Mike Vandeman Poll



Mike Vandeman wrote:

> On 3 Mar 2004 10:06:17 -0800, [email protected] (Jonesy) wrote:
>
> .Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>... .> On 2 Mar 2004 09:48:06 -0800,
> [email protected] (Jonesy) wrote: .> .> .We all know that hikers cause more trail damage
> than MTBers, because .> .of the sheer volume of hikers vs. MTBers. .> .> How many hikers hike
> every week?

I??

> . .Over ten times more than MTB riders ride every week. . .> And as far as a mountain biker (over
> 50 miles .> in a day -- IMPOSSIBLE for a hiker)? . .MTBers rarely get more than ten miles out,
> for a total of twenty .ridden miles. . .A rough guess would be that less than 5% of MTBers do
> that much.
>
> Which is about 4 times as far as a typical hiker travels.
>
> ===
> I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to
> help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)
>
> http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

My son was a mountain biker, but abandoned it whan he saw the damage it was doing.

jimbat
 
Jim Roberts wrote:
> That might be interesting so long as I wasn't separated from my wife for too long. My oyster work
> takes a 2-hr drive each way, and my dog enjoys the whole thing.
>
> I like my Subaru Forester, but we never take it off road. The only weird road I'd like to go on
> would ruin it.

Anyone ever say you sound like Forrest Gump?

Bill "life is like an oyster...smelly and gooey" S.
 
Jim Roberts wrote:
>
>
>
>
> My son was a mountain biker, but abandoned it whan he saw the damage it was doing.
>

The only damage done is by incompetent riders. If your son was an incompetent mountain biker then
it's probably a good thing he abandoned it.

Greg
 
S o r n i wrote:

> Jim Roberts wrote:
>
>>That might be interesting so long as I wasn't separated from my wife for too long. My oyster work
>>takes a 2-hr drive each way, and my dog enjoys the whole thing.
>>
>>I like my Subaru Forester, but we never take it off road. The only weird road I'd like to go on
>>would ruin it.
>
>
> Anyone ever say you sound like Forrest Gump?
>
> Bill "life is like an oyster...smelly and gooey" S.
>
>
My road is the Terwilliger Road. It usually makes people's eyes stand out on stalks...But once you
get down after all the damage to the undercarriage you have to drive up narrow roads closed in with
cat's claw. With my old hybrid VW I didn't mind the damage, but my wife would not tolerate it on our
new Forester. So I can't get back to my Garden of Eden anymore. Someday maybe. I took my wife there
once, and of course previous girl friends, and she liked it very much. We had to find a new route in
though, since the cows were not cutting such a wide swath through the cat's claw up the creek.

Oysters are not smelly and gooey. They at about 10-15 mm babes growing on other shells when we dump
them on their bars. Of course there is a nursery beforehand and then a period of incubation in the
Chesapeake estuary of about 6 weeks. It's all great fun. We had a female student who played rugby
every weekend, and we used to go over her bruised legs *very* carefully. "Here is where Sally spiked
me", etc. Kissing the bruises was allowed only in the strictest privacy.

jimbat
 
G.T. wrote:

> Jim Roberts wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> My son was a mountain biker, but abandoned it whan he saw the damage it was doing.
>>
>
> The only damage done is by incompetent riders. If your son was an incompetent mountain biker then
> it's probably a good thing he abandoned it.
>
> Greg
>
He was not incompetent. He won a number of races, served as a park conservator, and is stil an ace
at soccer at 35 years old. No, he is far more aware than you are.

jimbat
 
Jim Roberts wrote:
> S o r n i wrote:
>
>> Jim Roberts wrote:
>>
>>> That might be interesting so long as I wasn't separated from my wife for too long. My oyster
>>> work takes a 2-hr drive each way, and my dog enjoys the whole thing.
>>>
>>> I like my Subaru Forester, but we never take it off road. The only weird road I'd like to go on
>>> would ruin it.
>>
>>
>> Anyone ever say you sound like Forrest Gump?
>>
>> Bill "life is like an oyster...smelly and gooey" S.
>>
>>
> My road is the Terwilliger Road. It usually makes people's eyes stand out on stalks...But once you
> get down after all the damage to the undercarriage you have to drive up narrow roads closed in
> with cat's claw. With my old hybrid VW I didn't mind the damage, but my wife would not tolerate it
> on our new Forester. So I can't get back to my Garden of Eden anymore. Someday maybe. I took my
> wife there once, and of course previous girl friends, and she liked it very much. We had to find a
> new route in though, since the cows were not cutting such a wide swath through the cat's claw up
> the creek.
>
> Oysters are not smelly and gooey. They at about 10-15 mm babes growing on other shells when we
> dump them on their bars. Of course there is a nursery beforehand and then a period of incubation
> in the Chesapeake estuary of about 6 weeks. It's all great fun. We had a female student who played
> rugby every weekend, and we used to go over her bruised legs *very* carefully. "Here is where
> Sally spiked me", etc. Kissing the bruises was allowed only in the strictest privacy.

{fingermovingupanddownbetweenlipsmakingthat"thispersonisnuts"sound.wav}
 
Jim Roberts <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Mike Vandeman wrote:
>
> > On 3 Mar 2004 10:06:17 -0800, [email protected] (Jonesy) wrote:
> >
> > .Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:<[email protected]>... .> On 2 Mar 2004 09:48:06 -0800,
> > [email protected] (Jonesy) wrote: .> .> .We all know that hikers cause more trail damage
> > than MTBers, because .> .of the sheer volume of hikers vs. MTBers. .> .> How many hikers hike
> > every week?
>
> I??
>
> > . .Over ten times more than MTB riders ride every week. . .> And as far as a mountain biker
> > (over 50 miles .> in a day -- IMPOSSIBLE for a hiker)? . .MTBers rarely get more than ten miles
> > out, for a total of twenty .ridden miles. . .A rough guess would be that less than 5% of MTBers
> > do that much.
> >
> > Which is about 4 times as far as a typical hiker travels.
> >
> > ===
> > I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to
> > help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)
> >
> > http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
>
> My son was a mountain biker, but abandoned it whan he saw the damage it was doing.

It's clear now. You're Mikes dad.
 
On Thu, 04 Mar 2004 05:43:21 GMT, Mike Vandeman <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On 3 Mar 2004 10:06:17 -0800, [email protected] (Jonesy) wrote:
>
>.MTBers rarely get more than ten miles out, for a total of twenty .ridden miles. . .A rough guess
>would be that less than 5% of MTBers do that much.
>
>Which is about 4 times as far as a typical hiker travels.
>
You may not be a typical hiker, if that is what you think is typical.

Look in any outdoors club's trip listings, and you will see that that is in the range of walks,
while hikes range from 5 miles for beginners, 10-12 miles for intermediates, and 20 for advanced
hikers. At least that is typical in New England terrain.

Our group's most rugged hike is a one day, 23 mile traverse of the Presidential range in NH, over
about a dozen 4k plus peaks. But most are at least 8-10 miles except for the really novice oriented.

Happy trails, Gary (net.yogi.bear)
------------------------------------------------
at the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence

Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom
 
On Thu, 04 Mar 2004 05:43:21 GMT, Mike Vandeman <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On 3 Mar 2004 10:06:17 -0800, [email protected] (Jonesy) wrote:
>
>.MTBers rarely get more than ten miles out, for a total of twenty .ridden miles. . .A rough guess
>would be that less than 5% of MTBers do that much.
>
>Which is about 4 times as far as a typical hiker travels.
>
You may not be a typical hiker, if that is what you think is typical.

Look in any outdoors club's trip listings, and you will see that that is in the range of walks,
while hikes range from 5 miles for beginners, 10-12 miles for intermediates, and 20 for advanced
hikers. At least that is typical in New England terrain.

Our group's most rugged hike is a one day, 23 mile traverse of the Presidential range in NH, over
about a dozen 4k plus peaks. But most are at least 8-10 miles except for the really novice oriented.

Happy trails, Gary (net.yogi.bear)
------------------------------------------------
at the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence

Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom
 
"Jeff Strickland" wrote:
> If there is ANYBODY that thinks Mike is a remotely reasonable and balanced advocate for the
> environment, speak up now.

No, and he's not even interesting in the way that kooks are usually interesting. Archimedes
Plutonium, now *that* was a kook. MV is just an annoying source of clutter.

Jon
 
Jim Roberts <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> G.T. wrote:
>
> > Jim Roberts wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> My son was a mountain biker, but abandoned it whan he saw the damage it was doing.
> >>

Pure fantasy.
 
Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> On 3 Mar 2004 10:06:17 -0800, [email protected] (Jonesy) wrote:
>
> .Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>... .> .> .> And as far as a mountain biker
> (over 50 miles .> in a day -- IMPOSSIBLE for a hiker)? . .MTBers rarely get more than ten miles
> out, for a total of twenty .ridden miles. . .A rough guess would be that less than 5% of MTBers
> do that much.
>
> Which is about 4 times as far as a typical hiker travels.

Let's break it down:

Very few MTBers ride 50 miles in a day (on dirt/trails). I can think of ONE that MAY have done that
a few times. Let's call that, to be very generous, 0.1% of the MTB population. Such a small
percentage as to be negligible. This is assuming that the "50-mile MTBer" is not just a plain
fabrication.

(Query to a.m-b.: has anyone ever ridden 50 miles in a day - on trails?)

