Miyata 610 wheel replacement recommendations 27 x1 1/4 sealed hub 36 spokes

Discussion in 'Touring and recreational cycling' started by toddk, Jul 13, 2017.

  1. toddk

    toddk New Member

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    Have an original 1983 Miyata 610 with the original sealed hub wheels. Have had to replace a few spokes over the years and the wheel has remained fairly straight. Recently started to wobble and will true it up.
    Is there an average lifespan for a wheel? Is it worth considering replacing after all these years? The model I have has 36 spokes. The marketing manual says rear wheels have 40 spokes. Not sure how I ended up with 36 on the back. Not been an issue even when loaded during bike touring.
    I have loved the sealed hubs. For me they were seemed almost maintenance free and worked year after year.
    Any suggestions for a good equivalent replacement?
     


  2. alfeng

    alfeng Well-Known Member

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    First, bicycle wheels do have a finite life span ... it depends on the rider (technique & total rider-bike weight) & road conditions ...

    The rim's "brake surface" can wear thin and thereby weaken the rim.

    If, by chance, you only replaced the rear brake pads one time, then you can measure the width of the rear rim's brake surface and compare it to the width of the front rim's brake surface to gauge the amount of wear on the front rim ...

    If the difference is more than 1.0mm then (presuming the front & rear rim are the same model, of course) the front rim is probably near-or-past it's realistic life span.​

    Second, the term "sealed" isn't clearly defined ...

    Unless your wheels have Phil Woods hubs then I would guess that in 1983 the term "sealed" simply meant that there is a cap shrouding the bearings ...​

    What kind (as in "brand") of hubs does your bike have?

    As far as the number of spokes, 40 spoke rear wheels were not uncommon BEFORE 1970 on some bikes & were commonly paired with a 28 spoke front wheel when the spokes were little more than glorified coat hangers instead of being made from stainless steel wire.

    If by chance you have only replaced the rear brake pads on your

    FWIW. If I were you then I would probably use this occasion to switch to 700c wheels and tires ...

    700x32 tires are essentially the same circumference as 27x1.25" tires.​

    You can either have your hubs re-laced with the fore mentioned 700c rims ((I recommend 622-17 if your preference is for a touring wheelset) or have new rims laced to a Shimano Shimano/-compatible Freehub ...

    Shimano made a "compact" version of their Freehub body which was specifically designed for a 7-speed Cassette ...

    An 8-speed Shimano/-compatible Cassette can be short stacked and used as a 7-speed Cassette with an 8-speed indexed shifter ...

    A 9-speed Shimano/-compatible Cassette can be short stacked and used as an 8-speed Cassette in tandem with a 9-speed indexed shifter (Shimano OR MicroShift) ...

    With only a modest amount of effort, you could cobble together a rear wheel with a Shimano Freehub-type rear hub which will fit in your frame's 126mm dropouts.​

    I believe that 7-speed Cassettes and Freewheels had the same Cog spacing as the SunTour ULTRA Freewheels ...

    Just as the 6-speed Ultra Freewheel fits in the space of a traditional 5-speed Freewheel, the 7-speed (Ultra) fits in the space of a standard 6-speed Freewheel ...​

    The 8-speed Shimano chain is basically a clone of the SEDIS NARROW chain and can be used with 6-/7-/8-speed Freewheels and Cassettes.

    7-speed Cassettes and Freewheels have the same Cog spacing as 8-speed Cassettes; so, that means that you could easily update your bike with indexed shifters.

    Almost ALL recent Freewheels (SunRace) and Cassettes (all brands) have RAMPED Cogs which make shifting smoother & allows for some wiggle-room in the adjustment of the indexing.​

    BTW. I recommend Campagnolo shifters . Campagnolo shifters can be used with almost ANY cable actuated front derailleur AND the 10-speed Campagnolo shifter can be indexed with 8-speed (and, therefore 7-speed) and 9-speed Shimano Cassettes & rear derailleurs AND (of course) 10-speed Campagnolo Cassettes and rear derailleurs.

    I do not know whether-or-not SunTour rear derailleurs can be used with any indexed shifters.​
     
  3. Froze

    Froze Well-Known Member

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    suntour rear derailleur will not work with indexed shifters unless that shifter has a way of converting it to friction as some did, then as converted to friction it will work. Not sure why that was even brought up since the OP's question was in regards to wheels.

