More power please....



Alex Simmons

Active Member
Mar 12, 2006
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So I ride a trial pursuit effort last night, put out all time 3 min power PB :D and go at a pace 8 seconds slower than previous best:(.

Go figure....

Details here.
 
Alex Simmons said:
So I ride a trial pursuit effort last night, put out all time 3 min power PB :D and go at a pace 8 seconds slower than previous best:(.

Go figure....

Details here.
I've never done track riding, but your almost perfectly wave like speed pattern is unique to my eyes. Is that an effect of the track I assume?
 
Alex Simmons said:
So I ride a trial pursuit effort last night, put out all time 3 min power PB :D and go at a pace 8 seconds slower than previous best:(.

Go figure....

Details here.
Is this an indoor or outdoor track? how does the air density compare to that of your PB (time) ride? Did you stand for longer at the start?

just throwing some things out ... assuming you didn't change aero position, bike, wheels, tires, etc.

rmur
 
NomadVW said:
I've never done track riding, but your almost perfectly wave like speed pattern is unique to my eyes. Is that an effect of the track I assume?
Yes. In simple terms, on a velodrome there are straights and curves. As you lean over or straighten up when entering/exiting the turns, your centre of gravity changes and as a result the speed as measured at the wheel varies.

If you want to see more about this effect, go to www.analyticcycling.com
 
rmur17 said:
Is this an indoor or outdoor track? how does the air density compare to that of your PB (time) ride? Did you stand for longer at the start?

just throwing some things out ... assuming you didn't change aero position, bike, wheels, tires, etc.

rmur
Same track (indoor Dunc Gray Velodrome), same set up (well I'm pretty sure it's the same).

Weather conditions almost the same (within a couple of degrees and a few hPa). So estimate air density variance around 0.009 kg/m^3, bugger all really.

Rear tyre is different. But not 50W different!

I don't stand until last second of count down. Even TTr's should remain with weight on saddle until the last moment - wastes energy otherwise. Opening lap real steady 14.17s (125m) and 23.73s (250m). Less than 60% of my peak power capacity during acceleration.
 
Alex Simmons said:
Same track (indoor Dunc Gray Velodrome), same set up (well I'm pretty sure it's the same).

Weather conditions almost the same (within a couple of degrees and a few hPa). So estimate air density variance around 0.009 kg/m^3, bugger all really.

Rear tyre is different. But not 50W different!

I don't stand until last second of count down. Even TTr's should remain with weight on saddle until the last moment - wastes energy otherwise. Opening lap real steady 14.17s (125m) and 23.73s (250m). Less than 60% of my peak power capacity during acceleration.
re the standing I meant did you remain standing for longer/further into the race. Could explain higher power yet higher drag for longer and slower speed ..

then again I haven't even been near a track ... but I've always liked the pursuit somehow.
 
rmur17 said:
re the standing I meant did you remain standing for longer/further into the race. Could explain higher power yet higher drag for longer and slower speed ..

then again I haven't even been near a track ... but I've always liked the pursuit somehow.
OK. I was in saddle and on aero bars by turn 3. It is a deliberate means to prevent me going too hard at the start.

And PT was properly zeroed and checked before and after. I'm careful like that.

Wish I could sleep - it's hot here....
 
I've ridden my best ~16 min power hands on the hoods. The 10 km time was ~45 slowlier compared to my normal, hands on the drops. But the power was ~10 Watts better than otherwise.
 
Alex Simmons said:
So I ride a trial pursuit effort last night, put out all time 3 min power PB :D and go at a pace 8 seconds slower than previous best:(.

Go figure....

Indeed, that's precisely what I would do. ;)

Kidding aside, if your power was truly higher yet your speed slower, then the air density, CdA, and/or rolling resistance must have been higher. The good news would seem to be that you've got the necessary data to figure things out, and adjust accordingly.
 
Alex Simmons said:
So I ride a trial pursuit effort last night, put out all time 3 min power PB :D and go at a pace 8 seconds slower than previous best:(.

Go figure....

Details here.
I would think you could lay the two rides out with a synchronized start point and plot the cumulative distance and work out exactly where (and why) the faster ride was faster.
 
RapDaddyo said:
I would think you could lay the two rides out with a synchronized start point and plot the cumulative distance and work out exactly where (and why) the faster ride was faster.

Or you could save yourself a lot of work and just go by the split times. ;)
 
acoggan said:
Indeed, that's precisely what I would do. ;)

Kidding aside, if your power was truly higher yet your speed slower, then the air density, CdA, and/or rolling resistance must have been higher. The good news would seem to be that you've got the necessary data to figure things out, and adjust accordingly.
Yeah, you know I know....

From steady state part of both efforts (I re-checked the weather conditions):

48.7 km/h (13.53 m/s) @ 364 Watts. Air density 1.165 kg/m^3
47.3 km/h (13.14 m/s) @ 415 Watts. Air density 1.183 kg/m^3

I put 'em into analyticcycling.com and well, it is hard to believe that my CRR and CdA could be that different (same mass, indeed maybe a fraction lighter at the moment). But it is what it is so when my new frame arrives I have some repositioning work to do! And maybe I stick the fast tyre back on the rear wheel (Vittoria Pista CS road single vs an EVO CS track single).

I have to be pretty happy with power output though. But man, those guys that put that out for an hour....
 
Alex Simmons said:
Yeah, you know I know....

From steady state part of both efforts (I re-checked the weather conditions):

48.7 km/h (13.53 m/s) @ 364 Watts. Air density 1.165 kg/m^3
47.3 km/h (13.14 m/s) @ 415 Watts. Air density 1.183 kg/m^3

I put 'em into analyticcycling.com and well, it is hard to believe that my CRR and CdA could be that different (same mass, indeed maybe a fraction lighter at the moment). But it is what it is so when my new frame arrives I have some repositioning work to do! And maybe I stick the fast tyre back on the rear wheel (Vittoria Pista CS road single vs an EVO CS track single).

I have to be pretty happy with power output though. But man, those guys that put that out for an hour....
huge difference there. I figure the slightly higher rho cost you about 0.25 kph. But looking at 50W (!!!) higher power yet ~ 1.15 kph (adjusted) slower ...

I think that works out to about a 20% difference in CdA (ignoring the tires).

Any chance your PT was reading LOW on that PB run?
 
rmur17 said:
Any chance your PT was reading LOW on that PB run?
I won't discount it entirely but it is unlikely, especially given I have other pursuit efforts at that time with comparable power and my training efforts on other bikes/PTs were producing comparable powers (I have 3 PTs). Reference here.

Conversely, was it reading high on Monday? Not really - again everything else I am doing it reads "normal" and I have been generating very similar 3 min power in training on other PTs. Anyway - I'm not gunna worry too much about it.

It was just frustrating to crank out so much more power and not go faster! So at least I know there is significant potential to go much faster. That's the good thing.

Actually I just weighed myself and I am 2kg lighter than in March (when I last peaked for this event)!:eek: That's nearly a 17% increase in 3 min power:weight ratio. Nice work coach.;)
 
Alex Simmons said:
I won't discount it entirely but it is unlikely, especially given I have other pursuit efforts at that time with comparable power and my training efforts on other bikes/PTs were producing comparable powers (I have 3 PTs). Reference here.

Conversely, was it reading high on Monday? Not really - again everything else I am doing it reads "normal" and I have been generating very similar 3 min power in training on other PTs. Anyway - I'm not gunna worry too much about it.

It was just frustrating to crank out so much more power and not go faster! So at least I know there is significant potential to go much faster. That's the good thing.

Actually I just weighed myself and I am 2kg lighter than in March (when I last peaked for this event)!:eek: That's nearly a 17% increase in 3 min power:weight ratio. Nice work coach.;)
that's a big increase Alex. Any resolution to the demand side of the equation?
 
rmur17 said:
that's a big increase Alex. Any resolution to the demand side of the equation?
Not really. All speculation at present without much chance to assess with data.

e.g. there were vehicles working the infield cleaning up all the equipment from the World Cup. At the entrance there are large doors to allow vehicle entry. While not directly visible from the infield, maybe there was a slight clockwise draft inside as a result? I certainly didn't notice one.

I have broad shoulders (I ain't "aerodynamically gifted") and perhaps in the effort to generate the watts my position moved sufficiently to lose some aero. I did have a "windsock" sensation.

Billsworld said:
Alex , how much do you weigh? Nice ride btw
At time of ride 79kg, hovering 79-80 at present. Touch under 6' tall. Last time I was - hang on, I must have miss read my diary notes - last time I was 78.5kg when previously I thought I was 81+. My power/weight at cruise has improved 13%, not 17%.

I doubt my height has changed:eek:

The lap times are still pretty ordinary compared to my competition. Last champs were won with a 3:35 ! (when I did a 3:55).
 
Alex Simmons said:
Not really. All speculation at present without much chance to assess with data.

e.g. there were vehicles working the infield cleaning up all the equipment from the World Cup. At the entrance there are large doors to allow vehicle entry. While not directly visible from the infield, maybe there was a slight clockwise draft inside as a result? I certainly didn't notice one.

I have broad shoulders (I ain't "aerodynamically gifted") and perhaps in the effort to generate the watts my position moved sufficiently to lose some aero. I did have a "windsock" sensation.

At time of ride 79kg, hovering 79-80 at present. Touch under 6' tall. Last time I was - hang on, I must have miss read my diary notes - last time I was 78.5kg when previously I thought I was 81+. My power/weight at cruise has improved 13%, not 17%.

I doubt my height has changed:eek:

The lap times are still pretty ordinary compared to my competition. Last champs were won with a 3:35 ! (when I did a 3:55).
Good blog. I will never be a persuiter, but I like the event and the thought you guys put into it. With most of the weekly track racing being scratch races and points races, its interesting to see the power of the wheels that I am usually sucking:) I am trying to bring up my 5 and 20 min power a bit to make the suffering a little more tollerable. Good post...again
 
Billsworld said:
Good blog. I will never be a persuiter, but I like the event and the thought you guys put into it. With most of the weekly track racing being scratch races and points races, its interesting to see the power of the wheels that I am usually sucking:) I am trying to bring up my 5 and 20 min power a bit to make the suffering a little more tollerable. Good post...again
I think everyone should do a few pursuits to really find out what it's about. I mean, how hard can a few minutes effort be, right?;)

Sucking wheels saves LOTS of energy. No wheels to suck in a pursuit though. Unless you're Wendy Houvenaghel that is.:eek:
 
Alex Simmons said:
I think everyone should do a few pursuits to really find out what it's about. I mean, how hard can a few minutes effort be, right?;)

Sucking wheels saves LOTS of energy. No wheels to suck in a pursuit though. Unless you're Wendy Houvenaghel that is.:eek:
What I meant was you persuiters are the ones that push the pace in all the mass start races.................. Persuit and Kilo are hell!! My first kilo was this summer at TTown. I blew up so bad that my hip flexors were all that was left going into turn 3.:( As Andy says , the kilo has a huge aerobic demand.....I learned the hard way , but I am improving.