More water generates more Ketones?

Discussion in 'Food and nutrition' started by John E, Jan 1, 2005.

  1. John E

    John E Guest

    Hi folks,

    One website suggested drinking 8 glasses of water PLUS
    one extra glass per 25LB you intend to lose. They
    expressed this water is important to flush out Ketones.

    My question:

    Does drinking more water cause the body to flush out more ketones hence the
    body is forced to generate
    new ketones for energy?

    OR the water just helps rinse the kidneys from ketones?

    I understand if the body is short on water it tends to
    slow down metabolism. But that's independent of
    what am seeking an answer for.

    To reiterate:

    If the body has produced lots of Ketones and they are being used for energy.
    Drinking lots of water causes us to urinate or sweat; does that mean
    we are flushing out the to-be-used ketones hence the body needs to break
    down more fat for energy?

    Thanks,

    J.
     
    Tags:


  2. DJ Delorie

    DJ Delorie Guest

    "John E" <[email protected]> writes:
    > Does drinking more water cause the body to flush out more ketones
    > hence the body is forced to generate new ketones for energy?


    The amount of calories lost due to secreted ketones is insignificant.

    OMHI: Water is a key part of metabolism. The more you have to lose,
    the more you *weigh*, and thus the higher your metabolism. Higher
    metabolism means more water needed.
     
  3. marengo

    marengo Guest

    "John E" <[email protected]> wrote in message

    || Does drinking more water cause the body to flush out more ketones
    || hence the body is forced to generate
    || new ketones for energy?
    ||
    || Thanks,
    ||
    || J.

    Contrary to popular folklore propulgated by many gullible people, drinking
    huge amounts of water has no extra benefit at all over drinking adequate
    amounts. Our bodies are designed to tell us that we are thirsty when we
    need to drink. And besides what we drink, meat is more than 75% water, and
    vegetables are more than 90% water. There is absolutely no research or
    evidence that anyone has to drink a certain number of ounces of water per
    day, plus a percentage of their body weight, etc. You'll hear many people
    say tat you have to drink pure water and that tea, soda, etc. don't count.
    This also is rubbish.

    Again, the idea that we have to drink large quantities of water to low
    weight or stay healthy is something that somebody made up years ago and has
    been passed around until many people accept it as fact, when it is not.

    Drink when you feel thirsty and you will be fine.
    --
    Peter
    270/219/180
    website: http://users.thelink.net/marengo
     
  4. marengo wrote:
    > "John E" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >
    > || Does drinking more water cause the body to flush out more ketones
    > || hence the body is forced to generate
    > || new ketones for energy?
    > ||
    > || Thanks,
    > ||
    > || J.
    >
    > Contrary to popular folklore propulgated by many gullible people,

    drinking
    > huge amounts of water has no extra benefit at all over drinking

    adequate
    > amounts. Our bodies are designed to tell us that we are thirsty when

    we
    > need to drink. And besides what we drink, meat is more than 75%

    water, and
    > vegetables are more than 90% water. There is absolutely no research

    or
    > evidence that anyone has to drink a certain number of ounces of water

    per
    > day, plus a percentage of their body weight, etc. You'll hear many

    people
    > say tat you have to drink pure water and that tea, soda, etc. don't

    count.
    > This also is rubbish.
    >
    > Again, the idea that we have to drink large quantities of water to

    low
    > weight or stay healthy is something that somebody made up years ago

    and has
    > been passed around until many people accept it as fact, when it is

    not.
    >
    > Drink when you feel thirsty and you will be fine.
    > --
    > Peter
    > 270/219/180
    > website: http://users.thelink.net/marengo



    In general I agree. I remebmer seeing a report awhile back where
    someone did some research to try to find where the recommendations for
    how much water people should drink came from and what it was based on.
    Despite searching extensivel, they found no scientific basis. Instead,
    it appears to be another example of something passes around as fact,
    when there is no sound basis for it.

    However, when you're doing LC, it certainly doesn't hurt to drink some
    extra water as your body is generating more than normal amounts of
    waste products and the extra water will help eliminate it.
    Particularly uric acid, which tends to rise during rapid weight loss
    and can form kidney stones.

    A side benefit of drinking cold water is that it takes extra calories
    to raise it to body temp, so it does increase your daily calorie burn
    slightly. Raising a liter of cold water to body temp takes about 30
    cals.

    Drinking a lot more water than needed can actually be harmful, so you
    don't want to overdo it either.
     
  5. Cubit

    Cubit Guest

    I strongly suspect that the water advice one finds is, indeed, based on
    myth. However, unfortunately, my personal experience is that weightloss
    stops while water drinking is normal. If I return to drinking extra water
    the weightloss resumes. I find this frustrating, because I dislike the
    process of drinking lots of fluids. I have not experimented with reducing
    water for a long period to see if the weightloss would resume without the
    extra water/fluids.

    Go with the flow. LOL

    Cubit
    311/200/165
    LC since 12/01/2003


    <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    >
    > marengo wrote:
    > > "John E" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > >
    > > || Does drinking more water cause the body to flush out more ketones
    > > || hence the body is forced to generate
    > > || new ketones for energy?
    > > ||
    > > || Thanks,
    > > ||
    > > || J.
    > >
    > > Contrary to popular folklore propulgated by many gullible people,

    > drinking
    > > huge amounts of water has no extra benefit at all over drinking

    > adequate
    > > amounts. Our bodies are designed to tell us that we are thirsty when

    > we
    > > need to drink. And besides what we drink, meat is more than 75%

    > water, and
    > > vegetables are more than 90% water. There is absolutely no research

    > or
    > > evidence that anyone has to drink a certain number of ounces of water

    > per
    > > day, plus a percentage of their body weight, etc. You'll hear many

    > people
    > > say tat you have to drink pure water and that tea, soda, etc. don't

    > count.
    > > This also is rubbish.
    > >
    > > Again, the idea that we have to drink large quantities of water to

    > low
    > > weight or stay healthy is something that somebody made up years ago

    > and has
    > > been passed around until many people accept it as fact, when it is

    > not.
    > >
    > > Drink when you feel thirsty and you will be fine.
    > > --
    > > Peter
    > > 270/219/180
    > > website: http://users.thelink.net/marengo

    >
    >
    > In general I agree. I remebmer seeing a report awhile back where
    > someone did some research to try to find where the recommendations for
    > how much water people should drink came from and what it was based on.
    > Despite searching extensivel, they found no scientific basis. Instead,
    > it appears to be another example of something passes around as fact,
    > when there is no sound basis for it.
    >
    > However, when you're doing LC, it certainly doesn't hurt to drink some
    > extra water as your body is generating more than normal amounts of
    > waste products and the extra water will help eliminate it.
    > Particularly uric acid, which tends to rise during rapid weight loss
    > and can form kidney stones.
    >
    > A side benefit of drinking cold water is that it takes extra calories
    > to raise it to body temp, so it does increase your daily calorie burn
    > slightly. Raising a liter of cold water to body temp takes about 30
    > cals.
    >
    > Drinking a lot more water than needed can actually be harmful, so you
    > don't want to overdo it either.
    >
     
  6. marengo

    marengo Guest

    <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    || marengo wrote:
    ||| "John E" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    |||
    ||||| Does drinking more water cause the body to flush out more ketones
    ||||| hence the body is forced to generate
    ||||| new ketones for energy?
    |||||
    ||||| Thanks,
    |||||
    ||||| J.
    |||
    ||| Contrary to popular folklore propulgated by many gullible people,
    ||| drinking huge amounts of water has no extra benefit at all over
    ||| drinking adequate amounts. Our bodies are designed to tell us that
    ||| we are thirsty when we need to drink. And besides what we drink,
    ||| meat is more than 75% water, and vegetables are more than 90%
    ||| water. There is absolutely no research or evidence that anyone has
    ||| to drink a certain number of ounces of water per day, plus a
    ||| percentage of their body weight, etc. You'll hear many people say
    ||| tat you have to drink pure water and that tea, soda, etc. don't
    ||| count. This also is rubbish.
    |||
    ||| Again, the idea that we have to drink large quantities of water to
    ||| low weight or stay healthy is something that somebody made up years
    ||| ago and has been passed around until many people accept it as
    ||| fact, when it is not.
    |||
    ||| Drink when you feel thirsty and you will be fine.
    ||| --
    ||| Peter
    ||| 270/219/180
    ||| website: http://users.thelink.net/marengo
    ||
    ||
    || In general I agree. I remebmer seeing a report awhile back where
    || someone did some research to try to find where the recommendations
    || for how much water people should drink came from and what it was
    || based on. Despite searching extensivel, they found no scientific
    || basis. Instead, it appears to be another example of something
    || passes around as fact, when there is no sound basis for it.
    ||

    Yep, It's a concept that was propulgated in the 1970's by the Stillman
    Diet -- drink tons of water to "flush out" the calories. Although never
    proven to be true -- and with no scientific basis -- the myth has somehow
    stuck with otherwise sophisticated dieters asnd become part of our pop
    culture.
    --
    Peter
    270/219/180
    website: http://users.thelink.net/marengo
     
  7. revek

    revek Guest

    marengo wrote:
    > <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    > > > marengo wrote:
    > > > > "John E" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > > >
    > > > > > > Does drinking more water cause the body to flush out more
    > > > > > > ketones hence the body is forced to generate
    > > > > > > new ketones for energy?
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > Thanks,
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > J.
    > > > >
    > > > > Contrary to popular folklore propulgated by many gullible
    > > > > people, drinking huge amounts of water has no extra benefit at
    > > > > all over drinking adequate amounts. Our bodies are designed to
    > > > > tell us that we are thirsty when we need to drink. And besides
    > > > > what we drink, meat is more than 75% water, and vegetables are
    > > > > more than 90% water. There is absolutely no research or
    > > > > evidence that anyone has to drink a certain number of ounces of
    > > > > water per day, plus a percentage of their body weight, etc.
    > > > > You'll hear many people say tat you have to drink pure water
    > > > > and that tea, soda, etc. don't count. This also is rubbish.
    > > > >
    > > > > Again, the idea that we have to drink large quantities of water
    > > > > to low weight or stay healthy is something that somebody made
    > > > > up years ago and has been passed around until many people
    > > > > accept it as fact, when it is not.
    > > > >
    > > > > Drink when you feel thirsty and you will be fine.
    > > > > --
    > > > > Peter
    > > > > 270/219/180
    > > > > website: http://users.thelink.net/marengo
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > In general I agree. I remebmer seeing a report awhile back where
    > > > someone did some research to try to find where the recommendations
    > > > for how much water people should drink came from and what it was
    > > > based on. Despite searching extensivel, they found no scientific
    > > > basis. Instead, it appears to be another example of something
    > > > passes around as fact, when there is no sound basis for it.
    > > >

    >
    > Yep, It's a concept that was propulgated in the 1970's by the Stillman
    > Diet -- drink tons of water to "flush out" the calories. Although
    > never proven to be true -- and with no scientific basis -- the myth
    > has somehow stuck with otherwise sophisticated dieters asnd become
    > part of our pop culture.



    It may partially be because some of us are chronically dehydrated or
    near-dehydrated. Since we aren't used to drinking the proper amount of
    water for our size and activity, (often mistaking thirst signals for
    hunger-- and often eating something salty-- and therefore messing up our
    electroltyte balance even more) we tend to think of drinking enough as a
    lot -- when it only seems so.

    Maybe.

    --
    revek
    My own personal mortality rate using a group of subjects bearing my
    exact fingerprints, is that I am going to die someday.-- Crafting Mom
     
  8. jbuch

    jbuch Guest

    [email protected] wrote:

    > A side benefit of drinking cold water is that it takes extra calories
    > to raise it to body temp, so it does increase your daily calorie burn
    > slightly. Raising a liter of cold water to body temp takes about 30
    > cals.
    >
    > Drinking a lot more water than needed can actually be harmful, so you
    > don't want to overdo it either.
    >



    So, to lose a pound of fat, using the standard 3500 Cal per pound
    conversion, you would need to drink about 115 liters of ice cold water.

    And to lose 10 pounds, you would need 1150 liters of ice cold water.

    You could cut that down a lot if you chewed ice and let it melt in your
    mouth. Or drank a lot of ice smoothies.

    However, you did mention not to overdo this water drinking thing.
    Probably you also don't want to overdo eating too much ice either.

    :)-))
     
  9. Xtile

    Xtile Guest

    John E wrote:
    > Hi folks,
    >
    > One website suggested drinking 8 glasses of water PLUS
    > one extra glass per 25LB you intend to lose. They
    > expressed this water is important to flush out Ketones.
    >
    > My question:
    >
    > Does drinking more water cause the body to flush out more ketones hence the
    > body is forced to generate
    > new ketones for energy?
    >
    > OR the water just helps rinse the kidneys from ketones?
    >
    > I understand if the body is short on water it tends to
    > slow down metabolism. But that's independent of
    > what am seeking an answer for.
    >
    > To reiterate:
    >
    > If the body has produced lots of Ketones and they are being used for energy.
    > Drinking lots of water causes us to urinate or sweat; does that mean
    > we are flushing out the to-be-used ketones hence the body needs to break
    > down more fat for energy?
    >
    > Thanks,
    >
    > J.
    >
    >

    Atkins says to flush out all the ketones you can, I think that once they
    are in the waste removal system of the body they should be flushed.
    they leave through the skin, too.
     
  10. john

    john Guest

    On Sun, 2 Jan 2005 02:09:24 -0500, "marengo" <[email protected] cox.net>
    wrote:

    >"John E" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >
    >|| Does drinking more water cause the body to flush out more ketones
    >|| hence the body is forced to generate
    >|| new ketones for energy?
    >||
    >|| Thanks,
    >||
    >|| J.
    >
    >Contrary to popular folklore propulgated by many gullible people, drinking
    >huge amounts of water has no extra benefit at all over drinking adequate
    >amounts. Our bodies are designed to tell us that we are thirsty when we
    >need to drink. And besides what we drink, meat is more than 75% water, and
    >vegetables are more than 90% water. There is absolutely no research or
    >evidence that anyone has to drink a certain number of ounces of water per
    >day, plus a percentage of their body weight, etc. You'll hear many people
    >say tat you have to drink pure water and that tea, soda, etc. don't count.
    >This also is rubbish.
    >
    >Again, the idea that we have to drink large quantities of water to low
    >weight or stay healthy is something that somebody made up years ago and has
    >been passed around until many people accept it as fact, when it is not.
    >
    >Drink when you feel thirsty and you will be fine.


    Heres a follow up article that concurs with you. It's kinda long, but
    interesting.

    Home Edition
    Section: Health
    Page: S-1

    For years we've been admonished to chug eight glasses of water a
    day--for our skin, for our weight, for general good health.
    But--surprise!--experts say that advice is simply...; Hard to Swallow

    By: BENEDICT CAREY
    TIMES HEALTH WRITER

    talk about a drinking problem.
    On the one hand, it seems that more people than ever are drinking
    heavily: College students bring bottles into classrooms; office
    workers nip from jugs all day long. Many of us are like Gerri Johnson,
    a 56-year-old kindergarten teacher living in Manhattan Beach, who
    says, "I carry a bottle of water throughout the day, and I'm always
    drinking. It flushes out my body, and it's good for my skin."
    At the same time, some nutritionists insist that half the country is
    walking around dehydrated. We drink too much coffee, tea and sodas
    containing caffeine, which prompts the body to lose water, they say;
    and when we are dehydrated, we don't know enough to drink.
    Can it be so? Should healthy adults really be stalking the water
    cooler to protect themselves from creeping dehydration?
    Not at all, doctors say. "The notion that there is widespread
    dehydration has no basis in medical fact," says Dr. Robert Alpern,
    dean of the medical school at the University of Texas Southwestern
    Medical Center in Dallas.
    Doctors from a wide range of specialties agree: By all evidence, we
    are a well-hydrated nation. Furthermore, they say, the current
    infatuation with water as an all-purpose health potion--tonic for the
    skin, key to weight loss--is a blend of fashion and fiction and very
    little science.
    Consider that first commandment of good health: Drink at least eight
    8-ounce glasses of water a day. This unquestioned rule is itself a
    question mark. Most nutritionists have no idea where it comes from. "I
    can't even tell you that," says Barbara Rolls, a nutrition researcher
    at Pennsylvania State University, "and I've written a book on water."
    Some say the number was derived from fluid intake measurements taken
    decades ago among hospital patients on IVs; others say it's less a
    measure of what people need than a convenient reference point,
    especially for those who are prone to dehydration, such as many
    elderly people.
    Kidney specialists do agree on one thing, however: that the 8-by-8
    rule is a gross overestimate of any required minimum. To replace daily
    losses of water, an average-sized adult with healthy kidneys sitting
    in a temperate climate needs no more than one liter of fluid,
    according to Jurgen Schnermann, a kidney physiologist at the National
    Institutes of Health.
    One liter is the equivalent of about four 8-ounce glasses. According
    to most estimates, that's roughly the amount of water most Americans
    get in solid food. In short, though doctors don't recommend it, many
    of us could cover our bare-minimum daily water needs without drinking
    anything during the day.
    "Whenever I go to the airport I see all these people carrying around
    bottles of water, and I wonder, 'What's behind this?' " says
    Schnermann. "Certainly not science."
    Try confusion. The way it's almost always stated, in books, magazines
    and newspapers, the 8-by-8 rule specifically discounts caffeinated
    beverages, such as coffee. This is flat wrong. Caffeine does cause a
    loss of water, but only a fraction of what you're adding by drinking
    the beverage. In people who don't regularly consume caffeine, for
    example, researchers say that a cup of java actually adds about
    two-thirds the amount of hydrating fluid that's in a cup of water.
    That is to say, one cup of coffee equals about two-thirds a cup of
    water--if you're not a regular caffeine drinker.
    Regular coffee and tea drinkers become accustomed to caffeine and lose
    little, if any, fluid. In a study published in the October issue of
    the Journal of the American College of Nutrition, researchers at the
    Center for Human Nutrition in Omaha measured how different
    combinations of water, coffee and caffeinated sodas affected the
    hydration status of 18 healthy adults who drink caffeinated beverages
    routinely.
    "We found no significant differences at all," says nutritionist Ann
    Grandjean, the study's lead author. "The purpose of the study was to
    find out if caffeine is dehydrating in healthy people who are drinking
    normal amounts of it. It is not."
    The same goes for tea, juice, milk and caffeinated sodas: One glass
    provides about the same amount of hydrating fluid as a glass of water.
    The only common drinks that produce a net loss of fluids are those
    containing alcohol--and usually it takes more than one of those to
    cause noticeable dehydration, doctors say. Do the Math: We're Drinking
    Plenty
    Now, take a close look at a survey released this May by the
    International Bottled Water Assn. Based on interviews with 2,818
    adults in 14 U.S. cities, the association concluded that "although an
    overwhelming majority of Americans know that drinking water enhances
    health, most don't drink as much per day as they should."
    Yet, according to the association's own numbers, Americans say they
    drink an average of 6.1 glasses of water, 3.7 servings of soda or
    sports drinks, 3.2 of coffee and tea, 1.9 of juice, 1.7 of milk, and
    one alcoholic drink each day.
    All told, after subtracting the alcoholic drink, that's a sopping 15
    glasses of hydrating fluids, well above the already exaggerated
    "minimum." And it doesn't even include the three or four glasses
    contained in solid food.
    What do we do with all this excess water? Ask any water junkie who's
    tried to sit through a movie lately: We run to the bathroom.
    For some people, drinking plenty of water is a very good idea. As we
    age, for example, many of us grow less sensitive to losses of body
    water and don't drink when we should. Developing a water habit is a
    good precaution against dehydration. In addition, researchers have
    good evidence that people who develop kidney stones can lower their
