More water generates more Ketones?



J

John E

Guest
Hi folks,

One website suggested drinking 8 glasses of water PLUS
one extra glass per 25LB you intend to lose. They
expressed this water is important to flush out Ketones.

My question:

Does drinking more water cause the body to flush out more ketones hence the
body is forced to generate
new ketones for energy?

OR the water just helps rinse the kidneys from ketones?

I understand if the body is short on water it tends to
slow down metabolism. But that's independent of
what am seeking an answer for.

To reiterate:

If the body has produced lots of Ketones and they are being used for energy.
Drinking lots of water causes us to urinate or sweat; does that mean
we are flushing out the to-be-used ketones hence the body needs to break
down more fat for energy?

Thanks,

J.
 
D

DJ Delorie

Guest
"John E" <[email protected]> writes:
> Does drinking more water cause the body to flush out more ketones
> hence the body is forced to generate new ketones for energy?


The amount of calories lost due to secreted ketones is insignificant.

OMHI: Water is a key part of metabolism. The more you have to lose,
the more you *weigh*, and thus the higher your metabolism. Higher
metabolism means more water needed.
 
M

marengo

Guest
"John E" <[email protected]> wrote in message

|| Does drinking more water cause the body to flush out more ketones
|| hence the body is forced to generate
|| new ketones for energy?
||
|| Thanks,
||
|| J.

Contrary to popular folklore propulgated by many gullible people, drinking
huge amounts of water has no extra benefit at all over drinking adequate
amounts. Our bodies are designed to tell us that we are thirsty when we
need to drink. And besides what we drink, meat is more than 75% water, and
vegetables are more than 90% water. There is absolutely no research or
evidence that anyone has to drink a certain number of ounces of water per
day, plus a percentage of their body weight, etc. You'll hear many people
say tat you have to drink pure water and that tea, soda, etc. don't count.
This also is rubbish.

Again, the idea that we have to drink large quantities of water to low
weight or stay healthy is something that somebody made up years ago and has
been passed around until many people accept it as fact, when it is not.

Drink when you feel thirsty and you will be fine.
--
Peter
270/219/180
website: http://users.thelink.net/marengo
 
marengo wrote:
> "John E" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> || Does drinking more water cause the body to flush out more ketones
> || hence the body is forced to generate
> || new ketones for energy?
> ||
> || Thanks,
> ||
> || J.
>
> Contrary to popular folklore propulgated by many gullible people,

drinking
> huge amounts of water has no extra benefit at all over drinking

adequate
> amounts. Our bodies are designed to tell us that we are thirsty when

we
> need to drink. And besides what we drink, meat is more than 75%

water, and
> vegetables are more than 90% water. There is absolutely no research

or
> evidence that anyone has to drink a certain number of ounces of water

per
> day, plus a percentage of their body weight, etc. You'll hear many

people
> say tat you have to drink pure water and that tea, soda, etc. don't

count.
> This also is rubbish.
>
> Again, the idea that we have to drink large quantities of water to

low
> weight or stay healthy is something that somebody made up years ago

and has
> been passed around until many people accept it as fact, when it is

not.
>
> Drink when you feel thirsty and you will be fine.
> --
> Peter
> 270/219/180
> website: http://users.thelink.net/marengo



In general I agree. I remebmer seeing a report awhile back where
someone did some research to try to find where the recommendations for
how much water people should drink came from and what it was based on.
Despite searching extensivel, they found no scientific basis. Instead,
it appears to be another example of something passes around as fact,
when there is no sound basis for it.

However, when you're doing LC, it certainly doesn't hurt to drink some
extra water as your body is generating more than normal amounts of
waste products and the extra water will help eliminate it.
Particularly uric acid, which tends to rise during rapid weight loss
and can form kidney stones.

A side benefit of drinking cold water is that it takes extra calories
to raise it to body temp, so it does increase your daily calorie burn
slightly. Raising a liter of cold water to body temp takes about 30
cals.

