More Abusive Email from a Typical Mountain Biker

[stevemtbsteve]

>Please tell us what is abusive.

>Didn't you read the last sentence? Oh, I forgot, it contains words with more
than one syl-la-ble.

Oh, to be such a tender soul at least a chap with your qualifications, and your ability to rationalise will be able to learn from this experience and move on perhaps you could spend a few moments reflecting on the role of 'self', and how we as individuals affect our relationship with others Keep up the good work, we are all in there with you.

Cheers
Steve

ps. how's the anti-mountain bike campaign going?

 

[Jeff Strickland]

"Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sun, 1 May 2005 10:27:35 -0700, "Jeff Strickland" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
> .
> ."Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> .news:[email protected]...
> .
> .<snip a bunch of **** that M Vandeman should have snipped>
> .> .
> .> .You're being evasive again, Mikey.
> .> .
> .> .FWIW, I did read the letter from Park Ranger Grisak, but saw nothing
in
> .> his
> .> .letter that sounded "abusive". Perhaps your emotional state is
fragile
> .> due
> .> .to your obsessions, causing you to see "abuse" where others do not.
> .> .
> .> .Could you point out specific passages in Grisak's letter that you
> .> interpret
> .> .as "abusive"?
> .>
> .> It's obvious.
> .>
> .
> .It's only obvious to you. Please tell us what is abusive.
>
> Didn't you read the last sentence? Oh, I forgot, it contains words with
more
> than one syl-la-ble.

<quote>
Hike into the wilderness and stay a long, long time.
</quote>

Two words with more than one syllable. Hardly a difficult sentence to
understand. And, hardly an abuse. Idiot.

 

[Jeff Strickland]

"Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> .
> .Except for the snide remark, "Hey doc," that started the comment, I am
hard
> .pressed to find any abuse at all in the message.
>
> Didn't you read the last sentence?
>

Sure I did. It sounded like a good suggestion for you to get out and clear
your mind.

Maybe you took offense at the part about staying a long long time, and your
mind can be cleared quicker than that. I'd have to agree, you mind can be
cleared much quicker; you don't seem to keep much in it.

 

[Just zis Guy, you know?]

On Mon, 02 May 2005 05:33:45 -0400, pmhilton <[email protected]> wrote
in message <[email protected]>:

>You are attempting rational discourse with an irrational being.

Up to a point. Read the Vandeman FAQ and you'll find that it is
possible to fight him and win. He's been argued into the ground a
couple of times recently - either he's losing his touch or we're
getting better

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

 

[Gary S.]

On Mon, 02 May 2005 23:51:52 +0200, BarryNL <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Thanks, but I already have a qualification in biology. I'd suggest a
>better idea is for you to study something like social science or
>psychology which will teach you critical thinking.
>
Well, he has "critical" down. Someday he might learn to think instead
of emitting his opinions and calling them the truth.

Mikey has a PhD in Psychology, although he does not work in that
field. He tosses around his Omni PhD (tm) all the time to impress
people, as thought it imparts wisdom in every possible field of
interest. Most PhDs only use the title in a professional or academic
setting, but there are a few like Mikey who use it all the time to
treat others with disdain.

He is not interested in anyone else's qualifications, knowledge or
opinions, unless you agree 100% with him. He is a verbal bully, hiding
behind a keyboard.

Remember, what Mikey does is not for the environment as he claims, but
to build his ego. The more people who comment on what he says, the
more important he feels in his little internal game. Ultimately, he
accomplishes nothing.

You can pity him, you can pity the people who have to deal with him,
you can be amused by his automatic responses. But don't take him at
all seriously.

Happy trails,
Gary (net.yogi.bear)
--
At the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence

Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA
Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom

 

[Mike Vandeman]

On Mon, 02 May 2005 09:15:41 +0100, "Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email protected]>
wrote:

..On Mon, 02 May 2005 02:57:38 GMT, Mike Vandeman <[email protected]>
..wrote in message <[email protected]>:
..
..>.>.>You pretended to be able to read. Now you have proven that you CAN'T. QED
..>.>.Since this exchange could not have taken place without my being able
..>.>.to read it, clearly your "proof" above falls.
..>.>There is a difference between reading and understanding. When I said "read", i
..>.>Obviously included BOTH.
..>.But that was not what you said. You lose, sucker.
..>Most people understand that "read" includes "understand".
..
..Really? Most people, eh? What's your authority for that? Citations
..required. And while you're about it, since several of us have read
..the post in question and fail to discern what is supposed to be
..abusive.

Proving that you aren't honest enough to report abuse when it comes from your
fellow mountain bikers. BTW, look at his last sentence.

I note that you don't seem to have answered that question
..yet, although you have been pretty free with the abuse yourself,
..indicating that either abuse is not restricted to mountain bikers
..(i.e. the thread title is simple bigotry) or maybe you are a mountain
..biker yourself. Are you trying to tell us something here, I wonder?
..
..>.I said, and I quote: "It's about telling us what, precisely, in a post
..>.which seems to most of us a model of restraint, especially given your
..>.bigotry on the subject, is supposed to be abusive."
..>.I thought that was a fairly explicit question. You consider it
..>.abusive. Fine, tell us which part is abusive. As a subsidiary point,
..>.you have been noticeably abusive in this thread,
..
..>BS. I just tell the truth.
..
..As noted before, for certain, highly restrictive values of truth, and
..ignoring similar truth about other activities. Which is bigotry, just
..like the Klansman's "I just tell the truth about black people" is
..bigotry.
..
..But I notice that once again you have evaded the question. What,
..exactly, is supposed to be abusive in the original post?
..
..I can understand that you might consider a park ranger a typical
..mountain biker - concerned for the environment, loves being outdoors,
..knowledgeable about wildlife and so on.
..
..> which indicates that
..>.the behaviour of which you complain may not, in fact, be
..>.characteristic of mountain bikers at all, but be a general behaviour.
..>.Unless and until you can submit authoritative evidence that abuse is
..>.correlated with mountain biking and not with other activities, your
..>.hypothesis must be dismissed as simply another example of bigotry.
..
..>I never said it isn't associated with other activities. You FABRICATED that.
..
..Not at all. You have posted multiple threads over the years whose
..titles are designed to imply that abuse is a behaviour typical of
..mountain bikers.

Yes, it IS. That says NOTHING about other groups.

I believe abuse is typical of people responding to
..trolls, and is not correlated with mountain biking, which indicates
..that your generic "X from a typical mountain biker" thread title is
..simple bigotry.
..
..To relentlessly attack one activity based on attributes which are
..clearly shared with others, is bigotry. You need to show "relevant
..difference" and you have thus far failed to do so.
..
..>.The obvious solution here is a controlled experiment. I suggest the
..>.following methodology: Pick any recreational off-road driving,
..>.motorcycling, hiking or horse rising group; troll them for a period
..>.of, say, three months, with the frequency and single-mindedness you
..>.have displayed here; measure whether the level of supposed abuse
..>.matches that from trolling here; compare the "abuse" ratio. That
..>.should reveal whether mountain bikers are, as a group, unusually
..>.abusive compared to the general population.
..
..>Irrelevant. I just said that they are abusive, and you are more corroborating
..>evidence.
..
..But if the abusive behaviour is shared with other groups, i.e. is
..typical of Usenet readers when responding to trolls, then there is no
..relevant difference, and your statement is pure bigotry. I think that
..any impartial observer will find *far* more abuse in this thread from
..you than from me; that either means you are a typical mountain biker,
..or that abuse is not after all a behaviour distinctive of mountain
..bikers and you are a bigot.

That is a lie, and abuse.

Or maybe it just means you are trolling.
..
..>.After all, as a supposed scientist, you would not stoop to arguing by
..>.assertion, would you?
..
..>I never said that. I just said that mountain bikers are typically abusive, which
..>is a FACT.
..
..But as I said, you failed to demonstrate relevant difference. Where
..is your evidence that this is any more true of mountain bikers than of
..other groups?

Irrelevant.

I suggest you carry out the experiment above to test
..your hypothesis. Otherwise the statement should more accurately be
..that "people responding to persistent trolls are abusive" - which
..would hardly be a surprise.
..
..Guy

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

 

[Mike Vandeman]

On Mon, 02 May 2005 18:24:49 +0100, "Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email protected]>
wrote:

..On Mon, 02 May 2005 05:33:45 -0400, pmhilton <[email protected]> wrote
..in message <[email protected]>:
..
..>You are attempting rational discourse with an irrational being.
..
..Up to a point. Read the Vandeman FAQ and you'll find that it is
..possible to fight him and win. He's been argued into the ground a
..couple of times recently - either he's losing his touch or we're
..getting better
..
..Guy

People afraid to use their real names don't count. DUH!
===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

 

[Mike Vandeman]

On Sun, 1 May 2005 20:48:27 -0700, "GaryG" <[email protected]> wrote:

.."Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
..news:[email protected]...
..> On Sun, 01 May 2005 19:20:31 +0100, "Just zis Guy, you know?"
..<[email protected]>
..> wrote:
..>
..> .On Sun, 01 May 2005 15:24:15 GMT, Mike Vandeman <[email protected]>
..> .wrote in message <[email protected]>:
..> .
..> .>.>By yor logic, we should support robbery, because it's less harmful
..than murder.
..> .>.>Think a little!
..> ..
..> .>.Would that be like taking common cause with horse riders
..> .
..> .>I don't do that, liar. We just happen to agree that mountain biking is
..> .>destructive.
..> .
..> .Which explains why you posted a screed of self-congratulatory twaddle
..> .from horse-riders about having got mountain bikers barred in LA
..> .without mentioning that horse riders also cause damage?
..>
..> It's irrelevant to whether mountain bikers cause damage. Off the topic.
..>
..> Sorry, Mike,
..> .that won't wash.
..> .
..> .But it's a little bit deeper than that, isn't it? The email you
..> .posted here - obviously an email received direct from the horse-riders
..> .group - was sent to someone called "Mike". Mike who, I wonder? Is it
..> .just possible that the email was addressed to *you*? Because if it
..> .was it *strongly* indicates that you are taking common cause with
..> .them.
..>
..> Which means WHAT? I already said that we agree about mountain biking.
..>
..> Both the tone and the language are indicative of an ongoing and
..> .friendly relationship. Is it credible that this email would be sent
..> .to someone who was openly critical of the damage you acknowledge horse
..> .riding does to trails? I don't think so.
..>
..> I don't know how anyone can be so stupid. I have already said many tmes
..that the
..> mere PRESENCE of humans is harmful to wildlife.
..
..And, yet, you stated in this thread that you hike for pleasure...but, if
..your "mere PRESENCE" is harmful to wildlife, that means you are personally
..responsible for harming wildlife.
..
..How can you live with yourself, knowing that you are harming wildlife for
..your own selfish gratification?

Easy. I do a lot LESS damage than you do. DUH!

..GG
..
..>
..> .So there's a vital question you need to answer: who is the Mike of the
..> .original email?
..> .
..> .>.One thing's for sure: it's pretty much the opposite of lambasting
..> .>.people for taking a chainsaw to a downed tree but saying nothing
..> .>.against commercial logging because it is legal.
..> .
..> .>I don't do that, liar.
..> .
..> .Sorry, but here the evidence is conclusively against you.
..>
...<url:http://groups.google.co.uk/groups?group=rec.bicycles.soc&selm=lgr56194
..ble1ioii52ldc0910s2kg69043%404ax.com>
..>
..> "saying nothing against commercial logging because it is legal" is a LIE.
..I said
..> nothing because it's off-topic.
..>
..> .Guy
..>
..> ===
..> I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
..> humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
..> years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)
..>
..> http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
..

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

 

[Mike Vandeman]

On Mon, 02 May 2005 09:24:54 +0100, "Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email protected]>
wrote:

..On Mon, 02 May 2005 03:01:30 GMT, Mike Vandeman <[email protected]>
..wrote in message <[email protected]>:
..
..>.>.>By yor logic, we should support robbery, because it's less harmful than murder.
..>.>.>Think a little!
..
..>.>.Would that be like taking common cause with horse riders
..
..>.>I don't do that, liar. We just happen to agree that mountain biking is
..>.>destructive.
..
..>.Which explains why you posted a screed of self-congratulatory twaddle
..>.from horse-riders about having got mountain bikers barred in LA
..>.without mentioning that horse riders also cause damage?
..
..>It's irrelevant to whether mountain bikers cause damage. Off the topic.
..
..No, in order to justify years of trolling *exclusively* in mountain
..bike newsgroups, you *must* establish relevant difference. Otherwise
..it is simple bigotry.

Nope, just the TRUTH. Books about mathematics don't talk about chemistry, and
NOT from "bigotry". DUH!

..>.But it's a little bit deeper than that, isn't it? The email you
..>.posted here - obviously an email received direct from the horse-riders
..>.group - was sent to someone called "Mike". Mike who, I wonder? Is it
..>.just possible that the email was addressed to *you*? Because if it
..>.was it *strongly* indicates that you are taking common cause with
..>.them.
..
..>Which means WHAT? I already said that we agree about mountain biking.
..
..What it means, Mike, is that if that email was to you it indicates
..that, despite your denials, you *are* taking common cause with horse
..riders.

Nope, it just means that I received an email. DUH!

..> Both the tone and the language are indicative of an ongoing and
..>.friendly relationship. Is it credible that this email would be sent
..>.to someone who was openly critical of the damage you acknowledge horse
..>.riding does to trails? I don't think so.
..
..>I don't know how anyone can be so stupid. I have already said many tmes that the
..>mere PRESENCE of humans is harmful to wildlife.
..
..And yet you admit to hiking. You hypocrite!
..
..But I notice that you have not answered an important question: who is
..the Mike of the original email?

No idea.

..>.>.One thing's for sure: it's pretty much the opposite of lambasting
..>.>.people for taking a chainsaw to a downed tree but saying nothing
..>.>.against commercial logging because it is legal.
..
..>.>I don't do that, liar.
...
..>.Sorry, but here the evidence is conclusively against you.
..>.<url:http://groups.google.co.uk/groups?group=rec.bicycles.soc&selm=lgr56194ble1ioii52ldc0910s2kg69043%404ax.com>
..
..>"saying nothing against commercial logging because it is legal" is a LIE. I said
..>nothing because it's off-topic.
..
..So why did you not say it was off-topic? No, you said the relevant
..difference in that case was legality. You identified no other
..relevant difference.
..
..I might also point out that since the above is a legitimate
..interpretation of your statement, your use of the word "liar" amounts
..to abuse. You are just another typical mountain biker, I guess.
..
..Guy

Someone afraid to use his (or her) real name is obviously LYING, and doesn't
want to be exposed.
===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

 

[Mike Vandeman]

On Sun, 1 May 2005 20:43:00 -0700, "GaryG" <[email protected]> wrote:

.."Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
..news:[email protected]...
..> On Sun, 1 May 2005 14:52:22 -0700, "GaryG" <[email protected]>
..wrote:
..>
..> ."Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
..> .news:[email protected]...
..> .> On Sun, 1 May 2005 00:02:54 -0700, "GaryG" <[email protected]>
..> .wrote:
..> .>
..> .> ."Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
..> .> .news:[email protected]...
..> .> .> On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 12:14:25 -0700, "GaryG"
..<[email protected]>
..> .> .wrote:
..> .> .>
..> .> .> ."Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
..> .> .> .news:[email protected]...
..> .> .> .> On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 09:42:39 -0600, "Tim" <[email protected]> wrote:
..> .> .> .>
..> .> .> .> .
..> .> .> .> ."Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
..> .> .> .> .news:[email protected]...
..> .> .> .> .> X-Apparently-To: [email protected] via 206.190.37.176; Fri,
..29
..> .Apr
..> .> .> .2005
..> .> .> .> .> 20:43:34 -0700
..> .> .> .> .> Authentication-Results: mta824.mail.sc5.yahoo.com
..> .> .> .> .> from=sbcglobal.net; domainkeys=neutral (no sig)
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..> .> .> .> .> Return-Path: <[email protected]>
..> .> .> .> .> Received: from 207.115.57.49 (EHLO ylpvm18.prodigy.net)
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..> .> .> .> .> for <[email protected]>; Fri, 29 Apr 2005 23:43:03 -0400
..> .> .> .> .> Message-ID:
..<[email protected]>
..> .> .> .> .> Received: from [67.121.239.122] by web81605.mail.yahoo.com via
..> .HTTP;
..> .> .> .Fri,
..> .> .> .> .29 Apr
..> .> .> .> .> 2005 20:43:32 PDT
..> .> .> .> .> Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 20:43:32 -0700 (PDT)
..> .> .> .> .> From: ROBERT GRISAK <[email protected]>
..> .> .> .> .> Subject: Headbanging
..> .> .> .> .> To: [email protected]
..> .> .> .> .> MIME-Version: 1.0
..> .> .> .> .> Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
..> .> .> .> .boundary="0-1732291881-1114832612=:71467"
..> .> .> .> .>
..> .> .> .> .> Hey Doc, as a psychologist you are probably familiar with
..persons
..> .> .who
..> .> .> .> .> continuously bang their heads against hard objects and seek to
..> .take
..> .> .on
..> .> .> .> .windmills
..> .> .> .> .> ala Mr. Quixote. Kind of hard on the head and it really gets
..one
..> .> .> .nowhere.
..> .> .> .> .You
..> .> .> .> .> seem to be overly stressed out about some kids riding their
..bikes
..> .> .> .through
..> .> .> .> .a
..> .> .> .> .> park. Mountain bikes have been around for a long time and I
..> .suspect
..> .> .> .they
..> .> .> .> .will be
..> .> .> .> .> around for quite a while longer. Take horses for example.
..> .Horsemen's
..> .> .> .uses
..> .> .> .> .of
..> .> .> .> .> trails all over the country is quite acceptable and far more
..> .erosion
..> .> .> .> .causing
..> .> .> .> .> than a rubbered tired bike. So what's up with horses.... are
..they
..> .OK
..> .> .in
..> .> .> .> .your
..> .> .> .> .> world? If not, now it seem you have two problems to deal with.
..At
..> .> .Lake
..> .> .> .> .Oroville,
..> .> .> .> .> near where I live there are both horse trails and bike trails.
..> .They
..> .> .are
..> .> .> .> .called
..> .> .> .> .> multiple use trails. There are frequent downhill bike races as
..> .well
..> .> .as
..> .> .> .> .organized
..> .> .> .> .> horse-back events. Sometimes they even ride together! This has
..> .been
..> .> .> .going
..> .> .> .> .on
..> .> .> .> .> here for over twenty years. So what is the problem. The trails
..> .are
..> .> .> .> .beautifully
..> .> .> .> .> maintained and groomed. Hikers, bicyclists, and horsemen all
..> .> .> .participate
..> .> .> .> .in
..> .> .> .> .> helping manage this resource. I recall a date last spring when
..> .there
..> .> .> .was
..> .> .> .> .four
..> .> .> .> .> separate trail events on one day, simultaneously, at Lake
..> .Oroville.
..> .> .> .> .Everyone had
..> .> .> .> .> a good time. No problems. So, Doc, what is your problem? You
..need
..> .to
..> .> .> .take
..> .> .> .> .some
..> .> .> .> .> time off and check in with a trusted colleague in your
..profession
..> .> .and
..> .> .> .get
..> .> .> .> .to the
..> .> .> .> .> root of your angst. Is this really about protecting nature? I
..> .think
..> .> .you
..> .> .> .> .need to
..> .> .> .> .> relax and take a look at the big scheme of things. Mountain
..> .Bikers,
..> .> .> .> .horsemen,
..> .> .> .> .> cattle, and rubber tired machines are not going to go away. I
..> .think
..> .> .it
..> .> .> .> .best you
..> .> .> .> .> tried to meet your problems in a more balanced and rational
..way.
..> .> .Hike
..> .> .> .into
..> .> .> .> .the
..> .> .> .> .> wilderness and stay a long, long time.
..> .> .> .> .>
..> .> .> .> .> Bob Grisak
..> .> .> .> .> Park Ranger (retired)
..> .> .> .> .>
..> .> .> .> .> ===
..> .> .> .> .> I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits
..to
..> .> .> .> .> humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
..> .> .> .> .> years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)
..> .> .> .> .>
..> .> .> .> .> http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
..> .> .> .> .
..> .> .> .> .Care to point out what is abusive?. Please be specific.
..> .> .> .> .
..> .> .> .>
..> .> .> .> Learn to read.
..> .> .> .
..> .> .> .It was a legitimate question, Mikey, and you're an immature coward
..for
..> .> .not
..> .> .> .answering it.
..> .> .>
..> .> .> BS. You can answer your own question.
..> .> .
..> .> .Your repeated evasions are duly noted, Mikey.
..> .> .
..> .> .FWIW, we can't answer our own questions, because we've read Grizak's
..> .email,
..> .> .and don't see any "abuse" in it.
..> .>
..> .> That's exactly what I said: you refuse to recognize abuse from a fellow
..> .mountain
..> .> biker, even if it's as plain as the nose on your face.
..> .
..> .Another, more plausible explanation, is that you have a mental illness
..which
..> .causes you to see abuse where others do not.
..> .
..> .So far, everyone who has responded to this thread has failed to discern
..the
..> ."abuse" that you claim to see. Your repeated refusals to cite specific
..> .abusive passages from Grizak's email lends additional credence to this
..> .hypothesis (cognitive dissonance is a very powerful thing).
..> .
..> .AFAIK, no one from rec.backcountry, sci.environment, or ca.environment
..has
..> .chimed in claiming that Grizak's email to you was "abusive" in any way.
..> .Don't you think it odd that you are the only one to interpret his email
..as
..> ."abusive"?
..>
..> I just wanted to see if mountain bikers could be honest. Thanks for
..proving they
..> CAN'T. Look at Grizak's last sentence, for example.
..
..The last part of Grizak's email reads as follows:
..
.."I think you need to relax and take a look at the big scheme of things.
..Mountain Bikers, horsemen,
..cattle, and rubber tired machines are not going to go away. I think it best
..you
..tried to meet your problems in a more balanced and rational way. Hike into
..the
..wilderness and stay a long, long time."

I said "look at the last sentence". You can't even succeed in doing THAT simple
task!

..While it can be difficult to interpret subtleties of meaning in written
..communications, if you find this mild-mannered statement "abusive", it
..confirms that you have a very fragile and paranoid self-image. Clearly, you
..are the only one who sees "abuse" here.

You are lying, because you are afraid to admit your fellow mountain bikers are
abusive. You are all dishonest.

..Perhaps you could print Grizak's email and show it to someone close to you
..(friends or family), and ask them if they consider it "abuse". You may be
..surprised by their reaction. Please do this, and report the results back to
..us.
..
..GG
..
..>
..> .GG
..> .
..> .>
..> .> .GG
..> .> .
..> .> .>
..> .> .> .GG
..> .> .> .
..> .> .> .> ===
..> .> .> .> I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
..> .> .> .> humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
..> .> .> .> years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)
..> .> .> .>
..> .> .> .> http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
..> .> .> .
..> .> .>
..> .> .> ===
..> .> .> I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
..> .> .> humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
..> .> .> years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)
..> .> .>
..> .> .> http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
..> .> .
..> .>
..> .> ===
..> .> I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
..> .> humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
..> .> years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)
..> .>
..> .> http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
..> .
..>
..> ===
..> I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
..> humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
..> years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)
..>
..> http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
..

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

 

[Mike Vandeman]

On Sun, 1 May 2005 21:53:05 -0600, "Tim" <[email protected]> wrote:

..
.."Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
..news:[email protected]...
..> On Sun, 1 May 2005 14:52:22 -0700, "GaryG" <> .> .> .> .> relax and take a
..look at the big scheme of things. Mountain
..> .Bikers,
..> .> .> .> .horsemen,
..> .> .> .> .> cattle, and rubber tired machines are not going to go away. I
..> .think
..> .> .it
..> .> .> .> .best you
..> .> .> .> .> tried to meet your problems in a more balanced and rational
..way.
..> .> .Hike
..> .> .> .into
..> .> .> .> .the
..> .> .> .> .> wilderness and stay a long, long time.
..> .> .> .> .>
..> .> .> .> .> Bob Grisak
..> .> .> .> .> Park Ranger (retired)
..> .> .> .> .>
..> .> .> .> .> ===
..> .> .> .> .> I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits
..to
..> .> .> .> .> humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
..> .> .> .> .> years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)
..> .> .> .> .>
..> .> .> .> .> http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
..> .> .> .> .
..> .> .> .> .Care to point out what is abusive?. Please be specific.
..> .> .> .> .
..> .> .> .>
..> .> .> .> Learn to read.
..> .> .> .
..> .> .> .It was a legitimate question, Mikey, and you're an immature coward
..for
..> .> .not
..> .> .> .answering it.
..> .> .>
..> .> .> BS. You can answer your own question.
..> .> .
..> .> .Your repeated evasions are duly noted, Mikey.
..> .> .
..> .> .FWIW, we can't answer our own questions, because we've read Grizak's
..> .email,
..> .> .and don't see any "abuse" in it.
..> .>
..> .> That's exactly what I said: you refuse to recognize abuse from a fellow
..> .mountain
..> .> biker, even if it's as plain as the nose on your face.
..> .
..> .Another, more plausible explanation, is that you have a mental illness
..which
..> .causes you to see abuse where others do not.
..> .
..> .So far, everyone who has responded to this thread has failed to discern
..the
..> ."abuse" that you claim to see. Your repeated refusals to cite specific
..> .abusive passages from Grizak's email lends additional credence to this
..> .hypothesis (cognitive dissonance is a very powerful thing).
..> .
..> .AFAIK, no one from rec.backcountry, sci.environment, or ca.environment
..has
..> .chimed in claiming that Grizak's email to you was "abusive" in any way.
..> .Don't you think it odd that you are the only one to interpret his email
..as
..> ."abusive"?
..>
..> I just wanted to see if mountain bikers could be honest. Thanks for
..proving they
..> CAN'T. Look at Grizak's last sentence, for example.
..
..You silly man. That isn't abuse at all. Using that example, you abused me by
..telling me to learn to read, and by saying mountain bikers can't be honest.

It's true. You can't see abuse even when it's staring you in the face.

..Please stop abusing me Mike, or I shall tell on you! Or, you could keep
..going. It is pretty entertaining to read your rambles and rants.
..
..Has anybody here found anything in the original message stating that Mr
..Grizak is a mountain biker, or was this just an ASSumption on the part of
..usenet's version of a village idiot?

It's a FACT. Mountain bikers are all dishonest, judging from you guys.
===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

 

[Mike Vandeman]

On Mon, 02 May 2005 05:36:27 -0400, pmhilton <[email protected]> wrote:

..Tim wrote:
..
..> was this just an ASSumption on the part of
..>usenet's version of a village idiot?
..>
..>
..You are attempting rational discourse with an irrational being.

Hmmmm. Sounds like what YOU are doing.

..Pete H

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

 

[Mike Vandeman]

On Mon, 02 May 2005 23:51:52 +0200, BarryNL <[email protected]> wrote:

..Mike Vandeman wrote:
..> On Sun, 01 May 2005 17:33:01 +0200, BarryNL <[email protected]> wrote:
..>
..> .Mike Vandeman wrote:
..> .> On Sun, 01 May 2005 02:16:06 +0200, BarryNL <[email protected]> wrote:
..> .>
..> .> .di wrote:
..> .> .> "BarryNL" <[email protected]> wrote in message
..> .> .> news:[email protected]...
..> .> .>
..> .> .>
..> .> .>>Wierd, considering mountain bikes are probably responsible for less than a
..> .> .>>millionth of the damage to wildlife caused by fossil fuels or urban
..> .> .>>development, I wonder what his real reason for hating mountain bikers is.
..> .> .>
..> .> .>
..> .> .> He tried one and couldn't ride it, based on some the past stuff that's been
..> .> .> on this list. It's just a cause he can get involved in, most of the real
..> .> .> environmental groups have shunned him. But in reality he hates everything
..> .> .> involving humans.
..> .> .>
..> .> .
..> .> .Mmm, I guess so, because if he really thought it through he'd see that
..> .> .humans are as much part of nature as anything else and the idea of
..> .> .creating an environment free of humans is as much an artificial
..> .> .suppression of nature as everything he claims to be fighting against.
..> .>
..> .> Are zebra mussels a part of SF Bay? Is kudzu a part of Florida's ecosystem? Are
..> .> humans part of North America's ecosystems? Think a little.
..> .
..> .Why is a species propogated by humans any more unnatural than a flower
..> .using insects to carry its pollen? Try and see the bigger picture.
..>
..> Take Biology 101. You must have missed it.
..
..Thanks, but I already have a qualification in biology. I'd suggest a
..better idea is for you to study something like social science or
..psychology which will teach you critical thinking.

I have a Ph.D. in Psychology, so YOU must be the ignorant one.

..> ===
..> I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
..> humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
..> years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)
..>
..> http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

 

[Mike Vandeman]

On Mon, 02 May 2005 09:27:10 +0100, "Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email protected]>
wrote:

..On Mon, 02 May 2005 03:06:55 GMT, Mike Vandeman <[email protected]>
..wrote in message <[email protected]>:
..
..>Didn't you read the last sentence?
..
..The one where he suggested you might regain your perspective by doing
..the thing you claim to love best? I thought that was a very caring
..suggestion.

Liar.

..Should I sue my doctor because he suggested some long quiet walks in
..the country when I was suffering from depression?

Quite different. DUH!

..Guy

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

 

[Mike Vandeman]

On Mon, 2 May 2005 09:36:57 -0700, "Jeff Strickland" <[email protected]>
wrote:

..
.."Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
..news:[email protected]...
..> On Sun, 1 May 2005 10:27:35 -0700, "Jeff Strickland" <[email protected]>
..wrote:
..>
..> .
..> ."Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
..> .news:[email protected]...
..> .
..> .<snip a bunch of **** that M Vandeman should have snipped>
..> .> .
..> .> .You're being evasive again, Mikey.
..> .> .
..> .> .FWIW, I did read the letter from Park Ranger Grisak, but saw nothing
..in
..> .> his
..> .> .letter that sounded "abusive". Perhaps your emotional state is
..fragile
..> .> due
..> .> .to your obsessions, causing you to see "abuse" where others do not.
..> .> .
..> .> .Could you point out specific passages in Grisak's letter that you
..> .> interpret
..> .> .as "abusive"?
..> .>
..> .> It's obvious.
..> .>
..> .
..> .It's only obvious to you. Please tell us what is abusive.
..>
..> Didn't you read the last sentence? Oh, I forgot, it contains words with
..more
..> than one syl-la-ble.
..
..<quote>
..Hike into the wilderness and stay a long, long time.
..</quote>
..
..Two words with more than one syllable. Hardly a difficult sentence to
..understand. And, hardly an abuse. Idiot.

Proving that you didn't understand it.
===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

 

[GaryG]

"Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 2 May 2005 09:36:57 -0700, "Jeff Strickland"
<[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> .
> ."Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> .news:[email protected]...
> .> On Sun, 1 May 2005 10:27:35 -0700, "Jeff Strickland" <[email protected]>
> .wrote:
> .>
> .> .
> .> ."Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> .> .news:[email protected]...
> .> .
> .> .<snip a bunch of **** that M Vandeman should have snipped>
> .> .> .
> .> .> .You're being evasive again, Mikey.
> .> .> .
> .> .> .FWIW, I did read the letter from Park Ranger Grisak, but saw
nothing
> .in
> .> .> his
> .> .> .letter that sounded "abusive". Perhaps your emotional state is
> .fragile
> .> .> due
> .> .> .to your obsessions, causing you to see "abuse" where others do not.
> .> .> .
> .> .> .Could you point out specific passages in Grisak's letter that you
> .> .> interpret
> .> .> .as "abusive"?
> .> .>
> .> .> It's obvious.
> .> .>
> .> .
> .> .It's only obvious to you. Please tell us what is abusive.
> .>
> .> Didn't you read the last sentence? Oh, I forgot, it contains words with
> .more
> .> than one syl-la-ble.
> .
> .<quote>
> .Hike into the wilderness and stay a long, long time.
> .</quote>
> .
> .Two words with more than one syllable. Hardly a difficult sentence to
> .understand. And, hardly an abuse. Idiot.
>
> Proving that you didn't understand it.

Or, more plausibly, proving once again that your mental state is causing you
to detect "abuse" that nobody else can see.

GG

> ===
> I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
> humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
> years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)
>
> http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

 

[GaryG]

"Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 02 May 2005 23:51:52 +0200, BarryNL <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> .Mike Vandeman wrote:
> .> On Sun, 01 May 2005 17:33:01 +0200, BarryNL <[email protected]>
wrote:
> .>
> .> .Mike Vandeman wrote:
> .> .> On Sun, 01 May 2005 02:16:06 +0200, BarryNL <[email protected]>
wrote:
> .> .>
> .> .> .di wrote:
> .> .> .> "BarryNL" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> .> .> .> news:[email protected]...
> .> .> .>
> .> .> .>
> .> .> .>>Wierd, considering mountain bikes are probably responsible for
less than a
> .> .> .>>millionth of the damage to wildlife caused by fossil fuels or
urban
> .> .> .>>development, I wonder what his real reason for hating mountain
bikers is.
> .> .> .>
> .> .> .>
> .> .> .> He tried one and couldn't ride it, based on some the past stuff
that's been
> .> .> .> on this list. It's just a cause he can get involved in, most
of the real
> .> .> .> environmental groups have shunned him. But in reality he hates
everything
> .> .> .> involving humans.
> .> .> .>
> .> .> .
> .> .> .Mmm, I guess so, because if he really thought it through he'd see
that
> .> .> .humans are as much part of nature as anything else and the idea of
> .> .> .creating an environment free of humans is as much an artificial
> .> .> .suppression of nature as everything he claims to be fighting
against.
> .> .>
> .> .> Are zebra mussels a part of SF Bay? Is kudzu a part of Florida's
ecosystem? Are
> .> .> humans part of North America's ecosystems? Think a little.
> .> .
> .> .Why is a species propogated by humans any more unnatural than a flower
> .> .using insects to carry its pollen? Try and see the bigger picture.
> .>
> .> Take Biology 101. You must have missed it.
> .
> .Thanks, but I already have a qualification in biology. I'd suggest a
> .better idea is for you to study something like social science or
> .psychology which will teach you critical thinking.
>
> I have a Ph.D. in Psychology, so YOU must be the ignorant one.

Gee...that sounds somewhat "abusive", don't you think?

GG

>
> .> ===
> .> I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
> .> humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
> .> years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)
> .>
> .> http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
>
> ===
> I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
> humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
> years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)
>
> http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

 

[GaryG]

"Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sun, 1 May 2005 20:43:00 -0700, "GaryG" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> .>
> .> I just wanted to see if mountain bikers could be honest. Thanks for
> .proving they
> .> CAN'T. Look at Grizak's last sentence, for example.
> .
> .The last part of Grizak's email reads as follows:
> .
> ."I think you need to relax and take a look at the big scheme of things.
> .Mountain Bikers, horsemen,
> .cattle, and rubber tired machines are not going to go away. I think it
best
> .you
> .tried to meet your problems in a more balanced and rational way. Hike
into
> .the
> .wilderness and stay a long, long time."
>
> I said "look at the last sentence". You can't even succeed in doing THAT
simple
> task!

This is very instructive as to your mental state, Mike. I posted the last
few sentences so that the last one could be viewed in the proper context.
You, however, seem to focus only on the last sentence, ignoring the context
in which it was delivered, and thereby seeing the "abuse" that seems to be a
constant theme in your life. Is it possible that you need "abuse" to feel
that your life has some meaning?

Truly, you are the only one here that sees "abuse" in that letter. Have you
shown Grizak's letter to any of your friends and family, and discussed your
feelings with them? It might help you to do so.

GG

> .While it can be difficult to interpret subtleties of meaning in written
> .communications, if you find this mild-mannered statement "abusive", it
> .confirms that you have a very fragile and paranoid self-image. Clearly,
you
> .are the only one who sees "abuse" here.
>
> You are lying, because you are afraid to admit your fellow mountain bikers
are
> abusive. You are all dishonest.
>
> .Perhaps you could print Grizak's email and show it to someone close to
you
> .(friends or family), and ask them if they consider it "abuse". You may
be
> .surprised by their reaction. Please do this, and report the results back
to
> .us.
> .
> .GG
> .

 

[Gary S.]

On Tue, 03 May 2005 14:49:59 GMT, Mike Vandeman <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On Mon, 02 May 2005 18:24:49 +0100, "Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>
>.On Mon, 02 May 2005 05:33:45 -0400, pmhilton <[email protected]> wrote
>.in message <[email protected]>:
>.
>.>You are attempting rational discourse with an irrational being.
>.
>.Up to a point. Read the Vandeman FAQ and you'll find that it is
>.possible to fight him and win. He's been argued into the ground a
>.couple of times recently - either he's losing his touch or we're
>.getting better
>.
>.Guy
>
>People afraid to use their real names don't count. DUH!
>===
Like every single one of your alleged supporters.

You cannot use every nasty tactic you accuse others of, and then claim
to be better than everyone who disagress with you. It is completely
understandable that many people would not want a person like you to
have access to their personal information, as you have a documented
history of trying to get people fired from their jobs for the crime of
disagreeing with you.

That IS the reason that the Sierra Club National Board of Directors
permanently removed you from all SC leadership positions, elected or
appointed, for "Breach of Leadership Trust". They also considered, but
chose not to, revoking your SC membership.

Happy trails,
Gary (net.yogi.bear)
--
At the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence

Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA
Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom

 

[Gary S.]

On Tue, 03 May 2005 14:53:58 GMT, Mike Vandeman <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On Mon, 02 May 2005 09:24:54 +0100, "Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>
>.No, in order to justify years of trolling *exclusively* in mountain
>.bike newsgroups, you *must* establish relevant difference. Otherwise
>.it is simple bigotry.
>
>Nope, just the TRUTH. Books about mathematics don't talk about chemistry, and
>NOT from "bigotry". DUH!
>
Books about chemistry DO talk about physics, because the two subjects
are interrelated. To talk about chemistry without involving physics is
foolish.

With your Omni PhD (tm), of course you know everything there is to
know about both of these topics. I eagerly await the announcement of
the Vandeman Unified Field Theory, and the Vandeman Process for
converting radioactive waste into gold.

Happy trails,
Gary (net.yogi.bear)
--
At the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence

Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA
Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom