More gears needed: XT rear derailleur or Dura Ace upgrade to triple?

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by Shelley, Jan 25, 2003.

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  1. Shelley

    Shelley Guest

    Hello:

    I have a 2 year old Dean with Dura Ace drivetrain. I have maxed out to the 27 tooth 9 speed
    cassette. I ride a lot of hilly and mountainous rides. The cost of a Dura Ace triple upgrade is very
    high, $639 in parts alone from Excel.

    I was told that you could switch to an XT or XTR rear derailleur, get a 9 speed cassette with a
    wider range (up to 32 or 34)and get most of the bang of a triple for a lot less bucks. Has anyone
    tried this? If so, what can you report about your results?

    Thanks
     
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  2. Cy Galley

    Cy Galley Guest

    I have always had a double. BUT the small ring is a 38 tooth and my free wheel ranged from 13 to 30.
    This works very well. I recently purchased a set of Shimano 7700 wheels that had a 9 speed 12 -34
    cassette. My SunTour 7 speed accushift worked very well for shifting the 2nd thru 8th sprocket. Got
    a Shimano 9 speed DT and was able to use 1-8 which but I still I couldn't use the 34 tooth as the
    Suntour GPX rear derailleur had a short cage. I finally lengthen the chain and went to a Shimano XT
    long cage so that I can finally use the 34 tooth. The 38-30 worked ok but I really had to work a bit
    on some steep hills but I seldom stand going up a hill. As I approach 70 years of age, I have a
    feeling that the 34 tooth will get used more.

    I suppose if I was touring with a large load, I would go for the heavier triple but I think I'll
    stick with the lighter double.
    --

    Cy Galley - Webmaster www.qcbc.org

    "Shelley" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Hello:
    >
    > I have a 2 year old Dean with Dura Ace drivetrain. I have maxed out to the 27 tooth 9 speed
    > cassette. I ride a lot of hilly and mountainous rides. The cost of a Dura Ace triple upgrade is
    > very high, $639 in parts alone from Excel.
    >
    > I was told that you could switch to an XT or XTR rear derailleur, get a 9 speed cassette with a
    > wider range (up to 32 or 34)and get most of the bang of a triple for a lot less bucks. Has anyone
    > tried this? If so, what can you report about your results?
    >
    > Thanks
     
  3. Shelley wrote:

    > I have a 2 year old Dean with Dura Ace drivetrain. I have maxed out to the 27 tooth 9 speed
    > cassette. I ride a lot of hilly and mountainous rides. The cost of a Dura Ace triple upgrade is
    > very high, $639 in parts alone from Excel.

    Actually, Shimano road derailers will handle up to a 30 in back, with a standard double in front. A
    lot of people like my special 13-30 "Century Special" cassette for this sort of application.

    > I was told that you could switch to an XT or XTR rear derailleur, get a 9 speed cassette with a
    > wider range (up to 32 or 34)and get most of the bang of a triple for a lot less bucks. Has anyone
    > tried this? If so, what can you report about your results?

    That's true, lots of folks do this. I do a couple of special touring cassettes in 13-34 and 14-34.

    See: http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/k7.html#9

    Sheldon "If You Do Go To A Triple, Get Ultegra, Not Dura-Ace" Brown
    +-------------------------------------------------------+
    | Discovery consists in seeing what everyone else has | seen and thinking what no one else has
    | thought. |
    | - Albert Szent-Gyorgi |
    +-------------------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
    Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
    http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com
     
  4. On Sat, 25 Jan 2003 16:39:53 -0500, Shelley wrote:

    > Hello:
    >
    > I have a 2 year old Dean with Dura Ace drivetrain. I have maxed out to the 27 tooth 9 speed
    > cassette. I ride a lot of hilly and mountainous rides. The cost of a Dura Ace triple upgrade is
    > very high, $639 in parts alone from Excel.

    What? That is outrageous. Look, the difference between a "Dura-Ace" crankset and a bunch of others
    is minimal. Get something reasonable. All you will need is a new crankset. Maybe a triple is a
    good idea.
    >
    > I was told that you could switch to an XT or XTR rear derailleur, get a 9 speed cassette with a
    > wider range (up to 32 or 34)and get most of the bang of a triple for a lot less bucks. Has anyone
    > tried this? If so, what can you report about your results?

    That change will get you some advantage, but instead of a 39 x 32 or 34 low gear, consider what you
    get with a triple: A 30x27.  This is lower, plus you do not sacrifice the close ratios you have now.
    Going from 12 to 32 in a cassette means a lot of jumps.

    You will only need to replace the cranks, and the rear derailleur. Your Dura-Ace STI should (???)
    shift the triple fine (right, folks?), and you get lots more gears, and no lost ratios.

    --

    David L. Johnson

    __o | "What am I on? I'm on my bike, six hours a day, busting my ass. _`\(,_ | What are you on?"
    --Lance Armstrong (_)/ (_) |
     
  5. Bruce

    Bruce Guest

    I do exactly that for touring. I start with a 50-38, 12-27 and switch to a 12-34 cluster with a long
    cage rear mech, both at the XT quality level (but you can spend more for the XTR goods). All the
    gear jumps are evenly spaced, and the 38-34 is low enough for me to tour.

    The jumps are 12-14-16-18-21-24-28-30-34, so the only small jumps you miss are the one-tooth jumps.
    The biggest jump is 14/12 = 28/24 = a sixth, 70 versus 60 rpm.

    Since the front brifter won't handle a triple it's much cheaper to just change the rear cogs and
    mech. Plus you don't have to put on a longer BB spindle which widens you pedal space = Q-factor.

    -Bruce

    "Shelley" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Hello:
    >
    > I have a 2 year old Dean with Dura Ace drivetrain. I have maxed out to the 27 tooth 9 speed
    > cassette. I ride a lot of hilly and mountainous rides. The cost of a Dura Ace triple upgrade is
    > very high, $639 in parts alone from Excel.
    >
    > I was told that you could switch to an XT or XTR rear derailleur, get a 9 speed cassette with a
    > wider range (up to 32 or 34)and get most of the bang of a triple for a lot less bucks. Has anyone
    > tried this? If so, what can you report about your results?
    >
    > Thanks
     
  6. bobqzzi

    bobqzzi Guest

    On 25 Jan 2003 13:39:53 -0800, [email protected] (Shelley) wrote:

    >Hello:
    >
    >I have a 2 year old Dean with Dura Ace drivetrain. I have maxed out to the 27 tooth 9 speed
    >cassette. I ride a lot of hilly and mountainous rides. The cost of a Dura Ace triple upgrade is
    >very high, $639 in parts alone from Excel.
    >
    >I was told that you could switch to an XT or XTR rear derailleur, get a 9 speed cassette with a
    >wider range (up to 32 or 34)and get most of the bang of a triple for a lot less bucks. Has anyone
    >tried this? If so, what can you report about your results?
    >
    >Thanks

    I'm going to suggest going to a triple, but not a standard road triple which comes with
    52/42/-38/30 gears. As you've noted the D/A is prohibitively priced, and the Ultegra gives the same
    very silly gearing.

    I would install an XTR crankset. Up until last year they were available in a 5 arm version 100/74
    bolt circle with 48/36/26 rings. (I'm sure you can still get these.) I would then install a 12-25 or
    12-23 cassette, which would give you ample high and low gears, excellent close spacing, and
    generally better front shifting than the road stuff. You can use your D/A bottom bracket, and rear
    derailer, but will need to buy an RSX front derailer. (Sheldon has these).

    Going the big cassette and double route will work, but the gaps can be annoying.

    Good luck,

    Bob
     
  7. Paul Kopit

    Paul Kopit Guest

    I set up several bicycle this way. I used an XT rear derailleur. The available cassette is a 11/32.
    In my opinion, if you need the 32, you won't get much out of an 11. Put a 12/13 on from another
    cassette. I consider the best to be a 12/27 cassette. The 12 and 13 pulled and replaced by a 9sp 13T
    end cog or a 8sp 13t. Sheldon Brown the end cogs and the 32s as well. He also makes 13/30 as a
    regular offer item and would likely make it 13/32 for you. You'll loose little from the
    12/27 you now have and have a big gear. You're trading a 12 for a 32. On a 700c wheel you go from
    38.3 down to 32.3", 14%.

    It will cost more than the 11/32 or 12/32 for a 13/27. Should you need, I happen to have the all the
    parts required to do the dastardly deed. Sheldon will have a wider selection and is more experienced
    than I with Shimano stuff. i.e. the Ultegra triple may be a better choice.

    On 25 Jan 2003 13:39:53 -0800, [email protected] (Shelley) wrote:

    >I was told that you could switch to an XT or XTR rear derailleur, get a 9 speed cassette with a
    >wider range (up to 32 or 34)and get most of the bang of a triple for a lot less bucks. Has anyone
    >tried this? If so, what can you report about your results?
     
  8. Paul Kopit

    Paul Kopit Guest

    34/30 is the same as 30/27. If you find a 110 bolt crankset and 46/34 rings, you can be a double.
    Cassette is a 12/27 minus the 14 and plus the 30. You may be happy with the 12/27 as is. The
    derailleur capacity needed is 30 and a regular cage derailleur may work fine. When you aren't in
    the Mtns, you put a 12/23 or12/25 cassette on.

    This is not as slick as a triple but you won't have to agonize about using the granny like many
    triple users and front shifting is better on a double than on a triple.

    I just built up such a system and plan on using a 12/23 on most rides,
    35/25 on long rides with hills, and 12/27 when there is long, steep or touring. Last year I tried
    13/32 with 53/39. My Campy rear derailleur was at its limit. The newer, Centaur would work fine
    for sure. My tandem is 52/42/28 with 13/32 and now shifts great.

    On Sat, 25 Jan 2003 19:52:10 -0500, "David L. Johnson" <David L. Johnson
    <[email protected]>> wrote:

    >On Sat, 25 Jan 2003 16:39:53 -0500, Shelley wrote:
    >
    >> Hello:
    >>
    >> I have a 2 year old Dean with Dura Ace drivetrain. I have maxed out to the 27 tooth 9 speed
    >> cassette. I ride a lot of hilly and mountainous rides. The cost of a Dura Ace triple upgrade is
    >> very high, $639 in parts alone from Excel.
    >
    >What? That is outrageous. Look, the difference between a "Dura-Ace" crankset and a bunch of others
    >is minimal. Get something reasonable. All you will need is a new crankset. Maybe a triple is a
    >good idea.
    >>
    >> I was told that you could switch to an XT or XTR rear derailleur, get a 9 speed cassette with a
    >> wider range (up to 32 or 34)and get most of the bang of a triple for a lot less bucks. Has anyone
    >> tried this? If so, what can you report about your results?
    >
    >That change will get you some advantage, but instead of a 39 x 32 or 34 low gear, consider what you
    >get with a triple: A 30x27.  This is lower, plus you do not sacrifice the close ratios you have
    >now. Going from 12 to 32 in a cassette means a lot of jumps.
    >
    >You will only need to replace the cranks, and the rear derailleur. Your Dura-Ace STI should (???)
    >shift the triple fine (right, folks?), and you get lots more gears, and no lost ratios.
     
  9. sirothe-<< I have a 2 year old Dean with Dura Ace drivetrain. I have maxed out to the 27 tooth 9
    speed cassette. I ride a lot of hilly and mountainous rides. The cost of a Dura Ace triple upgrade
    is very high

    << I was told that you could switch to an XT or XTR rear derailleur, get a 9 speed cassette with a
    wider range (up to 32 or 34)and get most of the bang of a triple for a lot less bucks. Has anyone
    tried this?

    yessir-can do this w/o problem. Works great, just ensure the chain length is 'proper' that is, it
    will look a little short in small/small but you will still have enough chain for big/big...

    If you get a XTR, DON'T get the 'rapidrise'(backfire plus?) rder-which is gonna be standard in 2003.

    Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
    (303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
     
  10. david-<< The cost of a Dura Ace triple upgrade is very high, $639 in parts
    > alone from Excel.

    What? That is outrageous.

    << Look, the difference between a "Dura-Ace" crankset and a bunch of others is minimal. Get
    something reasonable. All you will need is a new crankset.

    If the gent has a double DA, to make it a triple will require more than a crankset. Left lever,
    crank/BB, fder, minimum...DA triple upgrade IS expensive and unfortunastely an ultegra fder is not
    compatible with the DA triple left lever.

    << You will only need to replace the cranks, and the rear derailleur. Your Dura-Ace STI should (???)
    shift the triple fine (right, folks?),

    errrrrrr-thank you for playing...DA front STI is double OR triple, not both ala ultegra(what was
    shimano thinkin'???)

    Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
    (303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
     
  11. bob-<< I would install an XTR crankset. << Up until last year they were available in a 5 arm version
    100/74 bolt circle with 48/36/26 rings.

    Yowser, these are about the same as DA cranks and you 'may' be able to use the DA BB but may
    not(probably not-112/6mm and different symmetry)

    << but will need to buy an RSX front derailer.

    Not compatible with DA lfet shifter is the company l9ine but I would try it as well...still needs a
    left triple shifter tho-

    Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
    (303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
     
  12. Per Löwdin

    Per Löwdin Guest

  13. bobqzzi

    bobqzzi Guest

    On 26 Jan 2003 15:15:28 GMT, [email protected] (Qui si parla Campagnolo) wrote:

    >bob-<< I would install an XTR crankset. << Up until last year they were available in a 5 arm
    >version 100/74 bolt circle with 48/36/26 rings.
    >
    >Yowser, these are about the same as DA cranks and you 'may' be able to use the DA BB but may
    >not(probably not-112/6mm and different symmetry)
    I've done this on several bikes and never had a problem.
    ><< but will need to buy an RSX front derailer.
    >
    >Not compatible with DA lfet shifter is the company l9ine but I would try it as well...still needs a
    >left triple shifter tho-

    Really? I thought all road STI shifters pull the same, but I certainly could be wrong. You're right,
    he will need a triple shofter anyway. (I use a Record w/ my XTR)
    >
    >Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
    >(303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
     
  14. Saltytri

    Saltytri Guest

    Here's the setup on one of my bikes:

    1) DA double cranks on the front with 51-38 TA Specialties Hegoa chainrings (available from
    Peter White)

    2) XTR mid-cage rear derailleur

    3) Chain length was determined using a 32 tooth rear cog

    4) lowest geared cogset is 13-32, using an XT 11-32 with the 11 and 12 removed and a 13 top and a
    15 added, giving a range of 13-14-15-16-18-21-24-28-32

    5) a 12-27 or 12-25 works fine for less hilly rides, without changing the chain

    The 13-32 allows a low gear almost as low as a triple with a 30 on the front and a 27 on the rear.
    It shifts very nicely. The 12 won't likely be missed unless you want to drive hard on descents. For
    an even lower gear, use a long cage XTR (or XT) rear with a 13-34 made up from an LX or XT 11-34
    (remove the 11 and the 13 and add a 13 top and a 14) (the XT cassette is a lot lighter than the LX,
    if you care)

    There's bound to be a grouchy young stud out there who thinks that it is unacceptable to have an XTR
    rear derailleur on a road bike. You can point out that it weighs only slightly more than a DA double
    rear derailleur and works just as well with the DA double shifter.

    Branford Bikes (branfordbike.com) has the Ultegra replacement cogs that you need at good prices. The
    LBS may be able to order them as well.

    The moral of the story is that you don't need to do what Shimano wants you to do if it doesn't suit
    you. Yes, I have a full DA double bike with slightly smaller gears and can ride it up all the local
    hills but at this time of year, a guy in his fifties needs to get out and spin instead of straining
    the old knees in the cold weather.
     
  15. Belij3

    Belij3 Guest

    >If you get a XTR, DON'T get the 'rapidrise'(backfire plus?)

    Why? I have a 953 that I was going to put on my son's bike. I realize the shifters will shift
    backwards, but is there another problem? B
     
  16. On Sat, 25 Jan 2003 16:39:53 -0500, Shelley wrote:

    > Hello:
    >
    > I have a 2 year old Dean with Dura Ace drivetrain. I have maxed out to the 27 tooth 9 speed
    > cassette. I ride a lot of hilly and mountainous rides. The cost of a Dura Ace triple upgrade is
    > very high, $639 in parts alone from Excel.

    If you're into brifters you have to upgrade the left one. Beyond that, you need another crankset and
    probably a bottom bracket, and a front derailleur capable of handling a triple. That could set you
    back a bit, but you could do it for a whole lot less than $639 in parts if you don't insist on a
    DuraAce triple. In fact, even with the extremely expensive DA triple crankset, it's kind of hard to
    see where you could find a way to spend that much in parts.

    > I was told that you could switch to an XT or XTR rear derailleur, get a 9 speed cassette with a
    > wider range (up to 32 or 34)and get most of the bang of a triple for a lot less bucks. Has anyone
    > tried this? If so, what can you report about your results?

    You can. XT rear mechs are totally compatible with all road Shimano indexing shifters, and they can
    handle a 34T rear. What's more, with the exception of cassettes with 11T small rear rings, you can
    use any Shimano cassette on any Shimano hub. With a 39T inner chainring, a 34T rear will give you a
    30" low gear, which is pretty much what most people with "road triples" have as a low.

    Check it out for yourself. <http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gears/>

    Of course, if a 30" low isn't sufficient, you really do need to go to a triple. But if you do, get
    something other than the DA. It's way too much money, it locks you into Shimano chain rings, and as
    triples go its choice of available ratios is suboptimal.

    Compare what you can do with a DA triple with what you can do with a TA Zephyr. My long distance
    bike's got a 24/36/48 front and one of Sheldon Brown's custom Century Special 13-30 cassettes. I go
    down to about 30" on the middle ring, and down to about 21" on the granny.
     
  17. On Sat, 25 Jan 2003 19:52:10 -0500, David L. Johnson <David L. Johnson wrote:

    > That change will get you some advantage, but instead of a 39 x 32 or 34 low gear, consider what
    > you get with a triple: A 30x27.  This is lower, plus you do not sacrifice the close ratios you
    > have now. Going from 12 to 32 in a cassette means a lot of jumps.

    Even with a 130/74 BCD triple such as the Ultegra you can do a lot better than a 30T granny. The
    74mm will accept a granny as small as 24T. The only reason they put 30s on there is so that if some
    idiot shifts into the small front small rear, the chain won't hang so slack that it will fall off,
    prompting a law suit - in other words, the gearing equivalent of lawyer lips. If you're smart enough
    to be converting a bike to a triple in order to get low gears, you're certainly smart enough to only
    use the granny for the 3 largest rear rings - that way, you won't strain the chain wrap capacity of
    any derailleur.

    As for rear cassettes - I am using Sheldon's Century Special 13-30. The first 3 are 1T apart; the
    next 3 are 2T apart, the final 3 are 3T apart. The jumps between gears are small where you want them
    small, and progressively get larger as you move down the block - which is what I want.
     
  18. Robin Hubert

    Robin Hubert Guest

    "Steve Palincsar" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > On Sat, 25 Jan 2003 19:52:10 -0500, David L. Johnson <David L. Johnson wrote:
    >
    >
    > > That change will get you some advantage, but instead of a 39 x 32 or 34 low gear, consider what
    > > you get with a triple: A 30x27. This is lower, plus you do not sacrifice the close ratios you
    > > have now. Going from 12 to 32 in a cassette means a lot of jumps.
    >
    >
    > Even with a 130/74 BCD triple such as the Ultegra you can do a lot better than a 30T granny. The
    > 74mm will accept a granny as small as 24T. The only reason they put 30s on there is so that if
    > some idiot shifts into the small front small rear, the chain won't hang so slack that it will fall
    > off, prompting a law suit - in other words, the gearing equivalent of lawyer lips. If you're smart
    > enough to be converting a bike to a triple in order to get low gears, you're certainly smart
    > enough to only use the granny for the 3 largest rear rings - that way, you won't strain the chain
    > wrap capacity of any derailleur.

    Besides that, you gotta worry about the front derailer capacity, which is
    22T. Of course you can stretch that somewhat, but going to a 24t wouldn't be ideal, unless you were
    willing to drop your large CR down to 46 or 48T.

    >
    > As for rear cassettes - I am using Sheldon's Century Special 13-30. The first 3 are 1T apart; the
    > next 3 are 2T apart, the final 3 are 3T apart. The jumps between gears are small where you want
    > them small, and progressively get larger as you move down the block - which is what I want.
     
  19. Steve Palincsar wrote:
    >
    >
    > If you're into brifters you have to upgrade the left one. Beyond that, you need another crankset
    > and probably a bottom bracket, and a front derailleur capable of handling a triple. That could set
    > you back a bit, but you could do it for a whole lot less than $639 in parts if you don't insist on
    > a DuraAce triple. In fact, even with the extremely expensive DA triple crankset, it's kind of hard
    > to see where you could find a way to spend that much in parts.

    The DA triple crankset consists of a double crankset with a middle ring with extended ears to mount
    the granny to. You can keep the cranks, just change the smaller chainring and the axle. This
    solution is also offered by Stronglight and TA, but not at this pricelevel ;)

    --
    Marten
     
  20. Mark Boyd

    Mark Boyd Guest

    On Sun, 26 Jan 2003, Belij3 wrote:

    > >If you get a XTR, DON'T get the 'rapidrise'(backfire plus?)
    >
    > Why? I have a 953 that I was going to put on my son's bike. I realize the shifters will shift
    > backwards, but is there another problem? B
    >

    I've been using one, an XTR, on my touring bike for four year. It works fine, just as well as the
    regular XTR rear derailleur on my road bike.

    Mark <http://www.cs.unca.edu/~boyd/bicycling.html
     
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