Michelin Pro Race Violet



On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 19:00:25 -0600, Jim Adney
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 13:25:58 -0500 Sheldon Brown
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Sheldon "Dunlop HPRR?" Brown

>
>I wonder how many people out there know what this refers to? If you
>do, prove it by naming the Schwinn tire which copied it.
>
>-
>-----------------------------------------------
> Jim Adney [email protected]
> Madison, WI 53711 USA
>-----------------------------------------------


Dear Jim,

But wouldn't that prove only that we know the name of the
Schwinn copy, not that we know what Dunlop HPRR refers to?

In any case, Sheldon himself explains HPRR under "Dunlop":

In 1888, Dr. J.B. Dunlop, a veternarian of Belfast, Ireland,
invented . . . The Dunlop tire company which he started
still exists, but stopped making bicycle tires in the
1960's. This caused a crisis among cyclists for a couple of
years, because Dunlop bicycle tires were incontestibly the
finest available. The Dunlop "HPRR" (High Pressure Road
Racing) tire was the high-performance "clincher"

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_d.html

(I purse my lips incontestably at the spelling and the lack
of terminal punctuation in the entry concerning Dr. Dunlop,
whose occupation could use improved orthography, too. I pay
Sheldon just as much as I pay Phil Holman and demand nothing
less than pointless perfection in every detail. Sheldon may
salvage his end-of-year bonus--worth its weight in gold--by
adding the details of the Schwinn copy to the entry.)

Carl Fogel
 
"Jay Beattie" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> So, it looks like PerformNashGo is selling the Michelin Pro Race
> for under $25 in violet. Any reports on whether one color is more
> slippery than another or conjecture on why the violet tires are
> priced so low? The literature indicates that they all have
> "silicum" tread compound, so I assume that the gray/black tires
> (which are so popular and not on sale) have the same tread
> compound as the colored tires and that all the tires should have
> similar traction regardless of color. Let me know if I am
> missing something here. -- Jay Beattie.
>
>


Don't order them from SuperGo - they sent me red Michelin MTB tires instead.
Twice.

Performance didn't have the same problem. They'll wear out quickly, but
they're not bad tires for the price.

Boris
 
"bfd" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Interesting. On my commuter, I'm currently running an Avocet Fasgrip
> 26x1.25 in front, Avocet Cross 26x1.25 in the rear. Seems to roll find
> with me. When the rear wears, I'll move my Avocet Fasgrip from the
> front to rear and put a new Fasgrip on the front.


I guess I'm wrong, the new Avocet cross tires look much better.
 
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> <snip>
> ...you can do as Continental has for years, use
> coarser cords (fewer TPI) of cheaper thread without it being visible.


It appears they don't do this as much anymore. I just got some new
Ultra2000s which used to have tan sidewalls. The new ones don't.

Boris
 
The purple(violet) tyres are discontinued & hence discounted. I bought a
stock!

Pete BNECC
"Jay Beattie" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> So, it looks like PerformNashGo is selling the Michelin Pro Race
> for under $25 in violet. Any reports on whether one color is more
> slippery than another or conjecture on why the violet tires are
> priced so low? The literature indicates that they all have
> "silicum" tread compound, so I assume that the gray/black tires
> (which are so popular and not on sale) have the same tread
> compound as the colored tires and that all the tires should have
> similar traction regardless of color. Let me know if I am
> missing something here. -- Jay Beattie.
>
>
 
[email protected] wrote:

> What color is raw silicum?
>
> I'm guessing black, but for all I know it could be white or
> brown or transparent.


Transparent, but piles of it look white, like broken glass. After all, it's
pretty much the same stuff.

Matt O.
 
[email protected] wrote:

> The difference arises from the additional rubber that coats the
> sidewall. That is not black dye but rather a thin coat of rubber.
> Although it gives better weather resistance, this has not been a
> problem with people who ride much, just as it was in the days of
> tubulars, that the "yellow" side wall tires emulated. As fashion has
> overtaken function in this business, we don't see much attention to
> rolling resistance and traction. Color is where it's at!


My tires are black inside and out. There's probably no extra rubber on the
sidewall -- the rubber in the rubberized fabric casing is simply dyed black.

10-15 years ago, several mountain bike tires were offered with or without extra
sidewall rubber (black). The tan ones were theoretically faster, but the black
ones resisted rock damage better. Still others had extra tan rubber on their
sidewalls.

Matt O.
 
[email protected] wrote:

> Well that's not for sure... in a negative sense. With (rubber
> covered) black sidewalls, you can do as Continental has for years, use
> coarser cords (fewer TPI) of cheaper thread without it being visible.
> The package cord sidewalls on Continental tires is, in my estimation,
> the source of the side wall failure reputation... looking carefully
> the UPS cord is visible. One of the wonders of the great tubulars of
> the past was that you could see the strong and fine 120 TPI silk.
> THose casings of 0.008" thread were far finer than the fire hoses we
> ride on today.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/6fkj5


Certainly not all tires are like those Continentals. I've been riding some
Vittorias which are thinner and more supple, and feel faster and smoother than
any I've ever used. And while many fellow riders seem to get cuts, etc., I
never seem to get any. These tires are advertised with very high thread counts,
280 or 340 TPI or something. They may be playing games with how they figure
this, but the result is a great tire, the best I've ever used.

Also, as others have mentioned, Conti tires seem to have changed. The older
ones had really fat cords like you describe. But I saw some newer ones at
Performance the other night. I turned one inside out to see/feel the cord
texture on the inside. They looked the same as everything else. Perhaps Conti
is no longer producing tires in Germany, but buying them from the same Asian
factories everyone else does. BTW, that Ultra 2000 on sale for $16-17 at
Performance looks like a good deal. I still don't trust them, but others swear
by them.

Matt O.
 
dianne_1234 wrote:

> On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 17:17:31 GMT, Mark Janeba
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> My specific question: Is it cheaper for manufacturers to make
>> sidewalls black?

>
> Maybe a wobbly molded tread edge is easier to hide with black
> sidewalls?


I'm sure.

I read in Velonews that Vittoria actually employs people to hand-paint any
wobbles with a fine tipped brush, to make the tread lines/edges perfectly
straight.

Matt O.
 
[email protected] wrote:

> Jay Beattie writes:
>
>> The Michelin web-site indicates that the entire range has silicum
>> binder/filler in the tread compound which leads me to believe that
>> even the gray/black tires are "colored," vis., a dye is used to
>> color the tire rather than carbon black. This should mean that the
>> entire range would have the same traction and wear characteristics
>> regardless of color. Shouldn't it?

>
> The black tires I've seen appear to be colored tires, not carbon black
> tires as you suspect. They have a different black than carbon makes.
> It seems reasonable that all tires of a specific line are made of the
> same material regardless of color.


Does anyone know which tires (besides Avocet) still use real carbon black?

FWIW, while silica tires may not be as good in theory, in practice the good ones
are probably as good as any ever made. My yellow Vittorias are, IMO, the best
tires I've ever used. Also, I once saw some slip out angle test results for a
bunch of tires, both silica and carbon. While a carbon one was the winner, the
runner up at one degree less was a silica. The rest varied so it seemed other
factors made a bigger difference than carbon vs. silica. That one degree
difference may be a good evidence of carbon's superiority, but most of us never
corner that hard anyway. Road conditions, a sensible safety margin, and a
desire for self-preservation are the limiting factors for me.

Matt O.
 
Boris Foelsch wrote:

>> <snip>
>> ...you can do as Continental has for years, use
>> coarser cords (fewer TPI) of cheaper thread without it being visible.

>
>It appears they don't do this as much anymore. I just got some new
>Ultra2000s which used to have tan sidewalls. The new ones don't.


The sidewalls still degrade precipitously.
They are incredibly vulnerable to side
cuts but if nobody looks at them wrong
they could conceivably last through the
life of the tread.

Robert
 
"Matt O'Toole" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> [email protected] wrote:
>


> Does anyone know which tires (besides Avocet) still use real carbon black?
>

Its my understanding that Michelin Carbon (aka Axial Carbon) use *real*
carbon black:

http://cycleus.webmichelin.com/tires/carbon.htm

> FWIW, while silica tires may not be as good in theory, in practice the
> good ones
> are probably as good as any ever made. My yellow Vittorias are, IMO, the
> best
> tires I've ever used. Also, I once saw some slip out angle test results
> for a
> bunch of tires, both silica and carbon. While a carbon one was the
> winner, the
> runner up at one degree less was a silica. The rest varied so it seemed
> other
> factors made a bigger difference than carbon vs. silica. That one degree
> difference may be a good evidence of carbon's superiority, but most of us
> never
> corner that hard anyway. Road conditions, a sensible safety margin, and a
> desire for self-preservation are the limiting factors for me.
>

I think the main disadvantage of silica tires is not so much slip out angle,
but its performance in wet conditions, where carbon black tires supposedly
do much better.
 
"Matt O'Toole" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> Does anyone know which tires (besides Avocet) still use real carbon
> black?


There was a column in VeloNews last year where Lenard Zinn recommended the
Michelin Carbon and Panaracer Stradius Extreme as carbon black tires with good
durability. Both are priced around $35.
 
On Sat, 1 Jan 2005 17:40:21 -0500, "Matt O'Toole"
<[email protected]> wrote:

[snip]

>Does anyone know which tires (besides Avocet) still use real carbon black?
>
>FWIW, while silica tires may not be as good in theory, in practice the good ones
>are probably as good as any ever made. My yellow Vittorias are, IMO, the best
>tires I've ever used. Also, I once saw some slip out angle test results for a
>bunch of tires, both silica and carbon. While a carbon one was the winner, the
>runner up at one degree less was a silica. The rest varied so it seemed other
>factors made a bigger difference than carbon vs. silica. That one degree
>difference may be a good evidence of carbon's superiority, but most of us never
>corner that hard anyway. Road conditions, a sensible safety margin, and a
>desire for self-preservation are the limiting factors for me.
>
>Matt O.


Dear Matt,

Now I'm worried.

Does your question imply that most bicycle tires are no
longer using God-fearing carbon black? Is this yet another
trend that everyone but me knows about?

Clinging to my buggywhip,

Carl Fogel
 
On Sat, 1 Jan 2005 17:28:18 -0500, "Matt O'Toole"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>dianne_1234 wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 17:17:31 GMT, Mark Janeba
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> My specific question: Is it cheaper for manufacturers to make
>>> sidewalls black?

>>
>> Maybe a wobbly molded tread edge is easier to hide with black
>> sidewalls?

>
>I'm sure.
>
>I read in Velonews that Vittoria actually employs people to hand-paint any
>wobbles with a fine tipped brush, to make the tread lines/edges perfectly
>straight.
>
>Matt O.


Dear Matt,

Is that the new Vittoria Potemkin?

Carl Fogel
 
Ken wrote:

> "Matt O'Toole" <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:


>> Does anyone know which tires (besides Avocet) still use real carbon
>> black?

>
> There was a column in VeloNews last year where Lenard Zinn
> recommended the Michelin Carbon and Panaracer Stradius Extreme as
> carbon black tires with good durability. Both are priced around $35.


I'm not sure the Michelin actually has carbon black in the tread, but rather
some carbon fiber in the casing. Also, Michelins are very popular around here,
and people who use the Carbons sometimes complain they're slippery in wet and/or
cold weather.

Matt O.
 
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 1 Jan 2005 17:40:21 -0500, "Matt O'Toole"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> >Does anyone know which tires (besides Avocet) still use real carbon black?
> >
> >FWIW, while silica tires may not be as good in theory, in practice the good

ones
> >are probably as good as any ever made. My yellow Vittorias are, IMO, the

best
> >tires I've ever used. Also, I once saw some slip out angle test results for

a
> >bunch of tires, both silica and carbon. While a carbon one was the winner,

the
> >runner up at one degree less was a silica. The rest varied so it seemed

other
> >factors made a bigger difference than carbon vs. silica. That one degree
> >difference may be a good evidence of carbon's superiority, but most of us

never
> >corner that hard anyway. Road conditions, a sensible safety margin, and a
> >desire for self-preservation are the limiting factors for me.
> >
> >Matt O.

>
> Dear Matt,
>
> Now I'm worried.
>
> Does your question imply that most bicycle tires are no
> longer using God-fearing carbon black? Is this yet another
> trend that everyone but me knows about?
>
> Clinging to my buggywhip,
>
> Carl Fogel
 
[email protected] wrote:

> Dear Matt,
>
> Now I'm worried.
>
> Does your question imply that most bicycle tires are no
> longer using God-fearing carbon black? Is this yet another
> trend that everyone but me knows about?
>
> Clinging to my buggywhip,


Not to worry, Carl. We have an excellent buggywhip dealer right here on
rec.bicycles.tech:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/

Matt O.
 
On Sat, 01 Jan 2005 17:22:07 -0500, Matt O'Toole wrote:

>> The package cord sidewalls on Continental tires is, in my estimation,
>> the source of the side wall failure reputation... looking carefully
>> the UPS cord is visible. One of the wonders of the great tubulars of
>> the past was that you could see the strong and fine 120 TPI silk.


> Certainly not all tires are like those Continentals. I've been riding some
> Vittorias which are thinner and more supple, and feel faster and smoother than
> any I've ever used. And while many fellow riders seem to get cuts, etc., I
> never seem to get any. These tires are advertised with very high thread counts,
> 280 or 340 TPI or something. They may be playing games with how they figure
> this, but the result is a great tire, the best I've ever used.


In the old days, tpi referred to threads per inch per layer. Continental
has done a great disservice with their claims of high tpi based on their
multiple layers of low tpi casing.

In my experience, the lower tpi casings are the ones that fail more
easily, and that includes Continentals.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | You will say Christ saith this and the apostles say this; but
_`\(,_ | what canst thou say? -- George Fox.
(_)/ (_) |
 
Matt O'Toole <[email protected]> wrote:

> Perhaps Conti
> is no longer producing tires in Germany, but buying them from the same
> Asian factories everyone else does.


I don't know about all models, but the ones I've bought lately were
certainly "Made in Germany". These include the Grand Prix 4-Season (an
excellent clincher tyre) and the Sprinter tubulars.

-as