Modernize and upgrade required.



Duffer

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Feb 10, 2007
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Help me spend some money!
I was an avid cyclist decades ago and enjoyed loaded touring. 25-years later, I’m getting back into it and need to modernize. Here is what I have now:
Canondale touring frame with steel fork.
Shimano 105 side-pull brakes.
Old-style brake levers and exterior cables.
27-inch Weinman rims, 48 spokes in the back, 36 in the front.
Phil Woods hubs.
Phil Woods bottom bracket.
Huret Duopar titanium rear derailleur.
Unrecalled front derailleur.
Generic frame mounted shifters.
Triple crank of unrecalled lineage.
Regina 6-speed cassette.
Shimano pedals.
Blackburn racks.
Fenders, because it rains on my vacations.

Does anyone still use 27-inch wheels? The difficulty is the frame-mount for the rear wheel brake, appropriate for a 27-inch, but wrong for a 700c. Due to the Canondale frame, I couldn’t use cantilever brakes, but I’m willing to replace the fork for one with mounts. The frame is not set up for internal cables, but I’d be willing to drill if it doesn’t weaken it. I’m in Germany, I don’t speak the language well, and I need to tell the bike shop exactly what to order for loaded touring.

I want to keep the frame because it doesn’t flex under load. What components do I need to get, and what do you recommend? Hey – help me spend some money!
 

bike_racer102

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Aug 10, 2006
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We don't usually use bikes with 27 inch rims but you can if you want, I reccomend using use 700x23c wheels
 

mikesbytes

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Apr 12, 2006
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27" tyres can still be purchased, but your options are limited.

700c wheels are, I think 4mm smaller than 27" wheels, if you are lucky your existing brakes may work, otherwise you could try some different brakes.
 

Bro Deal

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Jun 26, 2006
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You will have some problems with upgrading. Your rear dropouts on your frame are probably spaced at 126 mm, possibly even 120 mm if you have an early six speed that fit into the dropout spacing for five speed. The current standard on the road is 130 mm. With an aluminum frame you cannot spread the dropouts so you are sort of stuck.

Pedals are an easy upgrade. You might want to get some SPD pedals with mountain bike shoes because the lugs protect the cleat while you walk around. Modern shoes with ultra stiff shoes and weather proof synthetic leather are much better than the shoes from twenty years ago.
 

Duffer

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Feb 10, 2007
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I shall measure the dropout and get back with you.

I'd like to replace the rims and still use my Phil Woods sealed bearing hubs, 48-spoke rear and 36-spoke front. Where can I get 700c rims like this? Is there a tandem shop on-line I can examine?

Going with the 700c likely means adjusting the brakes so they actually grab the rims. Are there devices to accomplish this?

Now, if push comes to shove, what about a new machine? I like ultra-stiff frames wihout the wag of steel when I have panniers front and back, so I ended up with an aluminum frame. Someone mentioned buying a Canondale T2000, but I don't see it listed at their website. Is it still made?
 

alfeng

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Jul 23, 2005
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Duffer said:
I shall measure the dropout and get back with you.

I'd like to replace the rims and still use my Phil Woods sealed bearing hubs, 48-spoke rear and 36-spoke front. Where can I get 700c rims like this? Is there a tandem shop on-line I can examine?

Going with the 700c likely means adjusting the brakes so they actually grab the rims. Are there devices to accomplish this?

Now, if push comes to shove, what about a new machine? I like ultra-stiff frames wihout the wag of steel when I have panniers front and back, so I ended up with an aluminum frame. Someone mentioned buying a Canondale T2000, but I don't see it listed at their website. Is it still made?
I think you will have a difficult time finding 700c rims drilled for 48h lacing.

AFAIK, SunTour became SunRace when the company was moved to Taiwan ... the freewheel removal tool is different.

The 7-speed SunRace freewheel that I had was ramped AND indexed for Shimano SIS -- I haven't looked at the freewheel, lately, but I think the spacing is the same as for 8-speed. The 7-speed SunRace freewheel fits a 126mm rear wheel. I was using an old SEDIS narrow chain, but a Shimano 9-speed chain will certainly work well, too, since it looks like a direct COPY!?!

MY observation is that the 10-speed CAMPAGNOLO ERGO/ERGOPOWER shifters will index to an 8-speed cassette (either Shimano or Campagnolo) when mated to an 8-/9-speed Shimano rear derailleur and so should index to the 7-speed SunRace freewheel (this will fit a 126mm rear wheel). The Veloce OR Centaur (alloy levers) will be slightly better for touring than the Mirage (composite levers) -- about $100US, new ... sans cables, slightly more with the cables (they are worth it).

I recommend the Shimano XTR 950/952 rear derailleur (8-/9-speed, respectively) ... they are readily available as a USED item on eBay for between $40-to-90US depending on condition (used-to-new). The only meaningful difference between the 950 & 952 is that the 950 has 10t pulley wheels whereas the 952 has 11t pulley wheels.

The Campagnolo shifters are probably IDEAL for touring ... you can easily downshift when under load (i.e., going uphill) with the Campagnolo shifters ... whereas, the Shimano shifters may hesitate AND you pay more for the inconvenience!
 

mikesbytes

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Apr 12, 2006
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I'd forgotten about the dropout width, with my old steel frame it wasn't a problem, but I wouldn't do it to an alloy frame.

Lacing new rims is just adding more work. Why don't you just buy some 27" tyres mail order.
 

Bro Deal

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Jun 26, 2006
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alfeng said:
I think you will have a difficult time finding 700c rims drilled for 48h lacing.
Velocity offers 48 hole drillings I think. If you use a deeper rim you don't need 48 anyway.
 

retrorider

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Jun 8, 2006
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I think you should start your upgrade with a new frame, there are a lot of options there: Alu, Steel, Alu/Carbon, Carbon, Steel/Carbon, Ti. Whatever fits your buget. Then you can buy a new group. I would go with either Shimano 105 or Campy Centaur, your preference. Then get yourself some Mavic Open Pros w/ the corresponding 105 or Centaur Hubs. Get yourself a nice seat post that fits your bike frame and a comfy seat that fits your other frame. Then buy a stem that fits your reach and some handlebars. Don't forget the cork ribbon to cover your new handlebars. Oh you might need some spacers between the stem and the headset your going to have to buy. You really should get some tires and tubes to finish off your new upgrade maybe some 700/23 C's. If your frame does not come with a seat tube clamp you may want to buy one to keep your seatpost from slipping.

They sell upgrade packages fully asembled at your local bike store.

It really may be more economical to buy the new technology fully assembled than trying to upgrade your old ride. Retire it. Clean it all up and hang it on the wall.
 

Duffer

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Feb 10, 2007
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Using the search term "tandem rims" I found two shops with 700c 36-spoke (front wheel) and 48-spoke (rear wheel) lacing. When I examined the prices for complete wheels, I decided to use my current Phil Woods hubs and just get new 700c rims.

Well then, it appears it shall be an upgrade. Now the work begins.

The opinion I hear is to get a dual-pivot brake set. Which make and model? And do they make a mounting adaptor for the switch from 27-inch to 700c rims?

Drivetrain issues...

The bike will need to shift smoothly under load. Period.

Alfeng has some good ideas on what to get, but does anyone offer other suggestions?

I measured the rear dropout and it is either 125mm or 126mm (my dial calipers are misplaced). Which cluster to buy?

Which derailleurs to mount?
 

daveornee

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Sep 18, 2003
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Duffer said:
Help me spend some money!
I was an avid cyclist decades ago and enjoyed loaded touring. 25-years later, I’m getting back into it and need to modernize. Here is what I have now:
Canondale touring frame with steel fork.
Shimano 105 side-pull brakes.
Old-style brake levers and exterior cables.
27-inch Weinman rims, 48 spokes in the back, 36 in the front.
Phil Woods hubs.
Phil Woods bottom bracket.
Huret Duopar titanium rear derailleur.
Unrecalled front derailleur.
Generic frame mounted shifters.
Triple crank of unrecalled lineage.
Regina 6-speed cassette.
Shimano pedals.
Blackburn racks.
Fenders, because it rains on my vacations.

Does anyone still use 27-inch wheels? The difficulty is the frame-mount for the rear wheel brake, appropriate for a 27-inch, but wrong for a 700c. Due to the Canondale frame, I couldn’t use cantilever brakes, but I’m willing to replace the fork for one with mounts. The frame is not set up for internal cables, but I’d be willing to drill if it doesn’t weaken it. I’m in Germany, I don’t speak the language well, and I need to tell the bike shop exactly what to order for loaded touring.

I want to keep the frame because it doesn’t flex under load. What components do I need to get, and what do you recommend? Hey – help me spend some money!
http://de.cannondale.com/bikes/07/ce/urban/touring/model-7TR.html
in the USA you can get either T800 or T2000
 

Duffer

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Feb 10, 2007
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Okay, it's looking like a rebuild since I priced out a set of wheels with Phil Woods hubs. I also found some Shimano long-reach brakes.

And oh, what fun YOU shall have! The only thing better than spending money is spending someone else's money, right? So, let's get cracking.

The Shimano Shift Index System looks appealing. Is it available with a cassette for 126mm dropout with Phil Wood hubs?

Do I have to use their triple crank or can I continue with my Specialized triple? Can I use a Shimano triple crank with my Phil Wood sealed bottom bracket?

Which front derailleur? Which rear derailleur?

My headset is a sealed Shimano 600. Is an upgrade in order?

Examination finds I have Ritchie pedals, very similar to Shimano Ultegra. Is an upgrade in order?

Suppose I did replace the fork, (the Duffer's on a roll here, don't cloud my judgement with unecessary thoughts of prudence) with another having studs for cantilevers. Where would I find a nice selection?