Drinking a lot more water than needed can actually be harmful, so you
don't want to overdo it either.
 
C

Cubit

Guest
I strongly suspect that the water advice one finds is, indeed, based on
myth. However, unfortunately, my personal experience is that weightloss
stops while water drinking is normal. If I return to drinking extra water
the weightloss resumes. I find this frustrating, because I dislike the
process of drinking lots of fluids. I have not experimented with reducing
water for a long period to see if the weightloss would resume without the
extra water/fluids.

Go with the flow. LOL

Cubit
311/200/165
LC since 12/01/2003


<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
> marengo wrote:
> > "John E" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >
> > || Does drinking more water cause the body to flush out more ketones
> > || hence the body is forced to generate
> > || new ketones for energy?
> > ||
> > || Thanks,
> > ||
> > || J.
> >
> > Contrary to popular folklore propulgated by many gullible people,

> drinking
> > huge amounts of water has no extra benefit at all over drinking

> adequate
> > amounts. Our bodies are designed to tell us that we are thirsty when

> we
> > need to drink. And besides what we drink, meat is more than 75%

> water, and
> > vegetables are more than 90% water. There is absolutely no research

> or
> > evidence that anyone has to drink a certain number of ounces of water

> per
> > day, plus a percentage of their body weight, etc. You'll hear many

> people
> > say tat you have to drink pure water and that tea, soda, etc. don't

> count.
> > This also is rubbish.
> >
> > Again, the idea that we have to drink large quantities of water to

> low
> > weight or stay healthy is something that somebody made up years ago

> and has
> > been passed around until many people accept it as fact, when it is

> not.
> >
> > Drink when you feel thirsty and you will be fine.
> > --
> > Peter
> > 270/219/180
> > website: http://users.thelink.net/marengo

>
>
> In general I agree. I remebmer seeing a report awhile back where
> someone did some research to try to find where the recommendations for
> how much water people should drink came from and what it was based on.
> Despite searching extensivel, they found no scientific basis. Instead,
> it appears to be another example of something passes around as fact,
> when there is no sound basis for it.
>
> However, when you're doing LC, it certainly doesn't hurt to drink some
> extra water as your body is generating more than normal amounts of
> waste products and the extra water will help eliminate it.
> Particularly uric acid, which tends to rise during rapid weight loss
> and can form kidney stones.
>
> A side benefit of drinking cold water is that it takes extra calories
> to raise it to body temp, so it does increase your daily calorie burn
> slightly. Raising a liter of cold water to body temp takes about 30
> cals.
>
> Drinking a lot more water than needed can actually be harmful, so you
> don't want to overdo it either.
>
 
M

marengo

Guest
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
|| marengo wrote:
||| "John E" <[email protected]> wrote in message
|||
||||| Does drinking more water cause the body to flush out more ketones
||||| hence the body is forced to generate
||||| new ketones for energy?
|||||
||||| Thanks,
|||||
||||| J.
|||
||| Contrary to popular folklore propulgated by many gullible people,
||| drinking huge amounts of water has no extra benefit at all over
||| drinking adequate amounts. Our bodies are designed to tell us that
||| we are thirsty when we need to drink. And besides what we drink,
||| meat is more than 75% water, and vegetables are more than 90%
||| water. There is absolutely no research or evidence that anyone has
||| to drink a certain number of ounces of water per day, plus a
||| percentage of their body weight, etc. You'll hear many people say
||| tat you have to drink pure water and that tea, soda, etc. don't
||| count. This also is rubbish.
|||
||| Again, the idea that we have to drink large quantities of water to
||| low weight or stay healthy is something that somebody made up years
||| ago and has been passed around until many people accept it as
||| fact, when it is not.
|||
||| Drink when you feel thirsty and you will be fine.
||| --
||| Peter
||| 270/219/180
||| website: http://users.thelink.net/marengo
||
||
|| In general I agree. I remebmer seeing a report awhile back where
|| someone did some research to try to find where the recommendations
|| for how much water people should drink came from and what it was
|| based on. Despite searching extensivel, they found no scientific
|| basis. Instead, it appears to be another example of something
|| passes around as fact, when there is no sound basis for it.
||

Yep, It's a concept that was propulgated in the 1970's by the Stillman
Diet -- drink tons of water to "flush out" the calories. Although never
proven to be true -- and with no scientific basis -- the myth has somehow
stuck with otherwise sophisticated dieters asnd become part of our pop
culture.
--
Peter
270/219/180
website: http://users.thelink.net/marengo
 
R

revek

Guest
marengo wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
> > > marengo wrote:
> > > > "John E" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > >
> > > > > > Does drinking more water cause the body to flush out more
> > > > > > ketones hence the body is forced to generate
> > > > > > new ketones for energy?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > J.
> > > >
> > > > Contrary to popular folklore propulgated by many gullible
> > > > people, drinking huge amounts of water has no extra benefit at
> > > > all over drinking adequate amounts. Our bodies are designed to
> > > > tell us that we are thirsty when we need to drink. And besides
> > > > what we drink, meat is more than 75% water, and vegetables are
> > > > more than 90% water. There is absolutely no research or
> > > > evidence that anyone has to drink a certain number of ounces of
> > > > water per day, plus a percentage of their body weight, etc.
> > > > You'll hear many people say tat you have to drink pure water
> > > > and that tea, soda, etc. don't count. This also is rubbish.
> > > >
> > > > Again, the idea that we have to drink large quantities of water
> > > > to low weight or stay healthy is something that somebody made
> > > > up years ago and has been passed around until many people
> > > > accept it as fact, when it is not.
> > > >
> > > > Drink when you feel thirsty and you will be fine.
> > > > --
> > > > Peter
> > > > 270/219/180
> > > > website: http://users.thelink.net/marengo
> > >
> > >
> > > In general I agree. I remebmer seeing a report awhile back where
> > > someone did some research to try to find where the recommendations
> > > for how much water people should drink came from and what it was
> > > based on. Despite searching extensivel, they found no scientific
> > > basis. Instead, it appears to be another example of something
> > > passes around as fact, when there is no sound basis for it.
> > >

>
> Yep, It's a concept that was propulgated in the 1970's by the Stillman
> Diet -- drink tons of water to "flush out" the calories. Although
> never proven to be true -- and with no scientific basis -- the myth
> has somehow stuck with otherwise sophisticated dieters asnd become
> part of our pop culture.



It may partially be because some of us are chronically dehydrated or
near-dehydrated. Since we aren't used to drinking the proper amount of
water for our size and activity, (often mistaking thirst signals for
hunger-- and often eating something salty-- and therefore messing up our
electroltyte balance even more) we tend to think of drinking enough as a
lot -- when it only seems so.

Maybe.

--
revek
My own personal mortality rate using a group of subjects bearing my
exact fingerprints, is that I am going to die someday.-- Crafting Mom
 
J

jbuch

Guest
[email protected] wrote:

> A side benefit of drinking cold water is that it takes extra calories
> to raise it to body temp, so it does increase your daily calorie burn
> slightly. Raising a liter of cold water to body temp takes about 30
> cals.
>
> Drinking a lot more water than needed can actually be harmful, so you
> don't want to overdo it either.
>



So, to lose a pound of fat, using the standard 3500 Cal per pound
conversion, you would need to drink about 115 liters of ice cold water.

And to lose 10 pounds, you would need 1150 liters of ice cold water.

You could cut that down a lot if you chewed ice and let it melt in your
mouth. Or drank a lot of ice smoothies.

However, you did mention not to overdo this water drinking thing.
Probably you also don't want to overdo eating too much ice either.

