Message direct to all fellow professional cyclists

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by Ronde Champ, Jun 25, 2004.

  1. "Benjamin Weiner" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >
    > I hope the focus is on the structure too, but that doesn't make
    > the headlines the way that rounding up famous athletes does.
    > How are these guys getting their EPO? There have been prosecutions
    > of suppliers and sleazy pharmacists in France and Belgium IIRC,
    > but in the Cofidis investigation much more emphasis has been
    > put on the riders than on wherever the drugs came from. IMO
    > supplying drugs illegally is a worse crime than buying them, and
    > doctors who are involved are the worst of all.


    Do we even know if a prescription is required for EPO in various countries
    in Europe?
     


  2. kaiser

    kaiser Guest

    You don't get it...The French justice system ignored the issue for
    years, waiting for the UCI to clean their own house. They lost
    patience after so many idiots (Rumsas' wife and such) end up stumbling
    into France with carloads of EPO as they crossed the border. What are
    you supposed to do then? Ignore it? I think it is safe to say that
    they want the problem erradicated, and they have lost faith in the
    UCI.

    Tuschinski <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > Yeah, I agree with Erik... the French police seems to be completely
    > warped.... This should be a case of the UCI and IOC, not of the
    > French police.
    >
    > I think they are just trying to "score" politically. perhaps if and when
    > someone (for example UCI, IOC, Organisations) put out charges on the
    > dopee for monetary cheating (in other words doing monetary damage), THEN
    > the judical system should kick in.
    >
    > Oh well, maybe the French police is doing the right thing (both
    > morally/legally). BLEH
    >
    > I admit I don't care.... pro-cyclists are still my heroes when they do
    > battle in France... doped or not.
    >
    >
    >
    > --
     
  3. kaiser

    kaiser Guest

    I have no knowledge of dispensing laws in Europe. I know that in
    Mexico, you can walk into a pharmacy on avenida revolucion in TJ, ask
    for whatever drug they have in stock, and walk out the door with it.
    No prescription needed. No questions asked. "Gracias! Buenos dias!"

    If it's that easy in Europe, then you can blame entire nations for
    being so lax in their drug dispensing laws.

    The riders in the USA that are getting their hands on EPO are not
    likely to be getting it from crooked Amgen workers, or even
    pharmacists, because these medications are so tightly inventoried.
    They'd have to create a hell of a fake paper trail (with their name
    all over it) in order to do this. Keep your eyes on the pros who
    choose to live in San Diego (wink wink).

    [email protected] (erik saunders) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > >
    > >Um, buying, taking and selling drugs without a prescription is against the
    > >law, in France as well as in the US. Whether it's to enhance athletic
    > >performance, or just to get high, or to get hard, makes no difference.
    > >
    > >When I was on dialysis (in the US), I did not have access to EPO because it
    > >wasn't yet approved by the FDA. Had I somehow obtained it, taken it and sold
    > >it to other patients, I'd have been in big trouble. Why should cyclists get
    > >off easier than the rest of the general population?
    > >

    >
    > no doubt... as a law enforcment official you can go about your business
    > investigating and prosecuting drug trafficking rings, normal... or you can do a
    > big overblown public display making the guys who are using look like the alpha
    > and omega of a crime, when in reality they are at the skinny tail end of a long
    > line of illegal activity... lets see if they make as big a deal of where the
    > drugs came from and who distributed them... was it someone at amgen who steals
    > directy out of stock?.. or is it a pharmacist who sells things to people that
    > he shouldnt?... does this pharmacist also sell other drugs to people?... is he
    > a source of X on the street?... is he selling vicodin or xanex to who ever
    > wants it?... thats the real deal there my freind... are kids in clubs getting
    > hooked on shit that comes from this guy?... are they commiting crime to support
    > an addiction?... thats the impact on society that needs to be judged in order
    > to assign some relative importance to a case like this...
    >
    > laws dont concern me in the same way that they concern you i guess... i guess
    > it is illegal in some places to import drugs from canada... i know people who
    > get the hookup on some of their medications through underground channels...
    > lock em up?... if you need epo for you health then i am not going to act like
    > you sold crack to a pregnant mother because you found a cheaper way to get it,
    > or becasue you got your hands on it before it was available... it would be
    > dangerous for you to do it without a doctor to help you, but that stuff aint
    > rocket science and if you think you have it figured out then i am not going to
    > tell you its wrong for you to administer it to yourself... you arent hurting
    > me... and you arent doing anything to make the world a worse place to live
    > in...
     