Hey, it's only money!

 

retrorider

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Jun 8, 2006
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I would hate to see what kind of car you drive. Probably a '74 Chevy Nova with a 2006 Lexus engine and drive train. Good luck on your upgrade.
 

Retro Grouch

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Dec 29, 2005
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Are you sure that you want to keep this frame? It's upgrade and modernization potential is limited. You are going to find yourself limited by the 126mm dropouts and by a frame that's designed for 27" wheels. Buying up a lot of new components to bolt onto an old frame is generally a recipe for spending the price of a new bike without getting a new bike.
 

daveornee

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Sep 18, 2003
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Duffer said:
Okay, it's looking like a rebuild since I priced out a set of wheels with Phil Woods hubs. I also found some Shimano long-reach brakes.

And oh, what fun YOU shall have! The only thing better than spending money is spending someone else's money, right? So, let's get cracking.

The Shimano Shift Index System looks appealing. Is it available with a cassette for 126mm dropout with Phil Wood hubs?

Do I have to use their triple crank or can I continue with my Specialized triple? Can I use a Shimano triple crank with my Phil Wood sealed bottom bracket?

Which front derailleur? Which rear derailleur?

My headset is a sealed Shimano 600. Is an upgrade in order?

Examination finds I have Ritchie pedals, very similar to Shimano Ultegra. Is an upgrade in order?

Suppose I did replace the fork, (the Duffer's on a roll here, don't cloud my judgement with unecessary thoughts of prudence) with another having studs for cantilevers. Where would I find a nice selection?

Hey, it's only money!

What Phil Wood hub for the 126 OLD rear?
 

Duffer

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Feb 10, 2007
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How would I determine which Phil Wood Hub?

A thought is perhaps to strip the frame of the good components and replace them to a better frame. My stem, bars, seat post, triple crank, and Phil Wood bottom bracket and hubs could all be saved for another frame. I'll be going for the 700c wheels anyway so cost for lacing with 48-spoke rear isn't really a consideration.

The game is afoot. I'll keep you posted.
 

daveornee

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Sep 18, 2003
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Duffer said:
How would I determine which Phil Wood Hub?

A thought is perhaps to strip the frame of the good components and replace them to a better frame. My stem, bars, seat post, triple crank, and Phil Wood bottom bracket and hubs could all be saved for another frame. I'll be going for the 700c wheels anyway so cost for lacing with 48-spoke rear isn't really a consideration.

The game is afoot. I'll keep you posted.
I would go with either end of the extremes:
1. Keep exisiting bicycle as is and get new 27" tubes and tires
or
2. Go with an entirely new fully equipped Canondale touring bicycle that I gave a link to in an earlier post + sell off the old one as a unit or in pieces.

As far as I can tell the only current 126 mm OLD Phil Wood hub is for freewheels. This limits your choice of gearing significantly.
A new 135 mm OLD Shimano HG compatible rear hub is a much better choice for current and future compatibility.
 

j.r.hawkins

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Jan 13, 2007
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I think you'd find it more cost-effective to just buy a new bike. The margin charged on parts is many times that of complete bikes. On a new purchase you get a warranty and you don't have the hassle of fitting together mismatched components.

Plus, the technology has both improved and become more affordable in leaps and bounds, especially over the last two years. What might have cost you 1-2 thousand 10-15 years ago you can pick up these days for just a couple of hundred bucks.

Isn't your time too valuable to spend it fluffing around with this sort of project?
 

Duffer

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Feb 10, 2007
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I don't have the items necessary to upload photos of the bike, which is a pain. The cell phone my employer uses for an electronic ball and chain has a camera, but dang-it! They declined to issue the needed items for uploading the jpg's.

It appears we may have modest potential for upgrading to the Shimano SIS, which I would strongly prefer, but it remains modest. Alfeng seems to have suceeded and I shall try to follow his lead. Would it require different chain rings on my triple crank? If I cannot achieve SIS, I will stick with the Huret Duopar and friction shifting.

Shimano and Tektro make long-reach brakes, so I am definately making the move to 700c rims. The Mavic T520 and Velocity Dyad are available in 48-spoke versions but the Sun CR-18 is far cheaper. Which would you buy?

Cannondale recalled my fork due to safety concerns, so I have to get a new fork anyway. Will it look odd to have a sidepull in back and cantilevers in the front? (Don't answer that, it's a rhetorical question, and yes, it will look funny). So if Cannondale doesn't cough up a new fork, which fork should I get?

And once again I must declare, "and now the fun begins - NOT!"

My command of the German language is limited to certain key phrases such as pointing to my empty glass in the bier garten and saying, "pilsner". Geesh, I hope I can find a good shop that doesn't either soak me for all the dough I've been saving, or points at my bike and laughs so hard they wee their lederhosen.

I'm thinking of mailing my bike back to the states for rebuild just so I can discuss the matter with another person. The cost of doing UPS for shipment exceeds the national debt of several small South American countries.