[email protected] (alexandria) wrote in message
news:<
[email protected]>...
> >
[email protected] (Coyote) wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> > >
> > > I think the most complete track athletes of all are the best of the decathlon and heptathlon.
> > > Tomas Dvorak, Dan O'Brien, Daley Thompson, Bruce Jenner, Roman Sebrle, and of coure
> > > Jackie-Joyner Kersee (the greatest American woman track athlete ever). Most track afficianados
> > > consider the best athlete in the world to be determined in this event.
>
> You missed my point. Best Athlete. That's the keyword. It's not same as 'Best Runner'. I made an
> analogy of runners for swimmers (based on the premise of fastest movement over given distance,
> hence I discounted field events). 'straight runners' as 'freestylers (crawl)', other running
> styles (hurdle, jump, walk) as other swimming styles (back, fly, breast). In straight 100 track,
> you can walk, run, jump, cartwheel your way to the finish line. In swimming freestyle events, you
> can crawl, fly, back, breast your way to the finish line. whichever faster for you.
>
> Was Jackie-Joyner Kersee the best runner in her heyday ? NO. Is Tomas Dvorak best male runner now
> ? NO. In aquatic sports, Heptahtlon and Decathlon would be like combining all aquatic events into
> one. Best male sprinter runner is either Tim Montgomery or Maurice Green. Best male Middle
> Distance runner is either Hicham El Guerrouj or Wilson Kipketer. Best Distance runner EVER is
> probably Haile Gebreselasie. Ditto with Female. Best sprinter is Marion Jones. Best Middle
> Distance is Maria Mutola. For distance events, there is no clear 'best' right now. But if Paula
> Radcliffe starts running 10,000 soon, she'll be the best distance runner.
>
> Best male hurdlers are Allen Johnson and Felix Sanchez. Best female hrudlers is Gail Devers (for
> 100m). Edwin Moses is the greatest male 400 m hurdler ever, but *never* greatest male runner ever,
> neither are Devers and Johnson. Gail Devers has also won 2 olympic golds in 100m run. Irina
> Privalova who was mainly sprinter made a switch in sydney to 400 hurdle, and she won. Carl Lewis
> and Marion Jones are also great jumpers because they are great sprinters. But Lewis or Jones could
> never hope to win anything in 1,500 m run. You see that it is harder to be versatile
> distance-wise, than style-wise. That's why Michael Johnson is considered among the greatest of all
> runners as he mastered both 200 (sprint event) and 400 (borderline middle)
>
> I liken swimming IMs to a combination of running, walking, jumping, and hurdling in one race.
> Unfortunately (or fortunately ?), there is no such thing in track. Oh wait, the closest is
> Steeplechase. They run, hurdle, and jump in one race. Would you consider the best steeplechase
> runner as the greatest runner ever ?
>
>
> >Harold Pinter <
[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:<
[email protected]>...
>
> > Of course. Only an idiot like alexandria would try to equate the most popular events with the
> > most demanding. But alexandria has to pursue that stupid line of reasoning because to think
> > otherwise would destroy his belief in Ian Thorpe's superiority, particularly when Phelps has
> > just totally destroyed and displaced him.
>
> It is always futile to argue against someone who resorts to namecalling. Not to mention distorting
> facts and putting words into another's mouth.
>
> I hope you get it this time : Yes, I believe that Thorpe is still the superior freestyler, more
> superior than anybody else. I believe that Thorpe is the greatest male freestyler ever. I also
> believe that Thorpe is halfway to be considered the 'greatest male swimmer ever'. But, I don't
> believe that Thorpe is the most dominant male swimmer at the moment. That title goes to Phelps.
> However, I believe that Phelps is NOT the greatest male swimmer ever, not even halfway. Not until
> he wins multiple olympic golds and win a freestyle event.
>
> In December 1999 edition of Swimming World magazine, the top ten greatest male swimmers in the
> 20th century were : "Spitz just edged Weissmuller for the top men's spot. Third place went to
> American Matt Biondi, fourth to Australian Murray Rose and fifth to American Duke Kahanamoku.
> Australian Kieren Perkins, attempting to win an unprecedented third straight Olympic 1500-meter
> title, is sixth, American Don Schollander seventh, Russians Alex Popov and Vladimir Salnikov
> eighth and ninth, and American Adolph Kiefer tenth."
>
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but they were all mostly freestylers, and there is no IMers in the top
> ten (Tamas Darnyi came in 22nd).
>
> Mind you, all these in no way diminish Phelps achievements. He is the most dominating male swimmer
> right now and his breaking 5 individual WRs in one meet is still the most by any male swimmer I
> believe, so hats off to him, and he is on track to at least emulate Spitz' record in Athens next
> year, but with Olympics, you never know. As 'the best swimmer ever' ? He still has long way to
> claim that.
First of all thank you for addressing my points. I just don't want people to mix my commentary with
the statements of other posters if possible. Secondly, the Swimming world magazine has an evident
bias towards the past. A past in which the other strokes weren't often contested at both 100 and
200. Krisztina Egerszegi would be near the very top of any list of women I can guarantee you. What
about Tracy Caulkins? Both of them would be up there, probably along with Fraser, Evans, and perhaps
Meagher or Gould. Egerszegi's, Evans, and Gould's careers are distinctly enhanced by winning
peformances in the IM. Michael Gross is oddly absent from the top 10 in this list, which raises
questions about it's orientation to the past with performers such as Adolph Kiefer (strictly a
backstroker) who won one gold in the 100 back. The IM wasn't included until the 60's. In fact only a
few swimming events were on the programme prior to the 60's. Spitz's ranking is obviously enhanced
by his ability to dominate in butterfly at both distances. Unlike 1896-1964, if he had only
succeeded in his freestyle during the early 70's he would not be ranked the #1 swimmer, or top 20
for that matter. The others, albeit freestylers are largely there in recognition of longevity, which
Phelps has yet to demonstrate.
You can only compare track and swimming to a very limited extent. Fly, back, what have you, it's
still swimming. We should not equivocate the butterfly to steeple chase jumping or race walking.
It's not an apt comparison at all. In any stroke in swimming we use more than just legs for one
thing. Even though you don't do it intentionally you sometimes come across as making these other
disciplines seem gimmicky. In retrospect, the decathlon comparison is not a good comparison either.
There is no real apt comparison between track & field and the mulitiple disciplines of swimming.
Specifically because of the multiple demands placed upon both lower and upper body in each event.
Honestly, it is a shock to me that Darnyi isn't ranked much higher. You won't find many, if any
other such lists that rank him that low. Top 15 at minimum, IMO.