Mission accomplished +5



D

Donald Munro

Guest
John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> Well, it looks like the rate of death is tapering off, which is evidence
> the surge is working. We should respect the judgement of the commanders on
> the ground. The next sixth months will be critical.


Please stop being ironic, it messes up the bots neural network.
 
Q

Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com

Guest
On May 1, 4:18 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On Thu, 1 May 2008 00:11:16 -0700 (PDT), Robert Chung
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >http://anonymous.coward.free.fr/temp/1may08.png

>
> Well, it looks like the rate of death is tapering off, which is
> evidence the surge is working. We should respect the judgement of the
> commanders on the ground.  The next sixth months will be critical.


If the potential commanders on the ground had been listened to(if we
are going in, go big), this mess would have been over with 5 years ago.
 
K

Kurgan Gringioni

Guest
On May 1, 7:50 am, "Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com"
<[email protected]> wrote:
> On May 1, 4:18 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 1 May 2008 00:11:16 -0700 (PDT), Robert Chung

>
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >http://anonymous.coward.free.fr/temp/1may08.png

>
> > Well, it looks like the rate of death is tapering off, which is
> > evidence the surge is working. We should respect the judgement of the
> > commanders on the ground.  The next sixth months will be critical.

>
> If the potential commanders on the ground had been listened to(if we
> are going in, go big), this mess would have been over with 5 years ago.





Dumbass -


Not if they were going to de-Baathify the country. Sending in more
troops would not have solved the long term problem of the power vacuum
created by removing the government.

The only way to get it over w/ fast would've been to depose Saddam,
leave the power structure in place and appoint a more transparent head
of state.


thanks,

K. Gringioni.
 
P

Paul G.

Guest
On May 1, 3:18 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On Thu, 1 May 2008 00:11:16 -0700 (PDT), Robert Chung
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >http://anonymous.coward.free.fr/temp/1may08.png

>
> Well, it looks like the rate of death is tapering off, which is
> evidence the surge is working. We should respect the judgement of the
> commanders on the ground. The next sixth months will be critical.


US Troops killed in action in 2008:
Feb 29
Mar 39
Apr 51

I don't think that meets the definition of "tapering off".
Source: http://icasualties.org/oif/
-Paul
 
P

Paul G.

Guest
On May 1, 7:50 am, "Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com"
<[email protected]> wrote:
> On May 1, 4:18 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 1 May 2008 00:11:16 -0700 (PDT), Robert Chung

>
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >http://anonymous.coward.free.fr/temp/1may08.png

>
> > Well, it looks like the rate of death is tapering off, which is
> > evidence the surge is working. We should respect the judgement of the
> > commanders on the ground. The next sixth months will be critical.

>
> If the potential commanders on the ground had been listened to(if we
> are going in, go big), this mess would have been over with 5 years ago.


The best troops in the world can't overcome incompetent civilian
leadership- just ask the Germans and Japanese. If the voters had given
our troops the leadership they deserve we wouldn't have had this mess
at all; bin Laden would be dead, Al-Qaeda wiped out, and the Taliban
crushed by overwhelming force. Instead we have this gigantic mess
because it was a vast undertaking and our glorious leader does
everything half-vast.

Muslims believe that everything happens because "it's Allah's will",
so had we wiped out the people responsible for the 9/11 attacks the
Muslims would have taken that as a punishment from God. Instead, they
got the same sign from God they got when they defeated the Soviets in
Afghanistan- Muslims can take on a superpower and win. Every time bin
Laden sends out a message it must be because God is keeping him safe,
ergo God is on bin Laden's side. This is a calamity that will cost us
for generations.
-Paul
 
S

Scott

Guest
On May 1, 8:50 am, "Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com"
<[email protected]> wrote:
> On May 1, 4:18 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 1 May 2008 00:11:16 -0700 (PDT), Robert Chung

>
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >http://anonymous.coward.free.fr/temp/1may08.png

>
> > Well, it looks like the rate of death is tapering off, which is
> > evidence the surge is working. We should respect the judgement of the
> > commanders on the ground.  The next sixth months will be critical.