:)-))
 
X

Xtile

Guest
John E wrote:
> Hi folks,
>
> One website suggested drinking 8 glasses of water PLUS
> one extra glass per 25LB you intend to lose. They
> expressed this water is important to flush out Ketones.
>
> My question:
>
> Does drinking more water cause the body to flush out more ketones hence the
> body is forced to generate
> new ketones for energy?
>
> OR the water just helps rinse the kidneys from ketones?
>
> I understand if the body is short on water it tends to
> slow down metabolism. But that's independent of
> what am seeking an answer for.
>
> To reiterate:
>
> If the body has produced lots of Ketones and they are being used for energy.
> Drinking lots of water causes us to urinate or sweat; does that mean
> we are flushing out the to-be-used ketones hence the body needs to break
> down more fat for energy?
>
> Thanks,
>
> J.
>
>

Atkins says to flush out all the ketones you can, I think that once they
are in the waste removal system of the body they should be flushed.
they leave through the skin, too.
 
J

john

Guest
On Sun, 2 Jan 2005 02:09:24 -0500, "marengo" <[email protected] cox.net>
wrote:

>"John E" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
>|| Does drinking more water cause the body to flush out more ketones
>|| hence the body is forced to generate
>|| new ketones for energy?
>||
>|| Thanks,
>||
>|| J.
>
>Contrary to popular folklore propulgated by many gullible people, drinking
>huge amounts of water has no extra benefit at all over drinking adequate
>amounts. Our bodies are designed to tell us that we are thirsty when we
>need to drink. And besides what we drink, meat is more than 75% water, and
>vegetables are more than 90% water. There is absolutely no research or
>evidence that anyone has to drink a certain number of ounces of water per
>day, plus a percentage of their body weight, etc. You'll hear many people
>say tat you have to drink pure water and that tea, soda, etc. don't count.
>This also is rubbish.
>
>Again, the idea that we have to drink large quantities of water to low
>weight or stay healthy is something that somebody made up years ago and has
>been passed around until many people accept it as fact, when it is not.
>
>Drink when you feel thirsty and you will be fine.


Heres a follow up article that concurs with you. It's kinda long, but
interesting.

Home Edition
Section: Health
Page: S-1

For years we've been admonished to chug eight glasses of water a
day--for our skin, for our weight, for general good health.
But--surprise!--experts say that advice is simply...; Hard to Swallow