    risk of further problems by drinking more fluids. "Those are the only
    patients we would tell to drink more water," says Alpern.
    But there are also people for whom guzzling water is dangerous.
    According to Dr. Gary Robertson, who studies water metabolism at
    Northwestern University Medical School in Chicago, these are patients
    whose bodies have trouble eliminating fluids--for example, those with
    diabetes who are taking anti-diuretic hormone, or ADH, which prevents
    the body from losing water. "The excess water cannot be excreted," he
    says, "and the result is water intoxication, which produces symptoms
    ranging from mild headache to confusion, coma, seizures and
    occasionally even death."
    Increasingly, says Robertson, doctors are prescribing ADH for
    conditions such as nocturia, a persistent need to urinate at night,
    which ruins sleep in many elderly people; and bed-wetting, in both
    older adults and children. He's aware of one case already in which a
    diabetic woman taking ADH died of water intoxication after following
    the advice of an article discussing the health benefits of water.
    Of course, if you're healthy, and you're laboring over the stair
    machine, playing basketball, or even gardening in a hot, dry climate,
    you're going to need a lot more than a liter to keep you hydrated. But
    you hardly need a nutritionist or a doctor to tell you that.
    "You're dying of thirst," says Alpern. "The thirst mechanism is one of
    the most powerful and sensitive of all the body's regulatory
    processes." Thirst Is Your Best Indicator
    Robertson says that this mechanism almost always kicks in when we've
    lost between 1% and 2% of body water. "There's no evidence that this 1
    to 2% decrease is harmful in any way," he says. "Thus, there is really
    no need to 'prevent' this slight decrease in body water by drinking a
    specified amount in the absence of thirst."
    What if you're sweating and for some reason don't or can't drink?
    That's when the body will begin to squeeze water from its own tissues,
    including the brain and the skin. And that's why you may get a
    headache when dehydrated, and why your skin can look ragged and dry. A
    tall, cool glass of water or soda or iced tea will soothe your head
    and revive your skin, in most cases, doctors say--but only if you're
    dehydrated to start with.
    "If you're a normally hydrated person, like you or me," says Dr. David
    Rish, a dermatologist in Beverly Hills, "then drinking extra water is
    not going to do anything for your skin. If your skin is dry, and
    you're hydrated, the best thing to do is apply lotion." Using Water as
    a Diet Aid
    Perhaps most cruelly of all, there's no good evidence that drinking
    water significantly curbs appetite. "I think that's mostly an
    invention of the diet industry," says Carolyn Katzin, a nutritionist
    in Brentwood who runs the American Cancer Society's nutrition program
    in California. "A better way to get water is in fruits and
    vegetables."
    A couple of liters of drinking water certainly fill the stomach,
    researchers say. But you're just as hungry shortly thereafter; and
    once all that water flows under the bridge, you tend to eat as many
    calories as you would have without guzzling.
    Barbara Rolls, the Pennsylvania State researcher, says water can help
    you eat fewer calories--as long as it's cooked into food. In a 1999
    study, Rolls tallied how many calories 24 healthy adult women ate when
    served a lunch of chicken and rice. When the chicken and rice were
    prepared as a casserole and served with a glass of water, the women
    consumed an average of 392 calories each. When the rice, chicken and
    water were cooked together into a soup, the women ate an average of
    only 289 calories each. "And they did not make up for those calories
    by eating more at dinner," says Rolls.
    "This is really the way the body is engineered to get water--in food,
    in soup, in fruits and vegetables, which are almost all water," says
    UCLA psychologist William McCarthy, who's also director of science at
    the Pritikin Longevity Center in Santa Monica. "When we get water in
    this food matrix, it stays with us for a while. Whereas when we drink
    liquid water, it goes right through the body. I see all these people
    carrying around their water bottles like talismans to protect them
    from disease and weight gain. Well, lots of that water is going into
    the stomach--and right out."
    Not that it's doing any mischief in healthy adults along the way. "You
    know, I get patients in my office all the time, saying, 'I've been
    real good, doc, I'm drinking seven glasses of water a day,' " says
    Alpern. "And I leave them alone. It's certainly not doing them any
    harm, and it's a lot better than other habits they could have."
    So relax, doctors say. Forget the diet books. And listen to your own
    body. Says Ann Grandjean: "Look, if you're running to the bathroom so
    much it seems like you can't get any work done, you're drinking too
    much. And if you're going less than four times a day, you're probably
    drinking too little."
    PHOTO: When we drink glass after glass of water, says UCLA's
    William McCarthy, "lots of that water is going into the stomach--and
    right out."
    PHOTOGRAPHER: AL SEIB / Los Angeles Times
    PHOTO: Carolyn Katzin, a nutritionist, says, "A better way to get
    water is in fruits and vegetables."
    PHOTOGRAPHER: PAUL MORSE / Los Angeles Times
    PHOTO: Many doctors say Americans don't need to drink nearly as
    much water as they have been led to believe; a liter of fluid is
    enough
    for most.
    PHOTOGRAPHER: ANACLETO RAPPING / Los Angeles Times
    PHOTO: (no caption), ANACLETO RAPPING; illustration by STEPHEN
    SEDAM / Los Angeles Times
    Descriptors: Water, Health
     
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