>
> If the potential commanders on the ground had been listened to(if we
> are going in, go big), this mess would have been over with 5 years ago.


And your expertise in strategic and/or operational war-planning is
based on what experience?
 
T

Tom Kunich

Guest
"Scott" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]m...
On May 1, 8:50 am, "Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com"
<[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > If the potential commanders on the ground had been listened to(if we
> > are going in, go big), this mess would have been over with 5 years ago.

>
> And your expertise in strategic and/or operational war-planning is
> based on what experience?


He was an officer. What about you?
 
B

Bret

Guest
On May 1, 2:22 pm, "Tom Kunich" <[email protected] com> wrote:
> "Scott" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]m...
> On May 1, 8:50 am, "Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com"
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > If the potential commanders on the ground had been listened to(if we
> > > are going in, go big), this mess would have been over with 5 years ago..

>
> > And your expertise in strategic and/or operational war-planning is
> > based on what experience?

>
> He was an officer. What about you?


Scott was an army officer. Peter was a pilot.

Bret
 
K

Kurgan Gringioni

Guest
On May 1, 10:38 am, "Paul G." <[email protected]> wrote:
> On May 1, 8:19 am, Kurgan Gringioni <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 1, 7:50 am, "Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com"

>
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > On May 1, 4:18 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <[email protected]>
> > > wrote:

>
> > > > On Thu, 1 May 2008 00:11:16 -0700 (PDT), Robert Chung

>
> > > > <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > > >http://anonymous.coward.free.fr/temp/1may08.png

>
> > > > Well, it looks like the rate of death is tapering off, which is
> > > > evidence the surge is working. We should respect the judgement of the
> > > > commanders on the ground.  The next sixth months will be critical.

>
> > > If the potential commanders on the ground had been listened to(if we
> > > are going in, go big), this mess would have been over with 5 years ago..

>
> > Dumbass -

>
> > Not if they were going to de-Baathify the country. Sending in more
> > troops would not have solved the long term problem of the power vacuum
> > created by removing the government.

>
> > The only way to get it over w/ fast would've been to depose Saddam,
> > leave the power structure in place and appoint a more transparent head
> > of state.

>
> > thanks,

>
> > K. Gringioni.

>
> Dumbass - I think George Bush said it best:
> "Why We Didn't Remove Saddam"
>
> George Bush [Sr.] and Brent Scowcroft
>
> Time (2 March 1998)
>
> "While we hoped that popular revolt or coup would topple Saddam,
> neither the U.S. nor the countries of the region wished to see the
> breakup of the Iraqi state. We were concerned about the long-term
> balance of power at the head of the Gulf. Trying to eliminate Saddam,
> extending the ground war into an occupation of Iraq, would have
> violated our guideline about not changing objectives in midstream,
> engaging in "mission creep," and would have incurred incalculable
> human and political costs... We would have been forced to occupy
> Baghdad and, in effect, rule Iraq. The coalition would instantly have
> collapsed, the Arabs deserting it in anger and other allies pulling
> out as well... Had we gone the invasion route, the U.S. could
> conceivably still be an occupying power in a bitterly hostile land. It
> would have been a dramatically different--and perhaps barren--
> outcome."




Dumbass -


Oh, I agree that the actions taken by Bush Sr. and his successor B.
Clinton were preferable.

But, if you do make the decision to take out a head of state, there is
a way to do it and they did it the wrong way.


thanks,

K. Gringioni.
 
T

Tom Kunich

Guest
"Bret" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]..
On May 1, 2:22 pm, "Tom Kunich" <[email protected] com> wrote:
> > "Scott" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]m...
> > On May 1, 8:50 am, "Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com"
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > > If the potential commanders on the ground had been listened to(if we
> > > > are going in, go big), this mess would have been over with 5 years
> > > > ago.

> >
> > > And your expertise in strategic and/or operational war-planning is
> > > based on what experience?

> >
> > He was an officer. What about you?

>
> Scott was an army officer. Peter was a pilot.


Are you unaware that pilots are officers?
 
B

Bret

Guest
On May 1, 3:39 pm, "Tom Kunich" <[email protected] com> wrote:
> "Bret" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]..
> On May 1, 2:22 pm, "Tom Kunich" <[email protected] com> wrote:
>
> > > "Scott" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > >news:[email protected]m....
> > > On May 1, 8:50 am, "Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com"
> > > <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > > > If the potential commanders on the ground had been listened to(if we
> > > > > are going in, go big), this mess would have been over with 5 years
> > > > > ago.

>
> > > > And your expertise in strategic and/or operational war-planning is
> > > > based on what experience?

>
> > > He was an officer. What about you?

>
> > Scott was an army officer. Peter was a pilot.

>
> Are you unaware that pilots are officers?


No, I am not unaware that pilots are officers. Are pilot officers
typically well trained in operational war planning?

Bret
 
K

Kurgan Gringioni

Guest
On May 1, 2:29 pm, Bret <[email protected]> wrote:
> On May 1, 2:22 pm, "Tom Kunich" <[email protected] com> wrote:
>
> > "Scott" <[email protected]> wrote in message

>
> >news:[email protected]m...
> > On May 1, 8:50 am, "Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com"

>
> > <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> > > > If the potential commanders on the ground had been listened to(if we
> > > > are going in, go big), this mess would have been over with 5 years ago.

>
> > > And your expertise in strategic and/or operational war-planning is
> > > based on what experience?

>
> > He was an officer. What about you?

>
> Scott was an army officer. Peter was a pilot.




Dumbass -


The worst decisions in our natiion's conduct of this war weren't made
at a tactical level and they were not necessarily anything that a
lower to mid-level officer would be trained to recognize.

The big mistakes were the grand strategic/political decisions. The de-
Baathification of Iraq and the removal of the power structure that
kept the various factions in Iraq in check. The decision to abandon
containment.

Making the correct strategic decisions in this particular case
involves possessing a knowledge of the culture of the region, the
history of war in general, and a bit of side knowledge on general
sociology and governance. Being a lower to mid level officer doesn't
require any of that knowledge although it should be noted that it
should be a prerequisite for the highest generals and the Joint Chiefs
were against the war because they possessed the knowledge and knew
what was going to happen. Unfortunately, Bush was Bush, Cheney was
Cheney, Rumsfeld was Rumsfeld and the military did what good soldiers
do: they followed orders.


thanks,

K. Gringioni.
 
T

Tom Kunich

Guest
"Bret" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> No, I am not unaware that pilots are officers. Are pilot officers
> typically well trained in operational war planning?


The one's I worked with were. They attended War College.
 
T

Tom Kunich

Guest
"Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]m...
>
> The big mistakes were the grand strategic/political decisions. The de-
> Baathification of Iraq and the removal of the power structure that
> kept the various factions in Iraq in check. The decision to abandon
> containment.


In other words - we should have retained the minority power structure that
was holding everything else in check by murder and force of arms. I'm sure
that every Liberal here agrees with Henry since the last several decades
have shown that Liberal's thinking seems to closely follow Communist and
National Socialist lines of thought concerning control of the populace.

> Making the correct strategic decisions in this particular case
> involves possessing a knowledge of the culture of the region, the
> history of war in general, and a bit of side knowledge on general
> sociology and governance.


Remind me again what your credentials are for thinking that you could think?
 
F

Fred Fredburger

Guest
John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> On Thu, 1 May 2008 00:11:16 -0700 (PDT), Robert Chung
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> http://anonymous.coward.free.fr/temp/1may08.png

>
> Well, it looks like the rate of death is tapering off, which is
> evidence the surge is working. We should respect the judgement of the
> commanders on the ground. The next sixth months will be critical.
>
>


It's Neocon John, coming soon to a toy store near you.