mixing intervals and endurance



mirek

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Oct 8, 2003
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I'm currently going to enter into SMSP intervals phase (Morris way), but still want to do some endurance work. I found the statement made by Andrew Coggan that "You'd be far more likely to achieve an increase in muscle buffering capacity if you did these (4 min) intervals in the first hour of your ride". It has to do with lower glycogen stores and difficulty with driving pH low enough.

So, is it always better to do high intensity work at the beginning of the longer workout? Does it depend on the kind of intervals (sprints, leadouts, 1 min, 3 min etc.)?

As to specifity rule it seems better to do them at the end of the endurance ride (like finishing at the end of the race), but from the other hand when one is fresh he/she is more likely to achieve higher intensity, quality of intervals work.

What is the best approach?
 
I gotta go with Andy on this one (big surprise :rolleyes: ). The purpose of intervals is to allow a person to reach the proper intensity to stimulate the desired adaptations and do a higher degree of volume there -- they are not intended to be entirely specific.

If you want the most specific RR practice, then ride RRs 4 times a week. If you want to isolate a particular weakness or develop a particular fitness attribute, do intervals which target that ability. Personally, I do my sprints/jumps at the beginning of an endurance ride, rather than the end.
 
In general you should do the most intense section first. This holds effect whether day-to-day or in the context of a workout.

However, I know that some pros will move some intervals closer to the end of the workout when getting closer to races. This may work because of some not yet studied well enough mechanism but chances are good that it doesn't help much with the adaptations. For sure if your ability to produce power is significantly compromised then no amount of "specificity" will help. Doing intervals at the end probably has to do with confidence and other intangibles.

It would be an interesting test for you to see just how much power loss you experience.


Anyway, it doesn't make much sense to do your endurance output when super fresh and then have to stop your V02 workout halfway through.


Greg
 
When I posted the training of a couple of US based Pros building up to the NZ Track Nationals they were training 4-6 hours a day including interval work. They would do interval workouts using their BT ergs and then head out on the road for another 2-4 hours.

While racing usually gets harder towards the end of a race you want to do your training at higher power outputs early when you have the energy to give the most to it.

Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach
 
mirek said:
I'm currently going to enter into SMSP intervals phase (Morris way), but still want to do some endurance work. I found the statement made by Andrew Coggan that "You'd be far more likely to achieve an increase in muscle buffering capacity if you did these (4 min) intervals in the first hour of your ride". It has to do with lower glycogen stores and difficulty with driving pH low enough.

So, is it always better to do high intensity work at the beginning of the longer workout? Does it depend on the kind of intervals (sprints, leadouts, 1 min, 3 min etc.)?

Yes, it depends on your objectives. Also depends just how hard you exert yourself in the earlier part of the ride and how well you can handle the intervals you're going to do. I think recovery between parts of your training sessions improves dramatically with good training so that even after an hour or two of riding/training you can still do some very high-quality efforts. This does depend on the amount of, and the mix of training objectives within the ride. When you're less fit you would probably want to do those harder efforts earlier in the training session.

[/QUOTE]As to specificity rule it seems better to do them at the end of the endurance ride (like finishing at the end of the race), but from the other hand when one is fresh he/she is more likely to achieve higher intensity, quality of intervals work.

What is the best approach?[/QUOTE]

Either one, it depends. When you sprint at the end of a race you don't have all the same resources available that you'd probably have at the beginning of the race, or training session. For sprinting, it would really depend on what aspect of your fitness and/or technique you're aiming at during that training session or part of the training session.

For example, at the end of a race you probably don't have much left in your fibers that can produce high peak force, 2x/2b's, so do you want to do all your sprints early in a training session when these fibers will contribute a more to the efforts, or are you more interested in training the fatigue resistant fibers to help with your sprint (like they will at the end of a race)?

If you do 30/30 intervals for improving race efforts, which fibers and enzymes do you want to train or focus on?

Also, earlier intervals can serve as a good warmup for later intervals, e.g. tempo before threshold or sprints, or tempo, then threshold, then VO2max intensity. Or the earlier intervals can serve their own objectives and to pre-fatigue some fibers so the later stresses will be even higher.
 
maybe doing a few ints while fresh at the start of your ride and then finish with one or two.
 
OK guys, thanks for your input.

Anyway, let's say that I'm doing a set of VO2max intervals at the beginning of the workout - my wattage is high, HR is high also. Then I ride for 3-4 hours in a L2-L3 zone. And finally I'm doing the same intervals, but this time my wattage drops a little bit even if my HR goes as high as was at the begining.

In this case - am I stimulating my VO2max less because of the lower power output or is it quite similar due to comparable, high HR?
 
mirek said:
OK guys, thanks for your input.

Anyway, let's say that I'm doing a set of VO2max intervals at the beginning of the workout - my wattage is high, HR is high also. Then I ride for 3-4 hours in a L2-L3 zone. And finally I'm doing the same intervals, but this time my wattage drops a little bit even if my HR goes as high as was at the begining.

In this case - am I stimulating my VO2max less because of the lower power output or is it quite similar due to comparable, high HR?
Your high HR but lower output at the end of the workout could just be cardiac drift or any number of things. The heart has to pump harder to get the same amount of oxygen to your muscles. However, since your power output is lower your muscles are using less oxygen even with the high heart rate. Also, if your power drops too much then you may not even be hitting vo2max which would make the workout not very effective. Now that you've found that the power drops a good bit then Id say to do the intervals inthe beginning.


Greg
 
gvanwagner said:
Also, if your power drops too much then you may not even be hitting vo2max which would make the workout not very effective.

Maybe, but is the objective to be training at a certain amount of power, or is the objective to be at a certain amount of intensity/oxygen utilization, cardiovascular stress, etc.?
 
WarrenG said:
Maybe, but is the objective to be training at a certain amount of power, or is the objective to be at a certain amount of intensity/oxygen utilization, cardiovascular stress, etc.?

Power is almost always a better indicator of VO2, and hence cardiovascular strain, than heart rate.
 
acoggan said:
Power is almost always a better indicator of VO2, and hence cardiovascular strain, than heart rate.

So what? Those aren't either/or choices. You don't even have to measure either one to implement or confirm VO2max training. Respiration?
 
WarrenG said:
Maybe, but is the objective to be training at a certain amount of power, or is the objective to be at a certain amount of intensity/oxygen utilization, cardiovascular stress, etc.?
Well, if you're fatigued and can't produce the proper amount of power then really your not doing either. In the end it's a lot of stress without much gain.

At the same worload, if the heart is beating 10 bpm faster then before then that doesn't mean that the muscles are taking up more oxygen. Even worse, it may not even mean that cardiac output is any greater, depending on the circumstances.


Greg
 
WarrenG said:
So what? Those aren't either/or choices. You don't even have to measure either one to implement or confirm VO2max training. Respiration?

The "so what" is that if power is down, VO2 and cardiac output are likely lower as well...and the central training effect is related to the VO2 and/or cardiac output you achieve and sustain, not just how fast you can make your heart beat (as demonstrated, e.g., by the fact that one-legged training at a high heart rate doesn't increase your two-legged VO2max, or by the fact that circuit training results in minimal changes in VO2max despite elevating heart rate as much as aerobic exercise, e.g., running or cycling).
 
acoggan said:
The "so what" is that if power is down, VO2 and cardiac output are likely lower as well...

Likely? Possibly? and not necessarily. A bit of fatigue does not prevent us from being at VO2max intensity. Even though power is somewhat lower than what could be measured during a lab test of VO2max power the effort can still illicit VO2max.
 
WarrenG said:
A bit of fatigue does not prevent us from being at VO2max intensity.

No, but a lot of fatigue does - which is why, in general, it is better to do intervals aimed at raising VO2max earlier vs. later in a workout, as well as earlier vs. later in a week (on the assumption that you follow a typical weekly schedule, and are fresher earlier in the week).

WarrenG said:
Even though power is somewhat lower than what could be measured during a lab test of VO2max power the effort can still illicit VO2max.

No, but if it is more than "somewhat" lower, you won't elicit VO2max, or more correctly, maximal cardiac output.
 
mirek said:
Anyway, let's say that I'm doing a set of VO2max intervals at the beginning of the workout - my wattage is high, HR is high also. Then I ride for 3-4 hours in a L2-L3 zone.

Not to side track this discussion entirely, but have you ever tried riding 3-4 hours in L2/3 after doing a hard L5 workout? Good luck!
 

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