  4. "kaiser" <[email protected]> wrote in message

    > The riders in the USA that are getting their hands on EPO are not
    > likely to be getting it from crooked Amgen workers, or even
    > pharmacists, because these medications are so tightly inventoried.
    > They'd have to create a hell of a fake paper trail (with their name
    > all over it) in order to do this. Keep your eyes on the pros who
    > choose to live in San Diego (wink wink).
    >


    Given that over the past 10 years or so riders like Axel Merckx, the Telekom
    team and others have gone to San Diego in the winter for training, I don't
    think they did it for the proximity to TJ's pharmacies.
     
  5. kaiser

    kaiser Guest

    Remember pantani? He became EPO dependent. His crit level crashed
    when he went into the hospital for his leg. Abusers of EPO eventually
    lose the ability to produce the hormone naturally if they do not curb
    the behavior. The body gets pissed-off and says "why bother?"

    How many riders out there are using it just to stay alive now?
    Probably a lot.

    "Carl Sundquist" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > "pedalchick" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >
    > > If anyone is to be criminally prosecuted, it should be the
    > > doctors, pharmacists and even the pharmaceutical companies that allow
    > > the drugs to get into riders' hands. It's akin to the Oxycontin problem.
    > > Don't the makers of EPO realize that their product is disappearing way
    > > faster in Europe than the clinical need could ever account for?
    > >

    >
    > How do you know? What percentage of EPO is not being used for clinical need?
    > po
    > Let's just go hypothetically crazy and say that there are 10,000 European
    > athletes in aerobic sports using EPO (and I'm not claiming that there
    > actually are). Using a population of 300 million for Western Europe (wild
    > guess, roughly the population of the USA), that is equivalent to 1 in 30,000
    > people are using EPO for performance. I have no idea whatsoever what the
    > clinical applications are for EPO other than for symptoms of chemotherapy,
    > but I'm sure there must be more.
    >
    > Also the athlete's use is not for acute anemia, it's to 'top off their
    > tank', so their usage should be a fraction of the legitimate users' needs.
    >
    > Ultimately, I'm not convinced that there is a significant dent in the usage
    > of EPO for clinical usage by improper usage, and I don't consider much if
    > any of the culpability for criminal prosecution to lay with the
    > manufacturers
     
  6. warren

    warren Guest

    In article <yj%[email protected]>, pedalchick
    <[email protected]> wrote:


    > I'm going to have to side with Erik on this - sport is, after all,SPORT. It's
    > a game. It's supposed to be recreation, entertainment. Ifthe euro-pros want
    > their version of the sport to be akin to professionalwrestling, all smoke,
    > mirrors and bashing each other with foldingchairs, then so be it. I support
    > the idea of anti-doping to keepathletes healthy and safe from directors
    > forcing them to inject unknownsubstances into their bodies. I think it is the
    > responsibility of theteams and the UCI to create an atmosphere where doping
    > is discouraged. Ithink cheaters should be kicked out of the sport, as is
    > happening morean dmore lately. However, as it is a GAME, a SPORT, and
    > ENTERTAINMENT,


    This is why the Euros usually have a different view about doping in
    cycling. For most of them it is a job, not so much a sport, and most
    jobs carry some risk in the course of doing that job. The rider goes to
    his team doctor and asks about the risks of using EPO or GH or... and
    the doctor tells him the risks, most of which are vague and unknown
    over the long term. The rider says, well if I don't use these products
    I will have to go work in a factory or drive a truck and I could get
    hurt there or get a dibilitating injury just like I might from using
    products that could hurt me in the long term, or I won't make $100K+ a
    year to support my family in the manner they enjoy now, etc.

    As far as cheating with doping, don't many people cheat a little at
    their job? The truck driver drives over the speed limit to get more
    work, or the factory guy cuts a few corners here and there to make his
    work a little easier or more productive. These are the terms that are
    in place for many Euro-pros in cycling.

    For nearly all American pros in Europe bike racing is a sport, for
    nearly all of the guys racing with them it is a job.

    The boss comes to you and tells you if you don't increase your work
    output 10% they're going to fire you or drop your pay 30%, what are you
    going to do?

    -WG
     
  7. TM

    TM Guest

    "warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:260620040920588413%[email protected]
    >
    > This is why the Euros usually have a different view about doping in
    > cycling.


    Lyle Azado.

    Same church, different pew.
     
  8. "kaiser" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > Remember pantani? He became EPO dependent. His crit level crashed
    > when he went into the hospital for his leg. Abusers of EPO eventually
    > lose the ability to produce the hormone naturally if they do not curb
    > the behavior. The body gets pissed-off and says "why bother?"
    >
    > How many riders out there are using it just to stay alive now?
    > Probably a lot.
    >


    Did the lose the ability to produce natural EPO permanently or need to wean
    off it?

    The human body is incredibly adaptive. Just as it sees fit to stop naturally
    producing EPO to maintain a normal equilibrium, it should eventually kick in
    and begin to produce it again when it senses that the equilibrium is
    abnormal in the other direction.
     
  9. chris

    chris Guest

    You would think that, but it doesn't. Sometimes we f--k our bodies
    too much for them to sort it all out. Little injuries add up into big
    problems and hormone replacement can really screw you up. I can say
    for sure that I would steer clear of insulin, hGH and probably EPO
    because I want to function normally when I'm 55, rather than worrying
    about going blind or losing limbs.

    CH
    "Carl Sundquist" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > "kaiser" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    > > Remember pantani? He became EPO dependent. His crit level crashed
    > > when he went into the hospital for his leg. Abusers of EPO eventually
    > > lose the ability to produce the hormone naturally if they do not curb
    > > the behavior. The body gets pissed-off and says "why bother?"
    > >
    > > How many riders out there are using it just to stay alive now?
    > > Probably a lot.
    > >

    >
    > Did the lose the ability to produce natural EPO permanently or need to wean
    > off it?
    >
    > The human body is incredibly adaptive. Just as it sees fit to stop naturally
    > producing EPO to maintain a normal equilibrium, it should eventually kick in
    > and begin to produce it again when it senses that the equilibrium is
    > abnormal in the other direction.
     
  10. warren

    warren Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, chris
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    > You would think that, but it doesn't. Sometimes we f--k our bodies
    > too much for them to sort it all out. Little injuries add up into big
    > problems and hormone replacement can really screw you up. I can say
    > for sure that I would steer clear of insulin, hGH and probably EPO
    > because I want to function normally when I'm 55, rather than worrying
    > about going blind or losing limbs.


    Not even for a few wins at Superweek?



    -WG
     
  11. Kyle Legate

    Kyle Legate Guest

    kaiser wrote:
    > Remember pantani? He became EPO dependent. His crit level crashed
    > when he went into the hospital for his leg. Abusers of EPO eventually
    > lose the ability to produce the hormone naturally if they do not curb
    > the behavior. The body gets pissed-off and says "why bother?"
    >

    Sample size of one and you draw a general conclusion from this? Pantani was
    an anomaly; I'm waiting for the first pro-cyclist-turned-diabetic, or
    hGH-dependent.

    > How many riders out there are using it just to stay alive now?
    > Probably a lot.
    >

    To make a living--plenty. To stay alive--if not none, than not many.
     
  12. Tom Kunich

    Tom Kunich Guest

    "kaiser" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > Remember pantani? He became EPO dependent. His crit level crashed
    > when he went into the hospital for his leg. Abusers of EPO eventually
    > lose the ability to produce the hormone naturally if they do not curb
    > the behavior. The body gets pissed-off and says "why bother?"


    Err, don't depend upon rumor. It is possible that you can develop an allergy
    to many things given in large enough doses over a long enough period of
    time. But there's a greater chance that you're body will simply ignore it if
    it's close enough biologically to your own hormones.

    > How many riders out there are using it just to stay alive now?
    > Probably a lot.


    Probably almost none. And I would expect that if you moderated the drug to
    normal levels the dependence would soon disappear and you could carry on
    normally. BUT there IS a chance that you could develop a life-long
    dependence because given the proper circumstances you could die in rather
    short order.
     