    Getting back on track with wheels, if you want to take all the guess work out of getting a set of wheels then call Peter White Cycles at: 603 478 0900, and this is his web link: http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/ This guy knows his wheels, BUT for the best results accept what he recommends, simply tell him your story and how the bike will be used, and he'll build the wheels, his prices are very fair too. Read his website he has lots of rims, spokes, and hubs, but once he knows how you'll use the bike and your weight his recommendation will be spot on, don't even try to think and act you know more than he does when talking with him, he doesn't like that sort of thing. I have a set of wheels built by him and I haven't even needed to adjust the spokes yet after 5 or so years.

    Just keep it simple, no need to get all difficult with your situation. A 7 speed freewheel will work and usually all that's required at the most is to redish the rear wheel a bit, but if you have Peter White build the wheels he won't have your bike so really all you need is to stay with the current 6 speeds. Going to 7 speed cluster gains you NOTHING on the high or low end range of your gears, and in touring there isn't really a need for a 7.
     
  4. alfeng

    alfeng Well-Known Member

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    Well ...

    A 1983 Miyata's 6-speed Freewheel probably had a traditional, comparatively WIDE cog spacing rather than a Freewheel with "Ultra" spacing ...

    If the OP is having his wheels rebuilt, then he may need-or-choose to decide that the time has come to decide whether-or-not his current hubs can-or-should still be used OR if he should opt for a set of wheels which are built on a hub which has a Freehub body.

    Is that not right?
    If it is correct, then he needs to know that there are no off-the-shelf Cassettes which have the wider spacing found on older Freewheels ... of course, friction shifting does not care about the Cog spacing ...

    BUT, the OP may want to take advantage of the fact that even a 7-speed Cassette can be easily indexed with some still CURRENTLY available shifters from Campagnolo, Shimano, and/or MicroShift when tandemed with almost any currtently available 8-/9-/10-speed Shimano rear derailleur ...

    The Campagnolo-Shimano combination will have the advantage of NOT requiring a new front derailleur.
    As far as a wheelset built by Peter White ... that sounds like a good idea IF the OP has pockets which are as deep as some which some of the denizens of this Forum have.

     
  5. Froze

    Froze Well-Known Member

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    Again, you have over complicated a simple issue, 6 speed freewheels and hubs that will go with it are readily found. Origin8 makes a sealed freewheel style hub for only $30, plus they have a matching front sealed hub for the same cost; or go in E-Bay and find brand new unused Suntour sealed thread on freewheel hubs. Besides all he may have to do is fine the sealed bearings on E-bay or have the original ones rebuilt, also I heard somewhere that Cane Creek uses the same format and size sealed bearings in their hubs as Suntour did, but that would have to be a subject to address directly to Cane Creek. Read this too: https://leylandp38.wordpress.com/2010/09/26/replacing-sealed-bearings-on-a-suntour-superbe-pro-hub/

    Freewheels are still made to this very day by Shimano and Sunrace (Nashbar and Jenson may have these); or you can get the same brand, in his case "probably(?)" Suntour Winner Ultra, new and unused in their boxes on E-Bay, but going original route will cost about $150 but why pay that when Shimano works just fine for under $25? I've had to replace my Winner gears over the years and have always used Shimano with no shifting issues whatsoever.

    Peter White's prices are not that bad unless you go with Phil Wood hubs which won't apply in this case, plus you can send them your own hubs; but using his hubs the cost is around $385 for both front and rear according to his website (but call first for prices), but again that includes buying hubs from him. Talk about money, with all the changes Alfene that you want him to do it would exceed the cost of just staying with the original setup!
     
  6. alfeng

    alfeng Well-Known Member

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    Thinking about your reply ...

    Perhaps you are correct that I am overthinking the reply ...​

    BUT, if budget is a factor, then the bearings should simply be serviced and IF the rims are in good condition, then servicing the bearings should suffice AND it is extreme overkill (IMO) to pony up $385+ for a set of Peter White wheels ...

    While his wheel may be superior to what you or I may cobble together, I doubt that they are significantly better than what you or I may produce ... and/or, from the wheels one may get from COLORADO CYCLIST or EXCEL or whomever ....
    I also have a hard time believing that YOU couldn't re-build the OP's bike with indexed shifters & rear wheel with a "contemporary" rear Freehub for under $385 ...

    • <$130 for a NEW set of 10-speed Campagnolo shifters on eBay ... and, less for a NEW set of MicroShift shifters.
    • <$80 for a Shimano rear hub + 12-34 Cassette
    • <$20 9-speed Shimano chain
    • <$30 Shimano rear derailleur
    • <$30 cables & housing
    • <$50 misc. bicycle specific tools
    • <$20 eighteen driveside spokes
    • <$3 white litihium grease
    FYI. The 5-speed 14-34 SunTour Freewheel was a boat anchor, so a 6-speed 14-34 SunTour Freewheel, alone, probably weighs MORE than the combined weight of most (but, not all) Freehubs + 12-34 Cassettes combinations ...

