Minor hit from vehicle, anyone know how true/round is a head-tube supposed to be?

[Pete Grey]

I had someone turn in front of me last week. Fortunately they admitted full
fault and I'm working w/their insurance. I seem to be fine in terms of
personal injuries.

Some background:
I built my dream frame, a Merlin Extralight, after saving and picking up
parts over about a year, finishing last summer.
The fork is a Real Designs Signature HP, full carbon steerer. Chris King
headset, but I'm not sure it matters.

The impact at maybe 10mph or so twisted the bars pretty good, even thou' I
had the stem at torque specs according to both Real Designs and Ritchey.
I fixed this and trued both my wheels (strangely enough the back wheel got a
much worse ding, even thou' it never contacted the van). Torqued to specs
again, everything working ok.
Ordered a new fork just to be safe, insurance approved that no problem.
Five days later, the stem really loosened itself up again, which never
happened in the past year of riding since I initially built it up.

Got out my digital caliper. The top of the head-tube is nearly perfectly
round, checking on about 3 axises. The front-back an side-side are within
about .03-.04mm.
On the bottom of the head-tube, they differ about about .30-.35, which is
significantly more.

Here's the big punchline. I talked to Merlin and they weren't able to
provide me with specs for tolerances here. They said I could leave a msg.
with the design department (which I did, no calls so far). They also said I
could strip the frame and send it to them, and in a few weeks they'd give me
results.
I called our local Ti frame builder and they weren't too enthused about
doing an eval on the situation. They basically suggested strip and send the
frame as well.
I think the insurance agent will pay for a frame, provided it's actually
tweaked. I don't want to have them pay if it's not, by any means, but I
also don't want a frame where the headset won't stay in adjustment more than
a few days.
Does anyone who's built frames or worked in similar have any idea what the
tolerances should be??

Thanks a ton,

-pete

 

[Nate Knutson]

On Aug 8, 5:43 pm, "Pete Grey" <[email protected]> wrote:
> I had someone turn in front of me last week. Fortunately they admitted full
> fault and I'm working w/their insurance. I seem to be fine in terms of
> personal injuries.
>
> Some background:
> I built my dream frame, a Merlin Extralight, after saving and picking up
> parts over about a year, finishing last summer.
> The fork is a Real Designs Signature HP, full carbon steerer. Chris King
> headset, but I'm not sure it matters.
>
> The impact at maybe 10mph or so twisted the bars pretty good, even thou' I
> had the stem at torque specs according to both Real Designs and Ritchey.
> I fixed this and trued both my wheels (strangely enough the back wheel got a
> much worse ding, even thou' it never contacted the van). Torqued to specs
> again, everything working ok.
> Ordered a new fork just to be safe, insurance approved that no problem.
> Five days later, the stem really loosened itself up again, which never
> happened in the past year of riding since I initially built it up.
>
> Got out my digital caliper. The top of the head-tube is nearly perfectly
> round, checking on about 3 axises. The front-back an side-side are within
> about .03-.04mm.
> On the bottom of the head-tube, they differ about about .30-.35, which is
> significantly more.

Are you measuring the outside diameter of the headtube here? If you
are, that's not the way to do this, you need to check the actual
inside diameter of the headtube. If a serious shop hasn't seen the
bike yet, I'd recommend you bring it to one.

Also, your wheels were damaged. Just because the damage could be
"trued out" doesn't change the fact. To do so, you had to introduce a
tension imbalance, which will hamper the functionality and lifespan of
the wheels.

 

[[email protected]]

On Aug 8, 7:43 pm, "Pete Grey" <[email protected]> wrote:
> I had someone turn in front of me last week. Fortunately they admitted full
> fault and I'm working w/their insurance. I seem to be fine in terms of
> personal injuries.

Start over. Get a lawyer to "work with their insurance". Object: you
get a nice new bike, or some very large percentage of one. They get to
keep the old ruined one, with the tweaked wheels, and all the other
scratched and twisted parts, which they will sell to some bargain
hunter as salvage, having released themselves from further liability.
And you won't have the risk of something failing at a bad moment. --D-
y

 

[Chalo]

On Aug 8, 7:43 pm, "Pete Grey" <[email protected]> wrote:
> I had someone turn in front of me last week. Fortunately they admitted full
> fault and I'm working w/their insurance. I seem to be fine in terms of
> personal injuries.
....
> Got out my digital caliper. The top of the head-tube is nearly perfectly
> round, checking on about 3 axises. The front-back an side-side are within
> about .03-.04mm.
> On the bottom of the head-tube, they differ about about .30-.35, which is
> significantly more.
>
> Here's the big punchline. I talked to Merlin and they weren't able to
> provide me with specs for tolerances here. They said I could leave a msg.
> with the design department (which I did, no calls so far). They also said I
> could strip the frame and send it to them, and in a few weeks they'd give me
> results.

My thinking is that the driver's insurance company owes you a new
frame and wheels in addition to the fork they already got you.

If you insist on rehabilitating this frame-- not a good idea to my way
of thinking, since it is designed with minimal safety margin-- by all
means send it back to Merlin and have them check out not only the head
tube bores, but also the head angle and other basic geometric
measurements. An unpainted frame like that can be subtly bent without
the telltale paint cracks or crazed clearcoat that announce such
damage on a steel frame.

Chalo

 

[* * Chas]

"Pete Grey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I had someone turn in front of me last week. Fortunately they admitted
full
> fault and I'm working w/their insurance. I seem to be fine in terms of
> personal injuries.
>
> Some background:
> I built my dream frame, a Merlin Extralight, after saving and picking up
> parts over about a year, finishing last summer.
> The fork is a Real Designs Signature HP, full carbon steerer. Chris
King
> headset, but I'm not sure it matters.
>
> The impact at maybe 10mph or so twisted the bars pretty good, even thou'
I
> had the stem at torque specs according to both Real Designs and Ritchey.
> I fixed this and trued both my wheels (strangely enough the back wheel
got a
> much worse ding, even thou' it never contacted the van). Torqued to
specs
> again, everything working ok.
> Ordered a new fork just to be safe, insurance approved that no problem.
> Five days later, the stem really loosened itself up again, which never
> happened in the past year of riding since I initially built it up.
>
> Got out my digital caliper. The top of the head-tube is nearly
perfectly
> round, checking on about 3 axises. The front-back an side-side are
within
> about .03-.04mm.
> On the bottom of the head-tube, they differ about about .30-.35, which
is
> significantly more.
>
> Here's the big punchline. I talked to Merlin and they weren't able to
> provide me with specs for tolerances here. They said I could leave a
msg.
> with the design department (which I did, no calls so far). They also
said I
> could strip the frame and send it to them, and in a few weeks they'd
give me
> results.
> I called our local Ti frame builder and they weren't too enthused about
> doing an eval on the situation. They basically suggested strip and send
the
> frame as well.
> I think the insurance agent will pay for a frame, provided it's actually
> tweaked. I don't want to have them pay if it's not, by any means, but I
> also don't want a frame where the headset won't stay in adjustment more
than
> a few days.
> Does anyone who's built frames or worked in similar have any idea what
the
> tolerances should be??
>
> Thanks a ton,
>
> -pete
>

First off, don't sign anything with the insurance company until you are
sure that YOU have no physical injuries - screw the bike. In most cases
you have 12 months to make a claim (check it out 1st).

Don't let the adjuster pressure you into signing a release. It sounds like
you have the insurance company by the short ones so there's no need to
rush things.

Back and neck problems can take several months to start causing pain or
discomfort, knees and hips too. I was hit in 1999 and had some minor back
and neck problems. Within a year I was partially disabled and ended up
getting a total hip replacement in 2003 due to my back injury. The "minor"
accident cost me well over $50,000 plus partial loss of income for 4
years.

The person who ran into me was uninsured and my own automobile insurance
only covered me for 3 years from the date of the accident. Many auto
insurance policies cover you while cycling too.

As far as worrying about spending the insurance company's money - get
real! Would they look after your interests? That's what insurance is for.

You can probably get a whole new bike out of this. Once high tech
materials like titanium have been over stressed there is no predicting
when they are going to fail. If the headset doesn't stay adjusted, you
have problems. The stem and both wheels where damaged, what about other
components like the bars, seat and seatpost?

Stop worrying about insurance companies - their only concern about you is
whether you are going to sue them! $5000 is nothing for an insurance
company. (I'm currently suing 2 insurance companies over a different
matter that could have been settled 4 years ago for $7,500. They've spent
over $100k stretching the issue out!)

Chas.