  13. Tom Kunich wrote:
    > "kaiser" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    >
    >>Remember pantani? He became EPO dependent. His crit level crashed
    >>when he went into the hospital for his leg. Abusers of EPO eventually
    >>lose the ability to produce the hormone naturally if they do not curb
    >>the behavior. The body gets pissed-off and says "why bother?"

    >
    >
    > Err, don't depend upon rumor. It is possible that you can develop an allergy
    > to many things given in large enough doses over a long enough period of
    > time. But there's a greater chance that you're body will simply ignore it if
    > it's close enough biologically to your own hormones.
    >
    >
    >>How many riders out there are using it just to stay alive now?
    >>Probably a lot.

    >
    >
    > Probably almost none. And I would expect that if you moderated the drug to
    > normal levels the dependence would soon disappear and you could carry on
    > normally. BUT there IS a chance that you could develop a life-long
    > dependence because given the proper circumstances you could die in rather
    > short order.


    I've never heard of "dependence" as such. This kind of dependence is
    common for drugs related to the adrenocortico-pituitary axis. It is
    quite possible that it does exist based on a different feedback mechanism.
    Anyone out there have a PDR handy?

    Steve

    >
    >
     
  14. trg

    trg Guest

    Carl Sundquist wrote:
    > "kaiser" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    >> Remember pantani? He became EPO dependent. His crit level crashed
    >> when he went into the hospital for his leg. Abusers of EPO
    >> eventually lose the ability to produce the hormone naturally if they
    >> do not curb the behavior. The body gets pissed-off and says "why
    >> bother?"
    >>
    >> How many riders out there are using it just to stay alive now?
    >> Probably a lot.
    >>

    >
    > Did the lose the ability to produce natural EPO permanently or need
    > to wean off it?


    I took EPO for a couple of years because my body stopped producing it due to
    kidney problems. When the kidney problems were resolved, EPO production
    started again. That suggests that weaning would work.
     
  15. kaiser

    kaiser Guest

    In Pantani's case, he was injured during a period of heavy EPO use.
    He badly broke his leg in a race and required extensive orthopaedic
    surgery to repair it. When they tested his crit, it was so high they
    had to postpone the surgery to figure out what was going on with his
    blood.

    The next day, when they re-checked his crit, it had crashed to
    dangerously low levels. He'd been abusing it for so long, he body
    ceased production.

    I'm not a doctor, and obviously they were able to save Pantani without
    keeping him full of EPO (but they must have had to give it to
    stabilize him). But then again, Pantani came close to not surviving
    the encounter, and not because of his leg injury.

    I can imagine situations (with more serious injuries) that could come
    up where the rider will not survive the encounter.

    Steven Bornfeld <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > Tom Kunich wrote:
    > > "kaiser" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:[email protected]
    > >
    > >>Remember pantani? He became EPO dependent. His crit level crashed
    > >>when he went into the hospital for his leg. Abusers of EPO eventually
    > >>lose the ability to produce the hormone naturally if they do not curb
    > >>the behavior. The body gets pissed-off and says "why bother?"

    > >
    > >
    > > Err, don't depend upon rumor. It is possible that you can develop an allergy
    > > to many things given in large enough doses over a long enough period of
    > > time. But there's a greater chance that you're body will simply ignore it if
    > > it's close enough biologically to your own hormones.
    > >
    > >
    > >>How many riders out there are using it just to stay alive now?
    > >>Probably a lot.

    > >
    > >
    > > Probably almost none. And I would expect that if you moderated the drug to
    > > normal levels the dependence would soon disappear and you could carry on
    > > normally. BUT there IS a chance that you could develop a life-long
    > > dependence because given the proper circumstances you could die in rather
    > > short order.

    >
    > I've never heard of "dependence" as such. This kind of dependence is
    > common for drugs related to the adrenocortico-pituitary axis. It is
    > quite possible that it does exist based on a different feedback mechanism.
    > Anyone out there have a PDR handy?
    >
    > Steve
    >
    > >
    > >
     
  16. "kaiser" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > In Pantani's case, he was injured during a period of heavy EPO use.
    > He badly broke his leg in a race and required extensive orthopaedic
    > surgery to repair it. When they tested his crit, it was so high they
    > had to postpone the surgery to figure out what was going on with his
    > blood.
    >
    > The next day, when they re-checked his crit, it had crashed to
    > dangerously low levels. He'd been abusing it for so long, he body
    > ceased production.
    >


    Why do you think RBC production (or lack thereof) should effect huge swings
    in hematocrit levels on a day to day basis? IIRC, the typical lifespan of a
    mature RBC is 5-8 weeks.
     