    Switching to a Freehub + Cassette will allow a smaller smallest Cog (i.e., an 11t or 12t smallest Cog) which also means that the largest Cog can be smaller OR the lowest gear can be lower.
    So, while it may be overthinking to suggest more than a simple servicing of the wheel bearings, there ARE reasons to use the occasion as an opportunity to consider updating some of the bike's components.
     
  7. Froze

    Froze Well-Known Member

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    You forgot the labor...assuming he's not doing all the work himself.

    Keep in mind though that the Microshift is not a life long lasting product like the Suntour stuff is, Suntour rarely has any failures, I have Suntour Superbe stuff on a bike that has over 150,000 miles on them and not even the bearings have had to be replaced.

    Personally I wouldn't buy a Suntour freewheel due to the price they want for them on Ebay, especially since Shimano works just fine with Suntour, not sure about Sunrace never used that brand.

    That's why I mentioned servicing the wheel bearings because that would be the cheapest way to go.

    Updating in some respects can lead to more issues and more issues means more money or end up with a bike that won't function as well as it use to, and nothing made today is as reliable as Suntour was back in their heyday, and then trying to go ultra cheap with Microshift is just another thing to wrong sooner. And if he's been using the bike for a long time he's more than use to friction shifting, friction shifting is a bullet proof system that never fails to work, SIS or STI (they're actually the same believe it or not, just the shifters were moved to the brake levers instead of on the down tube, otherwise they're the same thing), these systems when they go out of adjustment just won't shift right till you fix it. I'm not a real strict retrogrouch, I have a new bike I got in 2013 so I am well acquainted with the newer non electrical stuff, (I had another newer bike I got in 2005 but I sold it); but I also have 4 road bikes with friction and 2 roadies with SIS, and for durability nothing beats the friction stuff, however for slightly faster shifting nothing beats the SIS...not even STI because STI has longer cable runs and more turns, of course electronic is the fastest but I have no desire to ever buy a bike with that on it.

    Please note TODDDK: all that I or Alfeng said is just opinion, neither of us are right or wrong, you can do it whatever way you feel that's right for you, if you want to do the budget route and keep everything vintage and easy to fix with long term reliability then go my route, if you want to make improvements to the bike and modernize then go Alfeng's route. But if you decide to go Alfeng's route make sure you keep all the original components because if you decide in the future to sell the bike it will be worth more with the vintage stuff on it.
     
  8. alfeng

    alfeng Well-Known Member

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    With the understanding that you and I are probably alone in this thread ...

    Let me assure you that I am all too aware that there is a HUGE difference in cost between DIY and having the LBS perform the labor ...

    IMO, everyone EXCEPT for surgeons (medical & dental), dental hygenists, hand models, people with arthritis AND (I will now add the filthy rich) should (consider) do(ing) their own wrenching unless they don't mind trips to their LBS and/or not having their bike to ride for a few days.

    Regardless, if you wade through what may be excessive verbiage, I did include an allowance of roughly $50 for non-bicycle tools which was my inferrence that the OP would not be taking the bike to a shop for the labor.​

    YOUR inclusion of the link which detailed how to replace cartridge hub bearings BOTH indicated that it could be readily done and inferred that the OP could (probably) do it as a DIY endeavor.

    MICROSHIFT. Several months ago, because I am an inquiring mind, I finally bought a new pair of 9-speed MicroShift shifters (via eBay) + (separately) a 9-speed Microshift rear derailleur ... BOTH are Shimano compatible/interchangeable ...

    I still have NOT put them on a bike, but I will say that my assessment is that if I were not a Campagnolo aficianodo that I would not hesitate to use them on a bike ... on my "regular" bike ...

    The rear derailleur is probably comparable to a 105 rear derailleur (the pulleys have bushings) ...

    There are TWO (?!?) glaring problems which I encountered when attempting to disassemble the rear derailleur for assessment ...

    I know that I will want to change the pulleys at some time in the future. I was only able to remove ONE of the pulley bolts without any difficulty ... however, the other's receiving hex began to round out when I neeed to exert more-than-usual force ... that means, that at some point in time I will have to drill out the bolt's head & use a pair of vise-grips to remove the bolt.