By: BENEDICT CAREY
TIMES HEALTH WRITER

talk about a drinking problem.
On the one hand, it seems that more people than ever are drinking
heavily: College students bring bottles into classrooms; office
workers nip from jugs all day long. Many of us are like Gerri Johnson,
a 56-year-old kindergarten teacher living in Manhattan Beach, who
says, "I carry a bottle of water throughout the day, and I'm always
drinking. It flushes out my body, and it's good for my skin."
At the same time, some nutritionists insist that half the country is
walking around dehydrated. We drink too much coffee, tea and sodas
containing caffeine, which prompts the body to lose water, they say;
and when we are dehydrated, we don't know enough to drink.
Can it be so? Should healthy adults really be stalking the water
cooler to protect themselves from creeping dehydration?
Not at all, doctors say. "The notion that there is widespread
dehydration has no basis in medical fact," says Dr. Robert Alpern,
dean of the medical school at the University of Texas Southwestern
Medical Center in Dallas.
Doctors from a wide range of specialties agree: By all evidence, we
are a well-hydrated nation. Furthermore, they say, the current
infatuation with water as an all-purpose health potion--tonic for the
skin, key to weight loss--is a blend of fashion and fiction and very
little science.
Consider that first commandment of good health: Drink at least eight
8-ounce glasses of water a day. This unquestioned rule is itself a
question mark. Most nutritionists have no idea where it comes from. "I
can't even tell you that," says Barbara Rolls, a nutrition researcher
at Pennsylvania State University, "and I've written a book on water."
Some say the number was derived from fluid intake measurements taken
decades ago among hospital patients on IVs; others say it's less a
measure of what people need than a convenient reference point,
especially for those who are prone to dehydration, such as many
elderly people.
Kidney specialists do agree on one thing, however: that the 8-by-8
rule is a gross overestimate of any required minimum. To replace daily
losses of water, an average-sized adult with healthy kidneys sitting
in a temperate climate needs no more than one liter of fluid,
according to Jurgen Schnermann, a kidney physiologist at the National
Institutes of Health.
One liter is the equivalent of about four 8-ounce glasses. According
to most estimates, that's roughly the amount of water most Americans
get in solid food. In short, though doctors don't recommend it, many
of us could cover our bare-minimum daily water needs without drinking
anything during the day.
"Whenever I go to the airport I see all these people carrying around
bottles of water, and I wonder, 'What's behind this?' " says
Schnermann. "Certainly not science."
Try confusion. The way it's almost always stated, in books, magazines
and newspapers, the 8-by-8 rule specifically discounts caffeinated
beverages, such as coffee. This is flat wrong. Caffeine does cause a
loss of water, but only a fraction of what you're adding by drinking
the beverage. In people who don't regularly consume caffeine, for
example, researchers say that a cup of java actually adds about
two-thirds the amount of hydrating fluid that's in a cup of water.
That is to say, one cup of coffee equals about two-thirds a cup of
water--if you're not a regular caffeine drinker.
Regular coffee and tea drinkers become accustomed to caffeine and lose
little, if any, fluid. In a study published in the October issue of
the Journal of the American College of Nutrition, researchers at the
Center for Human Nutrition in Omaha measured how different
combinations of water, coffee and caffeinated sodas affected the
hydration status of 18 healthy adults who drink caffeinated beverages
routinely.
"We found no significant differences at all," says nutritionist Ann
Grandjean, the study's lead author. "The purpose of the study was to
find out if caffeine is dehydrating in healthy people who are drinking
normal amounts of it. It is not."
The same goes for tea, juice, milk and caffeinated sodas: One glass
provides about the same amount of hydrating fluid as a glass of water.
The only common drinks that produce a net loss of fluids are those
containing alcohol--and usually it takes more than one of those to
cause noticeable dehydration, doctors say. Do the Math: We're Drinking
Plenty
Now, take a close look at a survey released this May by the
International Bottled Water Assn. Based on interviews with 2,818
adults in 14 U.S. cities, the association concluded that "although an
overwhelming majority of Americans know that drinking water enhances
health, most don't drink as much per day as they should."
Yet, according to the association's own numbers, Americans say they
drink an average of 6.1 glasses of water, 3.7 servings of soda or
sports drinks, 3.2 of coffee and tea, 1.9 of juice, 1.7 of milk, and
one alcoholic drink each day.
All told, after subtracting the alcoholic drink, that's a sopping 15
glasses of hydrating fluids, well above the already exaggerated
"minimum." And it doesn't even include the three or four glasses
contained in solid food.
What do we do with all this excess water? Ask any water junkie who's
tried to sit through a movie lately: We run to the bathroom.
For some people, drinking plenty of water is a very good idea. As we
age, for example, many of us grow less sensitive to losses of body
water and don't drink when we should. Developing a water habit is a
good precaution against dehydration. In addition, researchers have
good evidence that people who develop kidney stones can lower their
risk of further problems by drinking more fluids. "Those are the only
patients we would tell to drink more water," says Alpern.
But there are also people for whom guzzling water is dangerous.
According to Dr. Gary Robertson, who studies water metabolism at
Northwestern University Medical School in Chicago, these are patients
whose bodies have trouble eliminating fluids--for example, those with
diabetes who are taking anti-diuretic hormone, or ADH, which prevents
the body from losing water. "The excess water cannot be excreted," he
says, "and the result is water intoxication, which produces symptoms
ranging from mild headache to confusion, coma, seizures and
occasionally even death."
Increasingly, says Robertson, doctors are prescribing ADH for
conditions such as nocturia, a persistent need to urinate at night,
which ruins sleep in many elderly people; and bed-wetting, in both
older adults and children. He's aware of one case already in which a
diabetic woman taking ADH died of water intoxication after following
the advice of an article discussing the health benefits of water.
Of course, if you're healthy, and you're laboring over the stair
machine, playing basketball, or even gardening in a hot, dry climate,
you're going to need a lot more than a liter to keep you hydrated. But
you hardly need a nutritionist or a doctor to tell you that.
"You're dying of thirst," says Alpern. "The thirst mechanism is one of
the most powerful and sensitive of all the body's regulatory
processes." Thirst Is Your Best Indicator
Robertson says that this mechanism almost always kicks in when we've
lost between 1% and 2% of body water. "There's no evidence that this 1
to 2% decrease is harmful in any way," he says. "Thus, there is really
no need to 'prevent' this slight decrease in body water by drinking a
specified amount in the absence of thirst."
What if you're sweating and for some reason don't or can't drink?
That's when the body will begin to squeeze water from its own tissues,
including the brain and the skin. And that's why you may get a
headache when dehydrated, and why your skin can look ragged and dry. A
tall, cool glass of water or soda or iced tea will soothe your head
and revive your skin, in most cases, doctors say--but only if you're
dehydrated to start with.
"If you're a normally hydrated person, like you or me," says Dr. David
Rish, a dermatologist in Beverly Hills, "then drinking extra water is
not going to do anything for your skin. If your skin is dry, and
you're hydrated, the best thing to do is apply lotion." Using Water as
a Diet Aid
Perhaps most cruelly of all, there's no good evidence that drinking
water significantly curbs appetite. "I think that's mostly an
invention of the diet industry," says Carolyn Katzin, a nutritionist
in Brentwood who runs the American Cancer Society's nutrition program
in California. "A better way to get water is in fruits and
vegetables."
A couple of liters of drinking water certainly fill the stomach,
researchers say. But you're just as hungry shortly thereafter; and
once all that water flows under the bridge, you tend to eat as many
calories as you would have without guzzling.
Barbara Rolls, the Pennsylvania State researcher, says water can help
you eat fewer calories--as long as it's cooked into food. In a 1999
study, Rolls tallied how many calories 24 healthy adult women ate when
served a lunch of chicken and rice. When the chicken and rice were
prepared as a casserole and served with a glass of water, the women
consumed an average of 392 calories each. When the rice, chicken and
water were cooked together into a soup, the women ate an average of
only 289 calories each. "And they did not make up for those calories
by eating more at dinner," says Rolls.
"This is really the way the body is engineered to get water--in food,
in soup, in fruits and vegetables, which are almost all water," says
UCLA psychologist William McCarthy, who's also director of science at
the Pritikin Longevity Center in Santa Monica. "When we get water in
this food matrix, it stays with us for a while. Whereas when we drink
liquid water, it goes right through the body. I see all these people
carrying around their water bottles like talismans to protect them
from disease and weight gain. Well, lots of that water is going into
the stomach--and right out."
Not that it's doing any mischief in healthy adults along the way. "You
know, I get patients in my office all the time, saying, 'I've been
real good, doc, I'm drinking seven glasses of water a day,' " says
Alpern. "And I leave them alone. It's certainly not doing them any
harm, and it's a lot better than other habits they could have."
So relax, doctors say. Forget the diet books. And listen to your own
body. Says Ann Grandjean: "Look, if you're running to the bathroom so
much it seems like you can't get any work done, you're drinking too
much. And if you're going less than four times a day, you're probably
drinking too little."
PHOTO: When we drink glass after glass of water, says UCLA's
William McCarthy, "lots of that water is going into the stomach--and
right out."
PHOTOGRAPHER: AL SEIB / Los Angeles Times
PHOTO: Carolyn Katzin, a nutritionist, says, "A better way to get
water is in fruits and vegetables."
PHOTOGRAPHER: PAUL MORSE / Los Angeles Times
PHOTO: Many doctors say Americans don't need to drink nearly as
much water as they have been led to believe; a liter of fluid is
enough
for most.
PHOTOGRAPHER: ANACLETO RAPPING / Los Angeles Times
PHOTO: (no caption), ANACLETO RAPPING; illustration by STEPHEN
SEDAM / Los Angeles Times
Descriptors: Water, Health