Most effecient Length of Pulls in a Eschelon or Paceline

[Freddy Merxury]

Does anyone know if research has been done on what the most effecient length of a pull is in a eschelon? I've heard a lot of differing theories based on anecdotal information. I'm interested in some hard numbers about what is faster. Short pulls or longer pulls, and whether there is a sweet spot based on scietific studies.

 

[dominikk85]

Originally Posted by Freddy Merxury .

Does anyone know if research has been done on what the most effecient length of a pull is in a eschelon? I've heard a lot of differing theories based on anecdotal information. I'm interested in some hard numbers about what is faster. Short pulls or longer pulls, and whether there is a sweet spot based on scietific studies.

I think the fastests is actually a double row (that belgian thing don't know it's english name) when you everyone is doing a very short turn and immediately falls back like this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZRji1gJ-r8

however this is also very tough so 200-300m turns are more common. often the strongest rolleur will make longer turns.

 

[oldbobcat]

Pretty much depends on the size of the group, the wind direction, and the relative fitness of the riders. The double paceline works well in a crosswind, especially for well matched riders. The single line works well in a direct headwind or where wind is not a factor, or if the riders are not especially well matched. Then the weaker riders can take shorter pulls. There are also diagonal lines for working a large group through a crosswind. I see it as mainly a choice of the right tool for the job.

 

[vspa]

in echelons short pulls, scientists belong in a university classroom, get involved in club rides or races and learn the stuff properly,

 

[tiremaniacs]

No rule at all. A strong rider might want to pull a bit longer while a weaker rider will not even rotate. Or the one prepping for the final spring will not participate and the lone who has no chances at the sprint line will kill himself to pull the group and setup one guy for the win. This is why it's important to have guys participate who know their roles, limits, strengths, and the configuration within the race. If it's not the race then you care less about this whole thing and can just experiment with your form, skills, dealings with others, etc.

 

[alienator]

scientists belong in a university classroom,

That's one view, albeit one that expresses a misunderstanding about what science is all about and how it functions.

 

[Freddy Merxury]

I'm a Cat 3, I've done plenty of group rides, races, pacelines, eschelons, ect.... My question comes from looking at Team Time Trials in the Vuelta and TDF, where it seems like the best teams have guys take longer pulls at the front. I had been told that the most effecient (fastest) pacelines are when you pull off immediatly after coming through to the front. I'm trying to reconcile this with what I've seen from the pro's in TTT's. I get that there can be stronger people, weaker people, blah, blah, blah. The question is in an ideal situation where all people in a 5 man breakaway are equally talented, how long should each pull at the front in order to maximize the speed of the group.

 

[elronino]

I truly think its based upon the situation in which your group is in. Like it was stated above, if a rider is preparing for the stint, he/she may not do as much work to conserve power and energy. On the other hand, if there is a dedicated domestique in a group/pace line that is there to look after someone or set pace that person may spend more time out front. I agree with a comment above, just get involved and understand each situation as it comes along. I don't think you should set a hard and fast rule for every ride.

 

[Freddy Merxury]

That's not the point. Sometimes I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall on this forum. I'm asking theoretically what is the best. If you are saying I should do group rides and see what they do, then DONE, I've done tons of group rides. You are assuming the idiots in the group ride know what they're doing or that they are even attempting to produce the fastest possible paceline which is rarely if ever the case. And how exactly should I measure the varying degrees of success of each method??? There are too many variables.

Which is why if you look at the original question, I want to know if there is RESEARCH on this topic.

 

[oldbobcat]

Originally Posted by Freddy Merxury .

Which is why if you look at the original question, I want to know if there is RESEARCH on this topic.

Don't shout.

In reply to your question, probably not. There's your opportunity for a thesis.

 

[CAMPYBOB]

"Sometimes I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall on this forum."

I like the cut of your jib, sir!

 

[ambal]

Originally Posted by Freddy Merxury .

what the most effecient length of a pull is in a eschelon?

Obviously not taking a pull is the most efficient, stay out of the wind. Zero meter pull wins hands down.

 

[danfoz]

I would imagine the most efficient length of pull is going to depend on an equation using at least the following variables: size of paceline, desired speed and fitness levels. I was never great at math but this would suggest there is no single answer.

 

[alienator]

I would imagine the most efficient length of pull is going to depend on an equation using at least the following variables: size of paceline, desired speed and fitness levels. I was never great at math but this would suggest there is no single answer.

It will also include spacing of riders in peloton, wind direction, barometric conditions, energy state of the rider pulling, metabolic efficiency of rider pulling, power profile of rider pulling, mental state.........and likely many other variables. it would be a very complex problem, one not amenable to a closed solution.

 

[Freddy Merxury]

Thank you for at least providing a well reasoned answer to the actual question asked.

I understand there are alot of variables to account for.

Maybe to put a finer point on my question, is anyone was aware of any research that shows a rotating pacline is more effecient (under the exact same conditions) then a single pacline?

 

[CAMPYBOB]

Some comments on paceline types, speeds, energy savings and time on the front. It's pretty basic, but offers a little technical data. No clue how accurate it is.

http://www.inlandempirecycling.com/Cycling/group_riding_and_pace_lines.htm

 

[An old Guy]

Originally Posted by Freddy Merxury .

Does anyone know if research has been done on what the most effecient length of a pull is in a eschelon? I've heard a lot of differing theories based on anecdotal information. I'm interested in some hard numbers about what is faster. Short pulls or longer pulls, and whether there is a sweet spot based on scietific studies.

You ask a very hard question. But ...

It seems reasonable that it is most efficient to start your turn at the front in the same physical condition each rotation. That requires that you should end your turn when you have enough recovery time to get back to your turn at your front starting physical condition.

It seems reasonable that a pace line is similar to doing intervals - a given power level for some length of time with the recovery period ( at 70-75%) being the time others are at the front. You need to be capable of doing these intervals for a set distance rather than a set number of intervals. If you knew enough about your and your team mates abilities, you could figure out what is best for your group.

In casual riding you can look at how you recover from a pull and spend more or less time at the front.

On the other hand, if one rider is sufficiently strong that he can sit at the front for the whole ride at a power level that causes the others to be at their limits while sitting in, then that rider should take one long pull and the others should sit in.

 

[MMMhills]

It really depends on how strong you are compared to the group and how hard you are pushing it compared to your fitness level. If you are going all out and everyone is equal than very short pulls in a rotating double paceline will be most effective. Look at the top pro tours when a break away is fighting to stay clear.

Most of us are not pros so I will give you a couple examples from my riding experience as a stronger than most 42 year old non racer. When I ride with the really fast racer guys with speeds in the mid to upper 20 mph range when it is my turn I pull maybe 30 seconds and often pull through as soon as it is clear. on the other extreme I do a three day charity ride with friends that are not as fit and I pull the entire 300 miles with average speeds in the upper teens. Both these scenarios are the most efficient for me.

Bottom line do what works for you.

 

[vspa]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0Kzp23ULN4&feature=relmfu from 2:15 till 3:30 you get some scientific data

 

[An old Guy]

Originally Posted by vspa .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0Kzp23ULN4&feature=relmfu
from 2:15 till 3:30 you get some scientific data

It appears they say to pull printing for 200-300 yards during a one hour event with friends.

That works with a friendly group. Not the best idea during a race.