    This is more of a nuisance than a problem.
    However, "ditto" for the recessed bolt which secures the cage to the front knuckle ...

    It's as if someone at the factory put a drop of superglue in the threads rather than loctite ...

    Maybe they did!?!
    The two too-tight bolts may be a hit-and-miss situation from unit to unit, but it means that if anything ever happens to the cage which warrants replacement then my MicroShift rear derailleur is trash ... and of course, it is a reflection on the assembly.
    Otherwise, the particular MicrosShift rear derailleur appears to be a solidly built unit which should probably last as long as any Shimano rear derailleur with the fore mentioned deficiencies ...
    As far as the shifters, without knowing their expected-or-intended longevity OR being able to predict how long they will last when compared with a pair of 105 shifters (I will suggest that they are comparable to 105 shifters based on the rear derailleur), I will say that I like them ...

    The throw of the inner paddle to move the chain to a larger Cog is comparable to that of most shifters ... but, I would describe that the motion of the lever to move the chain back to a smaller Cog is akin to pressing a key on a keyboard ... a very short & decisive "click" ... in retrospect, I guess that the short (i.e., comparatively "micro") shift is where the name came from!

    The obvious (?) place where there is a difference in the "quality" of the construction is in the shifter's escape sprocket. The sprocket in both Campagnolo & Shimano shifters is forged & (presumably) lightly machined ... on the other hand, the escape sprocket in the MicroShift shifter is stamped from an unknown grade of steel ...

    Regardless, because all non-Shimano shifters lack the "dwell" that I have previously disdained which is one of the hallmarks of Shimano shifters BUT the MicroShift shifter is compatible, I would definitely choose it if I only had one bike and were not using Campagnolo shifters.

    BTW. I've said it innumerable times -- if I had not realized that my Campagnolo shifters could handle downshifting to a larger Cog when the drivetrain was under a load, I would have switched back to What's-not-to-love-about-them? downtube shifters on my Shimano equipped bikes.
    The short throw on the MicroShift shifter to release the escape mechanism is vastly shorter than the throw on Shimano's inner paddle AND also on Campagnolo's PowerShift thumb lever (which is fairly minimal) ...

    MicroShift's return lever is obviously much more efficient than the nonetheless-elegant Double Tap's required motion to execute the return shift.

    IMO, the only advantage which SRAM shifters had over Shimano shifters was the lack of "dwell" in its takeup spool ...
    The derailleur cables exit the 9-speed MicroShift shifters in the manner of the first three generations of Shimano shifters.

    The ergonomics are akin to those on the pair of Ultegra 6600 shifters which I have wihch are collecting dust -- very comfortable for my hand size ... but, that's subjective.

    AFAIK, the MicroShift front shifter can handle a Triple ... the SRAM shifter is unnecessarily hobbled & only capable of handling a Double (of course, THAT is not a problem for most riders & their bike configurations) ...
    The bottom line is that for people who can't wrap their minds around using Campagnolo shifters with Shimano derailleurs to overcome the dodgy shifting which sometimes occurs when a mechanical Shimano drivetrain is under a load due to the "dwell" designed in Shimano's STI shifters, I think that the MicroShift shifters will probably be a very good alternative.
     
  9. Froze

    Froze Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately Microshift is an odd duck component, I don't know anyone who has bought one so I have no personal insight at into them. For me Microshift, which comes from Taiwan, is like Hyundai or Kia when they first came to America, not that great but cheap, as time has gone by both Hyundai and Kia have improved dramatically, and so I hope it will be with Microshift. Here's the thing, the cycling world NEEDS more competition in the component world which should help bring prices down a bit on all the makers. So I'm not going to bemoan them for trying, I just would be hesitant at this time to buy their product due to the lack of long term reliability studies, ie high mileage usage. I know where I live there isn't one LBS here that sells the product, so this area would be a problem trying to get replacement parts. And in order for Microshift to hit the big time they're going to have to come out with an electronic system, which they probably will. The cool thing about Microshift that even their top of the line only cost less than $300 for briftors, front and rear derailleur, however, everything I've read seems to relate the top of the line Arsis is closer to the performance and feel of Shimano Tiagra though Arsis is quite a bit lighter than Tiagra, if that is an accurate comparison, again I have no clue, then it may not be as good of a deal as it sounds since for about $25 more the Tiagra at least comes with the crankset including bottom bracket, brake calipers, a cassette, and a chain, all of which doesn't come with the Microshift.

    Anyway for me, it's a dilemma which like I said at this time I personally would not buy the Microshift product.
     
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