More gears needed: XT rear derailleur or Dura Ace upgrade to triple?



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Steve Palincsar wrote:

>>If you're into brifters you have to upgrade the left one. Beyond that, you need another crankset
>>and probably a bottom bracket, and a front derailleur capable of handling a triple. That could set
>>you back a bit, but you could do it for a whole lot less than $639 in parts if you don't insist on
>>a DuraAce triple. In fact, even with the extremely expensive DA triple crankset, it's kind of hard
>>to see where you could find a way to spend that much in parts.

A usually reliable source suggested:

> The DA triple crankset consists of a double crankset with a middle ring with extended ears to
> mount the granny to. You can keep the cranks, just change the smaller chainring and the axle. This
> solution is also offered by Stronglight and TA, but not at this pricelevel ;)

That's what I thought the first time I saw the Dura-Ace triple. Unfortunately, it's not as
simple as that.

Although the special middle ring does mount on the standard "road" 130 mm bolt circle, the way the
chainring is constructed, it won't fit on a normal double crank.

Normal cranks feature "shelves" on the inside and outside of each spider arm that fit up against the
inner circumference of a standard chainring.

Conversion chainrings such as the TA and the $40 Willow unit are designed to clear this shelf, but
the Dura-Ace triple 39 has no such clearance. The special version of the Dura-Ace right crank
designed to work as a triple has no shelf on the inner faces of the spider arms.

It is possible to mount one of these rings on a standard crank, but only if you file away the
shelves on each of the 5 arms. Not many people will want to do heavy-duty filing on their
Dura-Ace cranks!

Another issue with the Dura-Ace triple is that, unlike the similar products from TA and Willow, it
does not use the standard 74 mm bolt circle for the small chainring. Instead, it uses a uniqe 92 mm
bolt circle, so there are no alternatives to the stock 30 tooth chainring!

I reiterate my recommendation of the Ultegra triple instead.

Sheldon "Most Expensive Isn't Always Best" Brown +-------------------------------------------+
| Genius may have its limitations, | but stupidity is not thus handicapped. | --Elbert Hubbard |
+-------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts Phone
617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com
 
On Sun, 26 Jan 2003 18:17:44 -0500, Sheldon Brown wrote:

> reiterate my recommendation of the Ultegra triple instead.
>
> Sheldon "Most Expensive Isn't Always Best" Brown

Or, if you're looking to spend a little and want something useful in the DA quality class, let me
speak out on behalf of the TA Zephyr. This
110/74 crankset is lovely to behold, and you can create just about any gearing you can think up with
it. If a 24T granny's not small enough, there's another, smaller bolt circle that will let you
get down to 20T.

Believe me, the Zephyr puts the DA to shame in the looks department as well as in the versatility
department. For more info on the Zephyr, <http://peterwhitecycles.com/Zephyr.asp> see Peter White's
page about them.

Or, for a whole lot less money, consider the Sugino XD300 or XD500 cranksets. Sheldon's too modest
to mention them, but he sells them.
 
A friend of mine have done this two different ways for trips into the mountains. Dolomites / Gran
Fondo, Blue Ridge Parkway. We both have Dura Ace 39-53 fronts. I used an Ultegra long cage (triple)
rear derailleur with SRAM 11-32. I can change the derailleur and cassette mid trip in about 10-15
minutes tops. My friend opted for a XT derailleur and a ??-34. If your not doing loaded touring it
probably gives you all you need. I think I made the better cassette choice with the 32 but I would
do the XT derailleur next time. The Ultegra is at its limit at 32. If you set it the chain up for
the 32 it is still serviceable for the 27. I normally use a 23 so I did my chain with an extra
length of chain and a second SRAM master link so it was very easy to convert back and forth. If you
don't change the derailleur around you can use the XT for everything. Bill Brannon

"Shelley" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hello:
>
> I have a 2 year old Dean with Dura Ace drivetrain. I have maxed out to the 27 tooth 9 speed
> cassette. I ride a lot of hilly and mountainous rides. The cost of a Dura Ace triple upgrade is
> very high, $639 in parts alone from Excel.
>
> I was told that you could switch to an XT or XTR rear derailleur, get a 9 speed cassette with a
> wider range (up to 32 or 34)and get most of the bang of a triple for a lot less bucks. Has anyone
> tried this? If so, what can you report about your results?
>
> Thanks
 
On 25 Jan 2003, Shelley wrote:

>Hello:
>
>I have a 2 year old Dean with Dura Ace drivetrain. I have maxed out to the 27 tooth 9 speed
>cassette. I ride a lot of hilly and mountainous rides. The cost of a Dura Ace triple upgrade is
>very high, $639 in parts alone from Excel.
>
>I was told that you could switch to an XT or XTR rear derailleur, get a 9 speed cassette with a
>wider range (up to 32 or 34)and get most of the bang of a triple for a lot less bucks. Has anyone
>tried this? If so, what can you report about your results?

I replaced the 105 rear derailleur on my Wife's Cannondale with an 2002 9 speed
XT. For now, all she has on the back is a 12-27, but I now can put an XT or XTR cassette up to 34
as long as I get a new chain. All I needed to do other than swap the rear der was to get a new
cable. The swap took all of 20 minutes to make.

The 105 is rated at 27t, but I was already dissatisfied with it's performance on a 12-25. I don't
see how you make them work with a 30 in the back, but maybe some people are better wrenches than me.

So peruse eBay, get yourself an XT or XTR cassette and derailleur. Stay away from 2003 XTR as they
shift 'backwards'. So, all you'll need is
- New cable.
- XT or XTR derailleur
- Cassette , like the 11-24.

A friend had them pull the Ultegra off the back of her brand new CAAD5 Cannondale and replace it
with an XTR combo. Nothing else on the bike needed touching. Now she can ride it up a wall if she
wants to. ;-)

From: John B. Rees [email protected] http://www.jrees.net/
 
> Sheldon "If You Do Go To A Triple, Get Ultegra, Not Dura-Ace" Brown

Why?

Peter "Inquiring minds want to know" Headland
 
> Sheldon "If You Do Go To A Triple, Get Ultegra, Not Dura-Ace" Brown

Why?

Peter "Inquiring minds want to know" Headland
 
belij-<< Why? I have a 953 that I was going to put on my son's bike. I realize the shifters will
shift backwards, but is there another problem?

It'll work but as i approach a hill, I like the idea of shifting more thab one cog per click up the
casette, something that is more diffucult with the rapid-rise..

Think it's silly on a MTB rder as well...

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
 
Peter Headland wrote:
>>Sheldon "If You Do Go To A Triple, Get Ultegra, Not Dura-Ace" Brown
>
>
> Why?
>
> Peter "Inquiring minds want to know" Headland

As I said elswhere in this thread:

A usually reliable source suggested:

> The DA triple crankset consists of a double crankset with a middle ring with extended ears to
> mount the granny to. You can keep the cranks, just change the smaller chainring and the axle.
> This solution is also offered by Stronglight and TA, but not at this pricelevel ;)

That's what I thought the first time I saw the Dura-Ace triple. Unfortunately, it's not as
simple as that.

Although the special middle ring does mount on the standard "road" 130 mm bolt circle, the way the
chainring is constructed, it won't fit on a normal double crank.

Normal cranks feature "shelves" on the inside and outside of each spider arm that fit up against the
inner circumference of a standard chainring.

Conversion chainrings such as the TA and the $40 Willow unit are designed to clear this shelf, but
the Dura-Ace triple 39 has no such clearance. The special version of the Dura-Ace right crank
designed to work as a triple has no shelf on the inner faces of the spider arms.

It is possible to mount one of these rings on a standard crank, but only if you file away the
shelves on each of the 5 arms. Not many people will want to do heavy-duty filing on their
Dura-Ace cranks!

Another issue with the Dura-Ace triple is that, unlike the similar products from TA and Willow, it
does not use the standard 74 mm bolt circle for the small chainring. Instead, it uses a uniqe 92 mm
bolt circle, so there are no alternatives to the stock 30 tooth chainring!

I reiterate my recommendation of the Ultegra triple instead.

Sheldon "Most Expensive Isn't Always Best" Brown +-------------------------------------------+
| Genius may have its limitations, | but stupidity is not thus handicapped. | --Elbert Hubbard |
+-------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts Phone
617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com
 
Sheldon Brown <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> Peter Headland wrote:
> >>Sheldon "If You Do Go To A Triple, Get Ultegra, Not Dura-Ace" Brown
> >
> >
> > Why?
> >
> > Peter "Inquiring minds want to know" Headland
>
> As I said elswhere in this thread:
>
> A usually reliable source suggested:
>
> > The DA triple crankset consists of a double crankset with a middle ring with extended ears to
> > mount the granny to. You can keep the cranks, just change the smaller chainring and the axle.
> > This solution is also offered by Stronglight and TA, but not at this pricelevel ;)
>
> That's what I thought the first time I saw the Dura-Ace triple. Unfortunately, it's not as simple
> as that.
>
> Although the special middle ring does mount on the standard "road" 130 mm bolt circle, the way the
> chainring is constructed, it won't fit on a normal double crank.
>
> Normal cranks feature "shelves" on the inside and outside of each spider arm that fit up against
> the inner circumference of a standard chainring.
>
> Conversion chainrings such as the TA and the $40 Willow unit are designed to clear this shelf, but
> the Dura-Ace triple 39 has no such clearance. The special version of the Dura-Ace right crank
> designed to work as a triple has no shelf on the inner faces of the spider arms.
>
> It is possible to mount one of these rings on a standard crank, but only if you file away the
> shelves on each of the 5 arms. Not many people will want to do heavy-duty filing on their
> Dura-Ace cranks!
>
> Another issue with the Dura-Ace triple is that, unlike the similar products from TA and Willow, it
> does not use the standard 74 mm bolt circle for the small chainring. Instead, it uses a uniqe 92
> mm bolt circle, so there are no alternatives to the stock 30 tooth chainring!
>
> I reiterate my recommendation of the Ultegra triple instead.
>
> Sheldon "Most Expensive Isn't Always Best" Brown +-------------------------------------------+
> | Genius may have its limitations, | but stupidity is not thus handicapped. | --Elbert Hubbard |
> +-------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts Phone
> 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
> http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

Have to agree with Sheldon that Ultegra triple is definitely preferably over the Dura Ace triple,
and for you weight weenies out there, the Ultegra triple is LIGHTER than the Dura Ace
triple....better chainring selection, no problem with filing, and lighter weight, add in cheaper
price and you can't beat it....
 
> for you weight weenies out there, the Ultegra triple is LIGHTER than the Dura Ace triple

I don't believe this is true. ISTR the D-A being about 80g lighter than Ultegra.

>....better chainring selection, no problem with filing, and lighter weight, add in cheaper price
>and you can't beat it....

I like the appearance of the D-A better. The chainrings are a tad truer and stiffer than Ultegra,
which reduces chain rub. I think Ultegra is the intelligent choice for most folks; I made an
emotional decision in favour of D-A.
 
[email protected] (Peter Headland) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> > for you weight weenies out there, the Ultegra triple is LIGHTER than the Dura Ace triple
>
> I don't believe this is true. ISTR the D-A being about 80g lighter than Ultegra.
>
I don't know, one mailorder place list Shimano Dura Ace triple crank at 733g, here: http://www.exce-
lsports.com/new.asp?page=8&description=Dura%2DAce+Crankset+Triple&vendorCode=SHIM&major=1&minor=13

while the Ultegra triple crank weighs 724g, here: http://www.excelsports.com/new.asp?page=8&descrip-
tion=Ultegra+Crankset+Triple&vendorCode=SHIM&major=1&minor=13

> >....better chainring selection, no problem with filing, and lighter weight, add in cheaper price
> >and you can't beat it....
>
> I like the appearance of the D-A better. The chainrings are a tad truer and stiffer than Ultegra,
> which reduces chain rub. I think Ultegra is the intelligent choice for most folks; I made an
> emotional decision in favour of D-A.

How do you know Dura Ace triple crank is "stiffer" or that the chainrings are "truer" than ultegra
triple? Will you even notice this difference?

If you like the Dura Ace crank based on "looks" or emotion, then that's cool, but most people find
the lack of choice in chainrings and the fact that the Dura Ace triple cost about $150 MORE, well
its your money....
 
> > I don't believe this is true. ISTR the D-A being about 80g lighter than Ultegra.
> >
> I don't know, one mailorder place list Shimano Dura Ace triple crank at 733g ... while the Ultegra
> triple crank weighs 724g

Shimano's web site thinks that the D-A triple weighs 681g, Ultegra
760g. Anyone have both sets and a scale?

> > The chainrings are a tad truer and stiffer than Ultegra, which reduces chain rub.
>
> How do you know Dura Ace triple crank is "stiffer"

That isn't what I said, is it? I said the *rings* are stiffer. This is a no-brainer - the D-A rings
are measurably thicker than the Ultegra ones and made out of a similar aluminum alloy, obviously
they are stiffer.

> or that the chainrings are "truer"

How about, spin the crank and look at them? Anyhow, I said "reduces chain rub" - this is easy to
detect when riding.

> Will you even notice this difference?

Not often - if you are sprinting in the big ring you can tell you don't get so much chain rub. Maybe
one more gear in the back before you have to trim.

> If you like the Dura Ace crank based on "looks" or emotion, then that's cool, but most people find
> the lack of choice in chainrings and the fact that the Dura Ace triple cost about $150 MORE, well
> its your money....

Now explain to me why you aren't recommending that people should buy the 105 crankset that is
nearly identical to Ultegra, but cheaper? (Most 105 stuff is eerily similar to Ultegra for less
money.) Or what is wrong with the Tiagra crankset, come to that? For all practical purposes, these
differences are very small; we each make our own decision for reasons that are not totally based on
hard science.

As to "most people" not buying D-A, "most people" buy what comes on the bike. My Trek 5500 came with
all D-A stuff as standard equipment, Mike Jacoubowsky kindly offered to switch out the cranks
(because that's what a good LBS does), but I felt that Ultegra cranks and FD with everything else
D-A would look tacky, plus the other reasons I already explained. Obviously the cost difference
wasn't $150 in these circumstances, and $150 more or less isn't a big deal when you are buying a
~$3,500 bike anyhow.
 
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