The suggestion is that the "typical" hiker hikes about 5 miles. First logical failure - comparing
the extraordinary MTBer with the ordinary hiker.

Second logic failure - comparing the 95th percentile mountain biker with the "typical hiker," that
is, those MTBers that might travel 20 round-trip miles.

The "typical" mountain biker around these parts might go out for a 5-10 mile round trip ride. The
ones that I go out with are in that group. Beginners and hobbyists ride for much less than that
(from my experience) and mostly on trails shared with hikers. Lesson: the vast majority of MTBers
around here go no further "out" than the hikers, and ride about as far as the "typical" hiker walks.

While some MTBers that hang out in the newsgroups might ride 10-20 miles 3-4 times/week, they are a
very small percentage of the total population of folks who actually ride on the trails. AFAIK, I am
the only local who actually hangs out in USENET. Oddly, I ride a lot more than those other guys.

The basis for science is observation. "Observing" USENET denizens for accurate, representative trail
useage info is not science. From direct observation of the mountain biker/hiker useage in this area,
the "damage" being done by hikers is very roughly ten times what is done by MTBers.
--
Jonesy
 
On 4 Mar 2004 08:29:15 -0800, [email protected] (Jonesy) wrote:

>Let's break it down:
>
>Very few MTBers ride 50 miles in a day (on dirt/trails). I can think of ONE that MAY have done that
>a few times. Let's call that, to be very generous, 0.1% of the MTB population. Such a small
>percentage as to be negligible. This is assuming that the "50-mile MTBer" is not just a plain
>fabrication.
>
>(Query to a.m-b.: has anyone ever ridden 50 miles in a day - on trails?)
>
There are only a small percentage of people in general who are willing/capable of riding 50 miles on
a road on any type of bicycle. Amongst those who call themselves "cyclists" it is much higher, but
only a few of those who own bicycles _are_ cyclists.

>The suggestion is that the "typical" hiker hikes about 5 miles. First logical failure - comparing
>the extraordinary MTBer with the ordinary hiker.
>
See my earlier post, many hikers go further than this.

>Second logic failure - comparing the 95th percentile mountain biker with the "typical hiker," that
>is, those MTBers that might travel 20 round-trip miles.
>
Shading the numbers one way for one group, and the other way for the second group, is hardly
objective scientific analysis. But, consider the source.

>The basis for science is observation. "Observing" USENET denizens for accurate, representative
>trail useage info is not science. From direct observation of the mountain biker/hiker useage in
>this area, the "damage" being done by hikers is very roughly ten times what is done by MTBers.

One person's observations do not make science, especially when EVERYTHING is viewed through a
partisan lens.

GOOD science, by definition, is repeatable by a completely independent, perhaps skeptical, scientist
in the same field.

Mikey is trying to cloth his opinions as science, the same process where we are to assume that a PhD
in one discipline denotes knowledge in a completely different field without question.

Happy trails, Gary (net.yogi.bear)
------------------------------------------------
at the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence

Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom
 
>.> .> .We all know that hikers cause more trail damage than MTBers, because .> .of the sheer volume
>of hikers vs. MTBers. .> .> How many hikers hike every week? . .Over ten times more than MTB riders
>ride every week. . .> And as far as a mountain biker (over 50 miles .> in a day -- IMPOSSIBLE for a
>hiker)? . .MTBers rarely get more than ten miles out, for a total of twenty .ridden miles. . .A
>rough guess would be that less than 5% of MTBers do that much.
>
>Which is about 4 times as far as a typical hiker travels.
>
>===
>I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to
>help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)
>
>http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

What a stupid arguement. Yes hikers wear out trails, yes, mountain bikers wear out trails. Here's a
thought trails were made (the trails we're talking about) for people to use, when they use them they
will causes some wear.

It doesn't matter who wears them out. Not only that but bikers and hikers wear trails out in
different ways and places. Hiker short cuts are the worst I've seen. But when you ride on
muddy trails that creates a different type of wear. Also steep downhill corners are a wear
point for bikes.

See Mike that is a balanced arguement, not some rantings of a self proclaimed conservasionist who
doesn't have the ability to see out of his tunnel and uses a lot of absolute terms like "all
mountain bikers are liars" and "pure habitat". Your inability to wrap your myopic mind around an
issue actually makes you an enemy to your own cause since you incite people to do things just so
they can bug you.

Oh jesus, am I stupid, trying to use logic on an idiot.
 
gazzer wrote:

> Jim Roberts <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
>
>>G.T. wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Jim Roberts wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>My son was a mountain biker, but abandoned it whan he saw the damage it was doing.
>>>>
>
>
> Pure fantasy.