  17. Ryan Barrett

    Ryan Barrett Guest

    >
    > this is a link to an interview i did for daily peloton.. you will better
    > understand my philosophy after you read it...
    >
    > http://www.dailypeloton.com/displayarticle.asp?pk=5865


    We should've gotten more into this during the interview 'cause I
    wholeheartedly disagree with you. Don't get me wrong, it's pretty
    evident that gang fights in the street are a bigger issue than doping
    in sports, but I don't understand how someone who makes their living
    racing bikes can say, "I don't care if my competition cheats". That
    just doesn't make any sense.
    Maybe we should fight about it; I'm pretty sure I could take you.

    RB
     
  18. gym gravity

    gym gravity Guest

    Carl Sundquist wrote:

    > "kaiser" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    >
    >>In Pantani's case, he was injured during a period of heavy EPO use.
    >>He badly broke his leg in a race and required extensive orthopaedic
    >>surgery to repair it. When they tested his crit, it was so high they
    >>had to postpone the surgery to figure out what was going on with his
    >>blood.
    >>
    >>The next day, when they re-checked his crit, it had crashed to
    >>dangerously low levels. He'd been abusing it for so long, he body
    >>ceased production.
    >>

    >
    >
    > Why do you think RBC production (or lack thereof) should effect huge swings
    > in hematocrit levels on a day to day basis? IIRC, the typical lifespan of a
    > mature RBC is 5-8 weeks.
    >
    >

    Yeah. I read that he was being visited in hospital by his team doctors
    and whatever it was that I read implied that they had something to do
    with it. like that they bled him too much to lower it. The next day,
    his crit was high again. this stuff couldn't be natural rbc destruction
    and rebound.
     
  19. trg

    trg Guest

    Carl Sundquist wrote:
    > "kaiser" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    >> In Pantani's case, he was injured during a period of heavy EPO use.
    >> He badly broke his leg in a race and required extensive orthopaedic
    >> surgery to repair it. When they tested his crit, it was so high they
    >> had to postpone the surgery to figure out what was going on with his
    >> blood.
    >>
    >> The next day, when they re-checked his crit, it had crashed to
    >> dangerously low levels. He'd been abusing it for so long, he body
    >> ceased production.
    >>

    >
    > Why do you think RBC production (or lack thereof) should effect huge
    > swings in hematocrit levels on a day to day basis? IIRC, the typical
    > lifespan of a mature RBC is 5-8 weeks.


    Took me a 4-6 weeks to go from 22 to 40ish after starting EPO.
     
  20. gym gravity

    gym gravity Guest

    kaiser wrote:

    > The riders in the USA that are getting their hands on EPO are not
    > likely to be getting it from crooked Amgen workers, or even
    > pharmacists, because these medications are so tightly inventoried.


    Maybe, maybe not. there is often more than one step between the loading
    dock at Amgen and the pharmacists refrigerator. 60 minutes or some such
    show did a story on the unregulated nature of prescription drug
    distribution and the associated frauds about two years ago, right around
    christmas time. Phony distributers were cutting product up like a coke
    dealer. The story explicitly focussed on injectables like EPO and HGH
    that were being diluted, split, repackaged and delivered to the
    pharmacies. The FDA is working hard to close the door by implimenting
    special stickers in the labels that can be scanned. The way it was
    (is), a counterfeiter could make labels on a PC and a printer (at least
    the show said this) and injectable solutions are the easiest drugs to
    tamper with, since they aren't in pill form.

    I couldn't find a link to the same story online, but here is one:
    http://pubs.acs.org/cen/coverstory/8145/8145drugs.html

    Here is a story that looks very similar but doesn't mention EPO like the
    TV show did:
    http://abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/Living/counterfeit_drugs_040316-1.html

    Here's a list of the drugs most likely to have been,"determined to be
    susceptible to adulteration, counterfeiting or diversion":
    http://www.nabp.net/ftpfiles/NABP01/slsdp.pdf

    What the FDA has to say about it:
    http://www.fda.gov/oc/initiatives/counterfeit/report02_04.html
     
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