I've never done track riding, but your almost perfectly wave like speed pattern is unique to my eyes. Is that an effect of the track I assume?Alex Simmons said:So I ride a trial pursuit effort last night, put out all time 3 min power PB and go at a pace 8 seconds slower than previous best.
Go figure....
Details here.
Is this an indoor or outdoor track? how does the air density compare to that of your PB (time) ride? Did you stand for longer at the start?Alex Simmons said:So I ride a trial pursuit effort last night, put out all time 3 min power PB and go at a pace 8 seconds slower than previous best.
Go figure....
Details here.
Yes. In simple terms, on a velodrome there are straights and curves. As you lean over or straighten up when entering/exiting the turns, your centre of gravity changes and as a result the speed as measured at the wheel varies.NomadVW said:I've never done track riding, but your almost perfectly wave like speed pattern is unique to my eyes. Is that an effect of the track I assume?
Same track (indoor Dunc Gray Velodrome), same set up (well I'm pretty sure it's the same).rmur17 said:Is this an indoor or outdoor track? how does the air density compare to that of your PB (time) ride? Did you stand for longer at the start?
just throwing some things out ... assuming you didn't change aero position, bike, wheels, tires, etc.
rmur
re the standing I meant did you remain standing for longer/further into the race. Could explain higher power yet higher drag for longer and slower speed ..Alex Simmons said:Same track (indoor Dunc Gray Velodrome), same set up (well I'm pretty sure it's the same).
Weather conditions almost the same (within a couple of degrees and a few hPa). So estimate air density variance around 0.009 kg/m^3, bugger all really.
Rear tyre is different. But not 50W different!
I don't stand until last second of count down. Even TTr's should remain with weight on saddle until the last moment - wastes energy otherwise. Opening lap real steady 14.17s (125m) and 23.73s (250m). Less than 60% of my peak power capacity during acceleration.
OK. I was in saddle and on aero bars by turn 3. It is a deliberate means to prevent me going too hard at the start.rmur17 said:re the standing I meant did you remain standing for longer/further into the race. Could explain higher power yet higher drag for longer and slower speed ..
then again I haven't even been near a track ... but I've always liked the pursuit somehow.
Alex Simmons said:So I ride a trial pursuit effort last night, put out all time 3 min power PB and go at a pace 8 seconds slower than previous best.
Go figure....
I would think you could lay the two rides out with a synchronized start point and plot the cumulative distance and work out exactly where (and why) the faster ride was faster.Alex Simmons said:So I ride a trial pursuit effort last night, put out all time 3 min power PB and go at a pace 8 seconds slower than previous best.
Go figure....
Details here.
RapDaddyo said:I would think you could lay the two rides out with a synchronized start point and plot the cumulative distance and work out exactly where (and why) the faster ride was faster.
Yeah, you know I know....acoggan said:Indeed, that's precisely what I would do.
Kidding aside, if your power was truly higher yet your speed slower, then the air density, CdA, and/or rolling resistance must have been higher. The good news would seem to be that you've got the necessary data to figure things out, and adjust accordingly.
huge difference there. I figure the slightly higher rho cost you about 0.25 kph. But looking at 50W (!!!) higher power yet ~ 1.15 kph (adjusted) slower ...Alex Simmons said:Yeah, you know I know....
From steady state part of both efforts (I re-checked the weather conditions):
48.7 km/h (13.53 m/s) @ 364 Watts. Air density 1.165 kg/m^3
47.3 km/h (13.14 m/s) @ 415 Watts. Air density 1.183 kg/m^3
I put 'em into analyticcycling.com and well, it is hard to believe that my CRR and CdA could be that different (same mass, indeed maybe a fraction lighter at the moment). But it is what it is so when my new frame arrives I have some repositioning work to do! And maybe I stick the fast tyre back on the rear wheel (Vittoria Pista CS road single vs an EVO CS track single).
I have to be pretty happy with power output though. But man, those guys that put that out for an hour....
I won't discount it entirely but it is unlikely, especially given I have other pursuit efforts at that time with comparable power and my training efforts on other bikes/PTs were producing comparable powers (I have 3 PTs). Reference here.rmur17 said:Any chance your PT was reading LOW on that PB run?
that's a big increase Alex. Any resolution to the demand side of the equation?Alex Simmons said:I won't discount it entirely but it is unlikely, especially given I have other pursuit efforts at that time with comparable power and my training efforts on other bikes/PTs were producing comparable powers (I have 3 PTs). Reference here.
Conversely, was it reading high on Monday? Not really - again everything else I am doing it reads "normal" and I have been generating very similar 3 min power in training on other PTs. Anyway - I'm not gunna worry too much about it.
It was just frustrating to crank out so much more power and not go faster! So at least I know there is significant potential to go much faster. That's the good thing.
Actually I just weighed myself and I am 2kg lighter than in March (when I last peaked for this event)! That's nearly a 17% increase in 3 min power:weight ratio. Nice work coach.
Not really. All speculation at present without much chance to assess with data.rmur17 said:that's a big increase Alex. Any resolution to the demand side of the equation?
At time of ride 79kg, hovering 79-80 at present. Touch under 6' tall. Last time I was - hang on, I must have miss read my diary notes - last time I was 78.5kg when previously I thought I was 81+. My power/weight at cruise has improved 13%, not 17%.Billsworld said:Alex , how much do you weigh? Nice ride btw
Good blog. I will never be a persuiter, but I like the event and the thought you guys put into it. With most of the weekly track racing being scratch races and points races, its interesting to see the power of the wheels that I am usually sucking I am trying to bring up my 5 and 20 min power a bit to make the suffering a little more tollerable. Good post...againAlex Simmons said:Not really. All speculation at present without much chance to assess with data.
e.g. there were vehicles working the infield cleaning up all the equipment from the World Cup. At the entrance there are large doors to allow vehicle entry. While not directly visible from the infield, maybe there was a slight clockwise draft inside as a result? I certainly didn't notice one.
I have broad shoulders (I ain't "aerodynamically gifted") and perhaps in the effort to generate the watts my position moved sufficiently to lose some aero. I did have a "windsock" sensation.
At time of ride 79kg, hovering 79-80 at present. Touch under 6' tall. Last time I was - hang on, I must have miss read my diary notes - last time I was 78.5kg when previously I thought I was 81+. My power/weight at cruise has improved 13%, not 17%.
I doubt my height has changed
The lap times are still pretty ordinary compared to my competition. Last champs were won with a 3:35 ! (when I did a 3:55).
I think everyone should do a few pursuits to really find out what it's about. I mean, how hard can a few minutes effort be, right?Billsworld said:Good blog. I will never be a persuiter, but I like the event and the thought you guys put into it. With most of the weekly track racing being scratch races and points races, its interesting to see the power of the wheels that I am usually sucking I am trying to bring up my 5 and 20 min power a bit to make the suffering a little more tollerable. Good post...again
What I meant was you persuiters are the ones that push the pace in all the mass start races.................. Persuit and Kilo are hell!! My first kilo was this summer at TTown. I blew up so bad that my hip flexors were all that was left going into turn 3. As Andy says , the kilo has a huge aerobic demand.....I learned the hard way , but I am improving.Alex Simmons said:I think everyone should do a few pursuits to really find out what it's about. I mean, how hard can a few minutes effort be, right?
Sucking wheels saves LOTS of energy. No wheels to suck in a pursuit though. Unless you're Wendy Houvenaghel that is.
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