people who
    get the hookup on some of their medications through underground channels...
    lock em up?... if you need epo for you health then i am not going to act like
    you sold crack to a pregnant mother because you found a cheaper way to get it,
    or becasue you got your hands on it before it was available... it would be
    dangerous for you to do it without a doctor to help you, but that stuff aint
    rocket science and if you think you have it figured out then i am not going to
    tell you its wrong for you to administer it to yourself... you arent hurting
    me... and you arent doing anything to make the world a worse place to live
    in...
     
  9. trg

    trg Guest

    erik saunders wrote:
    >> Um, buying, taking and selling drugs without a prescription is
    >> against the law, in France as well as in the US. Whether it's to
    >> enhance athletic performance, or just to get high, or to get hard,
    >> makes no difference.
    >>
    >> When I was on dialysis (in the US), I did not have access to EPO
    >> because it wasn't yet approved by the FDA. Had I somehow obtained
    >> it, taken it and sold it to other patients, I'd have been in big
    >> trouble. Why should cyclists get off easier than the rest of the
    >> general population?
    >>

    >
    > no doubt... as a law enforcment official you can go about your
    > business investigating and prosecuting drug trafficking rings,
    > normal... or you can do a big overblown public display making the
    > guys who are using look like the alpha and omega of a crime, when in
    > reality they are at the skinny tail end of a long line of illegal
    > activity... lets see if they make as big a deal of where the drugs
    > came from and who distributed them... was it someone at amgen who
    > steals directy out of stock?.. or is it a pharmacist who sells things
    > to people that he shouldnt?... does this pharmacist also sell other
    > drugs to people?... is he a source of X on the street?... is he
    > selling vicodin or xanex to who ever wants it?... thats the real deal
    > there my freind... are kids in clubs getting hooked on shit that
    > comes from this guy?... are they commiting crime to support an
    > addiction?... thats the impact on society that needs to be judged in
    > order to assign some relative importance to a case like this...
    >
    > laws dont concern me in the same way that they concern you i guess...
    > i guess it is illegal in some places to import drugs from canada... i
    > know people who get the hookup on some of their medications through
    > underground channels... lock em up?... if you need epo for you health
    > then i am not going to act like you sold crack to a pregnant mother
    > because you found a cheaper way to get it, or becasue you got your
    > hands on it before it was available... it would be dangerous for you
    > to do it without a doctor to help you, but that stuff aint rocket
    > science and if you think you have it figured out then i am not going
    > to tell you its wrong for you to administer it to yourself... you
    > arent hurting me... and you arent doing anything to make the world a
    > worse place to live in...


    You seem to be confusing the police and the press. The police are the ones
    who investigate the crime, the press are the ones who splash it all over the
    front pages. (And the police aren't the ones who make the laws either.)

    I'm not saying I agree with drug policy, either in the US or France (whether
    medical or recreational). In fact I don't. From what I can tell, my view is
    probably pretty close to your's. But I don't think the police should let
    athletes off easier than the rest of the population, just because they're
    famous, or heros, or generate a lot of money for the country and sponsors.

    In fact, I am sure that in terms of severity of punishment, the doctors and
    distributors involved will received a much harsher judgement than those who
    were only users (and occupy more of the police's and judge's time as well).
    But which one will you think will get all the media attention? Not the guy
    who works in the lab or at the pharmacy, but the world famous cyclist.
     
  10. Steve

    Steve Guest

    Yes......... FRANCE SUXXXX!!!!!

    Napoleonic Justice...
    GUILTY till proven Innocent!

    Butt! Suddam F'ing Hussen was INNOCENT till proven GUILTY




    On 6/25/04 5:43 AM, in article [email protected],
    "erik saunders" <[email protected]> wrote:

    > whats this business of not revealing your "identity"... i am erik saunders...
    > my name is ERIK SAUNDERS... i have a website... its called
    > eriksaunders.com....
    >
    > drugs suck, duh... i laugh at all those guys trying to break through over
    > there
    > banging their heads against the wall... then i have to hear from some cat 3s
    > about how the US pros arent good and we cant compete with the europeans... one
    > of these days people will start to get it- the more they fry dudes like doper
    > dave millar...he isnt a bad person, or a cheater in my eyes... he just looks
    > like an idiot after all that has been said and all that has happened... i feel
    > sorry for him a bit... and a bit not... and then after that i dont too much
    > care...
    >
    > the truth is the truth... ok... but i dont like the french justice system
    > where
    > they can string you up like they do over some stupid BS like doping... there
    > is
    > an arrogance about the way they are doing this all that bothers me... believe
    > me, there are a lot of other things that they could be doing with their time
    > and over reaching power than going after poor millar for taking epo.. they are
    > definetly having fun with this... i am glad i dont live in france where the
    > cops can pull you over or take you in for no reason at all pretty much...
    >
    > there should be testing and sanctions and i dont think that they should do
    > less
    > to keep things honest... i just object to the french modus operandi...
    >
    > anyway- doping is such a big problem... bike racing is stupid anyway- lets not
    > get carried away about the relative importance of cycling in the grand
    > scheme... its just a big self- gratifying ego-fest... no dopers are taking
    > away
    > your chance to get to heaven... millar took epo... do you loose sleep at
    > night?... does it keep you kids from a quality education?... does it stop you
    > family from eating?... bike racing will still exist... the 30 plusers will
    > still want to race in the industrial parks of southern california... dont
    > worry... then i can race with them since pro cycling will die and i wont have
    > a
    > team anymore... i will have just as much fun...
     
  11. SMMB

    SMMB Guest

    "erik saunders" <[email protected]> a écrit dans le message de :
    news:[email protected]
    > ... or you can do a
    > big overblown public display making the guys who are using look like the

    alpha
    > and omega of a crime, when in reality they are at the skinny tail end of a

    long
    > line of illegal activity...


    You have really missed the point. The point is not drugs. The point is
    cheating. The point is doing bad things. Not on a technical level, since
    as a lawyer, I have no illusions about factual misbehavior with respect to
    legislated rules. No, it's the other kind of behavior that is fundamentally
    right or wrong. When you take away all the prizes, money, public adulation,
    social status, something basic remains understood : people who do wrong
    things and have no right to our applause or admiration for these fraudulent
    achievements.

    But I see, in your relativistic analysis, the beginnings of a conscience.
    --
    Bonne route,

    Sandy
    Paris FR
     
  12. pedalchick

    pedalchick Guest

    Smmb wrote:
    > "erik saunders" <[email protected]> a écrit dans le message de : news:[email protected]
    > m28.aol.comnews:[email protected]
    > > ... or you can do a big overblown public display making the guys who
    > > are using look like the

    > alpha
    > > and omega of a crime, when in reality they are at the skinny tail
    > > end of a

    > long
    > > line of illegal activity...

    > You have really missed the point. The point is not drugs. The point is
    > cheating. The point is doing bad things. Not on a technical level, since
    > as a lawyer, I have no illusions about factual misbehavior with respect
    > to legislated rules. No, it's the other kind of behavior that is
    > fundamentally right or wrong. When you take away all the prizes, money,
    > public adulation, social status, something basic remains understood :
    > people who do wrong things and have no right to our applause or
    > admiration for these fraudulent achievements.
    > But I see, in your relativistic analysis, the beginnings of a
    > conscience.
    > --
    > Bonne route,
    > Sandy Paris FR




    I'm going to have to side with Erik on this - sport is, after all,
    SPORT. It's a game. It's supposed to be recreation, entertainment. If
    the euro-pros want their version of the sport to be akin to professional
    wrestling, all smoke, mirrors and bashing each other with folding
    chairs, then so be it. I support the idea of anti-doping to keep
    athletes healthy and safe from directors forcing them to inject unknown
    substances into their bodies. I think it is the responsibility of the
    teams and the UCI to create an atmosphere where doping is discouraged. I
    think cheaters should be kicked out of the sport, as is happening more
    an dmore lately. However, as it is a GAME, a SPORT, and ENTERTAINMENT, I
    think doping should remain policed by the organizations created to
    police the sport, not by the people who are supposed to be going after
    murderers. If anyone is to be criminally prosecuted, it should be the
    doctors, pharmacists and even the pharmaceutical companies that allow
    the drugs to get into riders' hands. It's akin to the Oxycontin problem.
    Don't the makers of EPO realize that their product is disappearing way
    faster in Europe than the clinical need could ever account for?

    I think that the current frenzy over doping in sport is getting a bit
    ridiculous. That the Balco deal went all the way to the US Congress
    amazes me. I realize that Olympic athletes represent one's country, and
    to have a doping scandal would reflect negatively on the country, but
    it's not like it is a matter of national security. It's just another
    topic that excites the public and allows people who would be totally
    anonymous for their entire lives to get their 15 minutes of fame by
    indicting some poor athlete for (alleged) doping. And don't even get me
    started on USADA banning athletes for life just for a doping allegation
    in leiu of a positive test or admission of guilt.

    Perspective -- if Lance admits to doping, do you want to see the guy rot
    in some French prison?



    --
     
  13. SMMB wrote:
    > "erik saunders" <[email protected]> a écrit dans le message de :
    > news:[email protected]
    >
    >>... or you can do a
    >>big overblown public display making the guys who are using look like the

    >
    > alpha
    >
    >>and omega of a crime, when in reality they are at the skinny tail end of a

    >
    > long
    >
    >>line of illegal activity...

    >
    >
    > You have really missed the point. The point is not drugs. The point is
    > cheating. The point is doing bad things. Not on a technical level, since
    > as a lawyer, I have no illusions about factual misbehavior with respect to
    > legislated rules. No, it's the other kind of behavior that is fundamentally
    > right or wrong. When you take away all the prizes, money, public adulation,
    > social status, something basic remains understood : people who do wrong
    > things and have no right to our applause or admiration for these fraudulent
    > achievements.
    >
    > But I see, in your relativistic analysis, the beginnings of a conscience.


    ok jabby fighter...

    i get your point- i understand where you are coming from... but for me
    right and wrong dont have much to do with this situation... that is to
    say that it is not my point of view on this... and even so, no one has
    the right to anyone's applause or adulation... it is the right of each
    individual to decide to whom he will give it... its egotistical to
    assume that someone would endanger his health and reputation to have you
    clap for him!... its not about that.. now, if people want to give it up
    for guys who take epo in bike races then thats ok by me... it is each
    fan's decision to make...

    its not a moral question for me... i dont care about right or wrong per
    se... right and wrong is between you and your god... i have nothing to
    do with that... i dont care about doping in sports as much as some
    people do (obviously)... as a pro cyclist it doesnt bother me at all
    that some riders take drugs and i have to race against them... but i
    have to say that i have a problem with people who want to act any kind
    of way they want and it puts me in danger... thats what the courts and
    cops and laws are for- to protect me so that i can enjoy my life... if i
    live in a crack neihborhood and i have to have stray bullets fly by my
    house because there is a drug fight, then i dont care about morality, i
    care about my safety and the safety of my family... i care about theft
    because i dont want to get my shit took.. i care about murder becasue i
    dont want to live in a world where its ok to kill people...

    i care about impact on society... the question is this- will the press
    and the french judicial/prosecutorial system follow this to the source
    or will they make a show out of it to make people feel good about the
    progress being made on the doping front?... so that some french guy can
    read in the morning about how effective the justice system is and say to
    himself "hmm... the system works, good"... we all know that doping in
    sports is a scandal for the journalists almost exclusively... some of us
    then get to speak out in moral indignation but even that seems "louche"
    to me...

    what is the real impact on society in all this?... on the millar end of
    things- very little... when does this little ripple turn into a giant
    wave that will overwhelm me or my family?... it doesnt, so it seems to
    me that all this time spent by the french on sports dopers isnt doing a
    single thing to make life easier for the french public... there arent
    murderous epo gangs making life unsafe for law abiding citizens and
    their children in the streets of biaritz... so why all the damned
    fuss?... for show, thats what for... i call BS on it.. the real story is
    where these drugs came from and wether or not there is a link to drug
    trafficking that actually has an impact on the safety of teh kids in
    biaritz who want to play outside... (maybe they dont have ghettos there-
    i dont know, ive never been)... thats what the criminal courts and
    police are there for- public safety... not to enforce morality through
    law...

    this is a link to an interview i did for daily peloton.. you will better
    understand my philosophy after you read it...

    http://www.dailypeloton.com/displayarticle.asp?pk=5865
     
  14. [email protected] (Ronde Champ) wrote in message It is Friday
    > after all. Shoot up day for a jobber pro like me. I have work to do
    > this weekend.
    >
    > Thanks,
    > Ronde Champ


    Moron -

    Even though it is probably hard for you, bike racing ain't work.

    -RJ
     
  15. kaiser

    kaiser Guest

    Ronde,

    You say that you are a pro. And you've made quite a statement (aside
    from all the colorful jabs you make throughout the year).

    So now it is your turn. Not only to reveal your identity, but to go
    out and take your dope test and release the results to all of us.

    Be sure also to detail EVERYTHING (aside from regular food) that you
    pump into your body. Supplements. Injectables. Other concoctions.
    All of it.

    If you are truly clean, then "show us your shorts" so to speak.



    Much deleted (phew)
    > Thanks,
    > Ronde Champ
     
  16. kaiser

    kaiser Guest

    Now if the LA Sheiff's had only taken CYCLING as seriously as they
    take drug enforcement and auto theft ;-) A bit ironic, eh? Them
    being a former sponsor of a domestic pro team and all.

    [email protected] (erik saunders) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > after some consideration i have decided that if the LA sheriffs took doping
    > seriously as a crime worth investigating as rigorously as auto theft then i
    > would take drugs... because then i could get chased and hit 11 times with a
    > flashlight while lying prone- surrendering... then i could sue for millions and
    > not care about having gotten a suspension and having been fired from my team...
    >
    >
    > i guess in some ways it might better to live in france where the cops dont beat
    > you up... unless you are black or arab and live in the ghetto... shit... never
    > mind
     
  17. derby

    derby Guest

    Kaiser wrote:
    > So now it is your turn...to reveal your identity...




    He's Batman.:rolleyes:



    --
     
  18. On Fri, 25 Jun 2004 19:47:42 GMT, pedalchick
    <[email protected]> wrote:


    >
    >I'm going to have to side with Erik on this - sport is, after all,
    >SPORT. It's a game. It's supposed to be recreation, entertainment. If
    >the euro-pros want their version of the sport to be akin to professional
    >wrestling, all smoke, mirrors and bashing each other with folding
    >chairs, then so be it. I support the idea of anti-doping to keep
    >athletes healthy and safe from directors forcing them to inject unknown
    >substances into their bodies. I think it is the responsibility of the
    >teams and the UCI to create an atmosphere where doping is discouraged. I
    >think cheaters should be kicked out of the sport, as is happening more
    >an dmore lately. However, as it is a GAME, a SPORT, and ENTERTAINMENT, I
    >think doping should remain policed by the organizations created to
    >police the sport, not by the people who are supposed to be going after
    >murderers.


    But what about the young pros Duch pros dropping dead in the early
    1990s. And what about the good amateur cyclists who treat it as a
    game (like you) that get beat on by doped pros. That's not right.
    And what about the supposed frequent use of illegal drugs by high
    school and college athletes in the US in a variety of sports (and, I
    imagine, similar stuff at the youth and amateur levels in Europe.

    I'm not saying a lot of public resources and publicity should be spent
    on high profile criminal action against athletes, but it's not right
    to accept hypocrisy and lying in any aspect of society.

    I would hope the focus of any political/criminal action is on the
    whole structure that facilititates doping, and that one upshot is more
    recognition in society in general that such widespread cheating is not
    right in sport, as it is not right in any aspect of life.

    JT
     
  19. John Forrest Tomlinson <[email protected]> wrote:

    > But what about the young pros Duch pros dropping dead in the early
    > 1990s. And what about the good amateur cyclists who treat it as a
    > game (like you) that get beat on by doped pros. That's not right.
    > And what about the supposed frequent use of illegal drugs by high
    > school and college athletes in the US in a variety of sports (and, I
    > imagine, similar stuff at the youth and amateur levels in Europe.


    > I'm not saying a lot of public resources and publicity should be spent
    > on high profile criminal action against athletes, but it's not right
    > to accept hypocrisy and lying in any aspect of society.


    > I would hope the focus of any political/criminal action is on the
    > whole structure that facilititates doping, and that one upshot is more
    > recognition in society in general that such widespread cheating is not
    > right in sport, as it is not right in any aspect of life.


    I hope the focus is on the structure too, but that doesn't make
    the headlines the way that rounding up famous athletes does.
    How are these guys getting their EPO? There have been prosecutions
    of suppliers and sleazy pharmacists in France and Belgium IIRC,
    but in the Cofidis investigation much more emphasis has been
    put on the riders than on wherever the drugs came from. IMO
    supplying drugs illegally is a worse crime than buying them, and
    doctors who are involved are the worst of all.
    To some extent the same thing happens in the USA with respect
    to recreational drugs - most of the busted are users and small fry.

    The BALCO investigation is gratifyingly focusing on suppliers and
    coaches, but even that case probably gets the resources it does
    because of the high-profile client list.

    Anyway, I wonder if most of France was even paying attention yet;
    they'll start the day after tomorrow, after the Euro 2004
    post-mortem. On second thought, that may take more than one day.
     
  20. "pedalchick" <[email protected]> wrote in message

    > If anyone is to be criminally prosecuted, it should be the
    > doctors, pharmacists and even the pharmaceutical companies that allow
    > the drugs to get into riders' hands. It's akin to the Oxycontin problem.
    > Don't the makers of EPO realize that their product is disappearing way
    > faster in Europe than the clinical need could ever account for?
    >


    How do you know? What percentage of EPO is not being used for clinical need?

    Let's just go hypothetically crazy and say that there are 10,000 European
    athletes in aerobic sports using EPO (and I'm not claiming that there
    actually are). Using a population of 300 million for Western Europe (wild
    guess, roughly the population of the USA), that is equivalent to 1 in 30,000
    people are using EPO for performance. I have no idea whatsoever what the
    clinical applications are for EPO other than for symptoms of chemotherapy,
    but I'm sure there must be more.

    Also the athlete's use is not for acute anemia, it's to 'top off their
    tank', so their usage should be a fraction of the legitimate users' needs.

    Ultimately, I'm not convinced that there is a significant dent in the usage
    of EPO for clinical usage by improper usage, and I don't consider much if
    any of the culpability for criminal prosecution to lay with the
    manufacturers
     
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