More OP details, Basso & Ullrich accused of paying €70,000 each

[fbircher]

Placing the burden on a cyclist to prove his innocence gets the burden of proof all wrong. Given the seriousness of doping charges and the importance of a cyclist's reputation, it should be incumbent upon the doping authorities and the regulators to prove a cyclist's guilt to a very high level of confidence!

You're missing the point. To state that a falsely implicated cyclist has an interest in siezing the opportunity to clear his name is not at all incompatible with accepting the principle of legal burden of proof. I never claimed that JU or Basso could or should be legally compelled to prove their innocence, only that DNA gives them a perfect opportunity to do it anyway, and doing so would be a good thing for them. If they choose not to take advantage of this opportunity, then I will have no sympathy for them or their fans when they complain about the black cloud that hangs over them.

Think about it this way: You aren't legally obligated to brush your teeth every day. Doing so is a pretty simple and relaible way to care for your teeth, but you are legally permitted to choose not to. But if you choose not to brush and your teeth rot and fall out, can you not understand why people would be justifiably unwilling to sympathize when you complain that you don't have any teeth?

 

[jhuskey]

No riders in Puerto have been charged with anything. I just thought I would point that out one more time.
So they need not submit evidence to a charge that does not exist and my guess never will.

Damn this dead horse won't move! I gonna kick his a** anyway.

 

[musette]

You're missing the point. To state that a falsely implicated cyclist has an interest in siezing the opportunity to clear his name is not at all incompatible with accepting the principle of legal burden of proof. I never claimed that JU or Basso could or should be legally compelled to prove their innocence, only that DNA gives them a perfect opportunity to do it anyway, and doing so would be a good thing for them. If they choose not to take advantage of this opportunity, then I will have no sympathy for them or their fans when they complain about the black cloud that hangs over them.

Think about it this way: You aren't legally obligated to brush your teeth every day. Doing so is a pretty simple and relaible way to care for your teeth, but you are legally permitted to choose not to. But if you choose not to brush and your teeth rot and fall out, can you not understand why people would be justifiably unwilling to sympathize when you complain that you don't have any teeth?

What is problematic are inferences, insinuations, statements that, if a rider chooses not to volunteer DNA, that that is a sign they are guilty. They might choose not to volunteer DNA for various reasons, including a civil liberties/anti-draconian-and-anti-intrusive-testing stance. The basic principle is that a cyclist should not be forced into giving up his personal liberties and privacy, for the sake of appeasing an over-zealous WADA and over-zealous media types.

 

[matagi]

A couple of questions.....
1. Have the Spanish authorities actually agreed to release any of the blood they seized to third parties (UCI, etc) for testing?

2. Is there provision under Spanish law for an individual who may be under suspicion but has not officially been charged with a crime to insist on DNA testing of any samples obtained in the course of an investigation?

If the answers to those questions are "No" then all this calling for riders to provide DNA samples isn't going to help at all because there isn't going to be anything to test.

Now all we need is for the Spanish police to destroy all the blood they seized and that would really crown off what has been a debacle from the beginning.

 

[whiteboytrash]

http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/mole00/mole00590.htm

Question - When extracting DNA from whole blood, is the DNA coming
from the white blood cells since red blood cells do not have nuclei?
---------------------------------------
I worked in paternity testing lab for three years, so I know the
answer to this. The answer is yes.

Ron Baker, Ph.D.
====================================================================
You are correct that red blood cells, lacking a nucleus, also lack DNA. When
a DNA laboratory receives a sample of blood in a test tube, the sample is
put in a centrifuge to spin, to separate the red cells from the rest of the
blood. The DNA is extracted from the fraction containing the white blood
cells.

Sarina Kopinsky, MSc, CGC

A couple of questions.....
1. Have the Spanish authorities actually agreed to release any of the blood they seized to third parties (UCI, etc) for testing?

2. Is there provision under Spanish law for an individual who may be under suspicion but has not officially been charged with a crime to insist on DNA testing of any samples obtained in the course of an investigation?

If the answers to those questions are "No" then all this calling for riders to provide DNA samples isn't going to help at all because there isn't going to be anything to test.

Now all we need is for the Spanish police to destroy all the blood they seized and that would really crown off what has been a debacle from the beginning.

 

[fbircher]

What is problematic are inferences, insinuations, statements that, if a rider chooses not to volunteer DNA, that that is a sign they are guilty. They might choose not to volunteer DNA for various reasons, including a civil liberties/anti-draconian-and-anti-intrusive-testing stance. The basic principle is that a cyclist should not be forced into giving up his personal liberties and privacy, for the sake of appeasing an over-zealous WADA and over-zealous media types.

I'm not suggesting that these cyclists be "forced" into giving up anything. Here are my points:

• The suspicion of these cyclists exits, whether or not you agree that it should. They have to base their decisions on this reality.
• The existence of suspicion is a problem for them, based on complaints from the cyclists themselves and their fans, reluctance of potential employers to hire some of them, race organizers to accept them, etc.
• If they're innocent, there is a means available to greatly lessen, if not eliminate the problems associated with being under suspicion.
• If they choose not to take that opportunity, they can't expect a sympathetic ear when they complain about being under suspicion.

You obviously value the concept of legal burden of proof. There is also a legally protected right to free speech. As members of a free society, we have a right to form our own opinion about likelihood of guilt based on a consideration of the actions of the parties involved; we have a right to refuse to accept uncompelling arguments that attempt to rationalize those actions, and we have a right to express our opinion about it. You may disagree with our conclusions, but you certainly can't question our right to express them.

 

[fbircher]

A couple of questions.....
1. Have the Spanish authorities actually agreed to release any of the blood they seized to third parties (UCI, etc) for testing?

2. Is there provision under Spanish law for an individual who may be under suspicion but has not officially been charged with a crime to insist on DNA testing of any samples obtained in the course of an investigation?

If the answers to those questions are "No" then all this calling for riders to provide DNA samples isn't going to help at all because there isn't going to be anything to test.

Now all we need is for the Spanish police to destroy all the blood they seized and that would really crown off what has been a debacle from the beginning.

1. Not yet, as far as I'm aware. At one point a Spanish judge suggested that a voluntary program could be put in place, wherby cyclists who wanted to clear their name could submit to DNA testing on a voluntary basis. It remains to be seen if/when this will happen.
2. The Spanish authorities are not insisting on DNA samples, but that's not what's being advocated by most of the people on this forum who favor DNA testing. What I believe most people are advocating relates to two thingsa) There has been a proposal within one cycling organization that implicated cyclists submit a DNA sample to keep on record and be available for potential future testing. This proposal provides an opportunity right now for an implicated cyclist to make a statement that they don't have anything to hide. Some cyclists have already complied with this request while others have resisted, and (b) If the voluntary Spanish system proposed in item (1) above materializes, then falsely implicated cyclists have even more to gain by taking advantage of that opportunity.

 

[fbircher]

No riders in Puerto have been charged with anything. I just thought I would point that out one more time.
So they need not submit evidence to a charge that does not exist and my guess never will.

Damn this dead horse won't move! I gonna kick his a** anyway.

(a) Not yet charged - No one has said they have been.
(b) No need to supply evidence - I agree there is no legal burden. My point is that they have a lot to gain by doing so anyway.

 

[jhuskey]

WBT you are correct about DNA and an individual can be detected blood doping if they receive the wrong blood.
Such as....well I don't want to post his name, but his initials are Tyler Hamilton.

 

[JohnO]

WBT you are correct about DNA and an individual can be detected blood doping if they receive the wrong blood.
Such as....well I don't want to post his name, but his initials are Tyler Hamilton.

They can also be detected if they're doping with their own blood. If the count of immature reticulocytes (very young blood cells) is low, then the person has probably been adding previously withdrawn blood. It was just such a test that prompted the UCI to warn Hamilton in early 2004 that his blood looked funny. For some reason, the reticulocyte test didn't enter WADA's regimen - perhaps it should.

As poorly handled as OP has been, would you give your blood to that group and expect it to be expertly and accurately analyzed? Only if you are a football player... they'd lose it just like they lost any trace of football involvement. I don't blame the riders for being cautious there - look what happened to Jan, without a shred of positive evidence. Cycling has already been treated with gross negligence in OP, why should the Guarda stop now? As part of our disadvantaged person hiring practices, we're giving the Real Madrid samples to our blind lab technician for analysis.

While we're chucking out conspiracy theories du jour, perhaps OP was cooked up by FIFA to keep cycling from cutting into their broadcast revenues. And they succeeded.

 

[whiteboytrash]

Photo's of Basso transfusing were published today by el pais: http://www.dogster.com/pet_page.php?i=15091&j=t