He did a LOT of biking, won some races, is a very bright person, and knew what he saw. I've never
known him to have any fantasies, except those imposed on him by his lunatic mother.

jimbat
 
This is truly a popular mam!!

Jon Danniken wrote:
> "Jeff Strickland" wrote:
>
>>If there is ANYBODY that thinks Mike is a remotely reasonable and balanced advocate for the
>>environment, speak up now.
>
>
> No, and he's not even interesting in the way that kooks are usually interesting. Archimedes
> Plutonium, now *that* was a kook. MV is just an annoying source of clutter.
>
> Jon
 
In article <[email protected]>,
Jonesy <[email protected]> wrote:

>Very few MTBers ride 50 miles in a day (on dirt/trails). I can think of ONE that MAY have done that
>a few times. Let's call that, to be very generous, 0.1% of the MTB population. Such a small
>percentage as to be negligible. This is assuming that the "50-mile MTBer" is not just a plain
>fabrication.

50 dirt miles is NOT that much.... depending on conditions of the trail... 50 dirt miles...100 road
miles... sunday morning rides. Now, 100 dirt miles makes for an interesting full day.

--

"It's a sad day for american capitalism when a man can't fly a midget on a kite over
Central Park."
J. Moran
 
On Fri, 05 Mar 2004 12:32:36 GMT, [email protected]
(Pete Hickey) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, Jonesy
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Very few MTBers ride 50 miles in a day (on dirt/trails). I can think of ONE that MAY have done
>>that a few times. Let's call that, to be very generous, 0.1% of the MTB population. Such a small
>>percentage as to be negligible. This is assuming that the "50-mile MTBer" is not just a plain
>>fabrication.
>
>50 dirt miles is NOT that much.... depending on conditions of the trail... 50 dirt miles...100 road
>miles... sunday morning rides. Now, 100 dirt miles makes for an interesting full day.

Mileage for the serious rider is going to be far above average, when you figure in all of the
occasional and casual riders.

I know this is so for road riding, I would expect similar for off-road.

Happy trails, Gary (net.yogi.bear)
------------------------------------------------
at the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence

Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom
 
On Thu, 04 Mar 2004 06:12:58 GMT, Jim Roberts <[email protected]> wrote:

. . .Mike Vandeman wrote: . .> On 3 Mar 2004 10:06:17 -0800, [email protected] (Jonesy) wrote:
.> .> .Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>... .> .> On 2 Mar 2004 09:48:06 -0800,
[email protected] (Jonesy) wrote: .> .> .> .> .We all know that hikers cause more trail damage
than MTBers, because .> .> .of the sheer volume of hikers vs. MTBers. .> .> .> .> How many hikers
hike every week? . .I?? . .> . .> .Over ten times more than MTB riders ride every week. .> . .> .>
And as far as a mountain biker (over 50 miles .> .> in a day -- IMPOSSIBLE for a hiker)? .> . .>
.MTBers rarely get more than ten miles out, for a total of twenty .> .ridden miles. .> . .> .A rough
guess would be that less than 5% of MTBers do that much. .> .> Which is about 4 times as far as a
typical hiker travels. .> .> === .> I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
.> humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8 .> years fighting auto dependence
and road construction.) .> .> http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande . .My son was a mountain biker, but
abandoned it whan he saw the damage it .was doing.

He's one in a million! I have never heard of amy other mountain biker abandoning their sport, no
matter how much damage it does! Can you send him my web address? I would like to meet someone as
honest as that!

.jimbat

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to
help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
On Thu, 04 Mar 2004 13:47:28 GMT, Gary S. <Idontwantspam@net> wrote:

.On Thu, 04 Mar 2004 05:43:21 GMT, Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> .wrote: . .>On 3 Mar 2004
10:06:17 -0800, [email protected] (Jonesy) wrote: .> .>.MTBers rarely get more than ten miles
out, for a total of twenty .>.ridden miles. .>. .>.A rough guess would be that less than 5% of
MTBers do that much. .> .>Which is about 4 times as far as a typical hiker travels. .> .You may not
be a typical hiker, if that is what you think is typical. . .Look in any outdoors club's trip
listings, and you will see that that .is in the range of walks, while hikes range from 5 miles for
.beginners, 10-12 miles for intermediates, and 20 for advanced hikers. .At least that is typical in
New England terrain. . .Our group's most rugged hike is a one day, 23 mile traverse of the
.Presidential range in NH, over about a dozen 4k plus peaks. But most .are at least 8-10 miles
except for the really novice oriented.

I wasn't talking about wimps, but real mountain bikers. They advertize 1-day rides of 50-60 miles.
There are hikers who can walk 20 miles in a day, but they are extremely rare, and don't have all
their marbles. Marathon death marches like that are no fun.
===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to
help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande