Motobecane Fly 9357: XTR for $995?!

Discussion in 'Mountain Bikes' started by B. Sanders, Sep 13, 2003.

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  1. B. Sanders

    B. Sanders Guest

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  2. Chris

    Chris Guest

    "B. Sanders" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > Has anybody ridden one of these?
    >
    > http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/motobecane_fly_9357.htm
    >
    > Great specs for the price. Nice looking bike. Dual-air fork. I'm
    skeptical
    > of the claimed frame weight, though (2.7 lbs?)
    >
    > -=B=-
    >

    I've heard really good reviews - albeit they were in mtb magazines. I have no direct
    experience, though.

    The frame weight _should_ be accurate. The bike itself was weighed by Mountainbike Action (IIRC) at
    23 pounds, again IIRC. I can't find the issue right now or I'd have better info.

    Chris
     
  3. Super Slinky

    Super Slinky Guest

    B. Sanders said...

    > Has anybody ridden one of these?
    >
    > http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/motobecane_fly_9357.htm
    >
    > Great specs for the price. Nice looking bike. Dual-air fork. I'm skeptical of the claimed frame
    > weight, though (2.7 lbs?)
    >
    > -=B=-

    Let's see, a Chinese made hardtail frame with RST forks and chocked full of house brand parts for
    $1000. Big hairy deal. No, it isn't a good spec for the price. This is the bicycle equivalent of
    those flea market tools and car audio systems. Ebay is dominated by auctions for just these kinds of
    bikes. There are so many of them, it makes it a chore to wade through them to find something worth
    looking at. Go there if you want one of these, it will probably be cheaper. I really have to wonder
    why you keep posting these things. You must be trolling, because I find it hard to believe that you
    really think you are doing prospective buyers a favor by advertising these things.
     
  4. B. Sanders

    B. Sanders Guest

    "Super Slinky" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > B. Sanders said...
    >
    > > Has anybody ridden one of these?
    > >
    > > http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/motobecane_fly_9357.htm
    > >
    > > Great specs for the price. Nice looking bike. Dual-air fork. I'm
    skeptical
    > > of the claimed frame weight, though (2.7 lbs?)
    > >
    > > -=B=-
    >
    > Let's see, a Chinese made hardtail frame

    You're wrong. It's made in Canada, as are all Motobecane frames.

    "Frame of the Year" from at least one cycling magazine (if you care about such things...)

    > with RST forks

    RST makes a wide range of performance levels. Some of their forks are highly regarded. Just because
    it's not supported by a huge marketing campaign and sponsored racers doesn't mean it's junk. I'm
    asking for evaluations, not knee-jerk "it's not a brand I recognize" pot-shots, which are of no
    value (except to hyper-brand-conscious fools).

    > and chocked full of house brand parts for $1000.

    1) The vast majority of bike parts are made in China or Taiwan, including Ritchey, Truvativ, FSA,
    Bontrager, even Shimano.

    2) House-branded parts are standard on all sub-$1000 bikes from every brand. Where they are
    manufactured is irrelevant.

    > Big hairy deal. No, it isn't a good spec for the price.

    Yes it is. The claimed bike weight is sub-23lbs. Find another similarly-spec'd bike that light, for
    that price, then we can talk. (You won't.)

    > This is the bicycle equivalent of those flea market tools and car audio systems.

    Your uninformed opinion and unswerving brand loyalty is noted. You've never ridden the bike; but you
    have no trouble trashing it based upon your limited knowledge. I'm neither trashing, nor promoting
    the bike. I'm asking people if they've ridden it, and to tell me what they thought. It's called
    "evidence" as opposed to "conjecture."

    > Ebay is dominated by auctions for just these kinds of bikes. There are so many of them, it makes
    > it a chore to wade through them to find something worth looking at.

    You have no idea what you're talking about. Have you ridden this bike? Do you actually look at
    Ebay's offerings in detail? Apparently not.

    > Go there if you want one of these, it will probably be cheaper. I really have to wonder why you
    > keep posting these things. You must be trolling, because I find it hard to believe that you really
    > think you are doing prospective buyers a favor by advertising these things.

    I don't let brand name recognition determine my buying habits. If something is good, it's good
    regardless of what sponsored pro racers think. Conversely, a product can be unreliable even with a
    big brand name behind it
    (ie: early Mavic UST wheel systems, certain Manitou air forks, post-Chris-King Bontrager Race Lite
    wheels, etc.). If it's well-made, and value-priced, it's a bargain. If it's overpriced and
    unreliable, then it's not.

    The fact is, you just trashed this bike by association, without ever having ridden it, and basing
    *all* of your criticism on a lack of recognizable brand logos. That's the opposite of informed
    evaluation, despite what you appear to believe.

    Who is the troll here?

    -=Barry=-
     
  5. Slacker

    Slacker Guest

    > I don't let brand name recognition determine my buying habits. If
    something
    > is good, it's good regardless of what sponsored pro racers think. Conversely, a product can be
    > unreliable even with a big brand name behind
    it
    > (ie: early Mavic UST wheel systems, certain Manitou air forks, post-Chris-King Bontrager Race Lite
    > wheels, etc.). If it's well-made, and value-priced, it's a bargain. If it's overpriced and
    > unreliable, then
    it's
    > not.
    >
    > The fact is, you just trashed this bike by association, without ever
    having
    > ridden it, and basing *all* of your criticism on a lack of recognizable brand logos. That's the
    > opposite of informed evaluation, despite what you appear to believe.
    >
    > Who is the troll here?
    >
    > -=Barry=-

    This has nothing to do with your Moto, but contrary to popular belief, first-hand experience is not
    always necessary to form a perfectly good/acceptable opinion. It's called doing research.

    Looking at companies past history is a good indicator of future performance. And there's nothing
    wrong if company A owns company B,C & D who all manufacture crap, and coming to the conclusion that
    staying away from company A would be a good idea. It's called, birds of the same feather....

    I do this stuff everyday at work, and so far (6 years) my boss has been telling me, "good job."

    --
    Slacker
     
  6. Super Slinky

    Super Slinky Guest

    B. Sanders said...

    > You're wrong. It's made in Canada, as are all Motobecane frames.

    I strongly doubt it. The parent company may be in Canada, but I poked around a little on their web
    site and Google, and I saw no indication that they are made in Canada. A couple of people on the
    MTBR boards said they were made by Kinesis, almost certainly in Taiwan or China. You lose. Very few
    budget priced frames are made in this hemisphere. Even if they are, it is still a cheap bike with a
    bunch of no name parts on it.

    > "Frame of the Year" from at least one cycling magazine (if you care about such things...)

    I don't. I have never bought a biking rag, and that is the truth. But I did see that list of 'bikes
    of the year' and was underwhelmed to say the least. All of them were budget priced models. Am I
    supposed to believe that Motobecane is better than a Foes, Ellsworth, or Titus?

    > RST makes a wide range of performance levels. Some of their forks are highly regarded. Just
    > because it's not supported by a huge marketing campaign and sponsored racers doesn't mean it's
    > junk. I'm asking for evaluations, not knee-jerk "it's not a brand I recognize" pot-shots, which
    > are of no value (except to hyper-brand-conscious fools).

    Highly regarded by who? You can't even read about them or rate them on MTBR. That surprised me. Very
    peculiar to say the least. By all accounts I have seen, there is very little to recommend them. If
    you have one and it works, you are lucky. Use it until it screws up then chuck it.

    > 1) The vast majority of bike parts are made in China or Taiwan, including Ritchey, Truvativ, FSA,
    > Bontrager, even Shimano.

    What does that have to do with the house brand parts in question? You are quite the bullshit artist,
    aren't you? The vast majority of budget priced bike parts are made in Taiwan and China. Most of the
    better ones aren't. But I never made any comment about where the parts were made, only the frame.
    But since you brought it up, I'll point out that you make the asinine assumption that just because a
    part is made in the same country, it is the exact same thing.

    > 2) House-branded parts are standard on all sub-$1000 bikes from every brand. Where they are
    > manufactured is irrelevant.

    And that is exactly why most >$1000 bikes are lacking in many ways. Riders who actually use their
    bikes will probably replace most of them sooner or later, usually sooner.

    > > Big hairy deal. No, it isn't a good spec for the price.
    >
    > Yes it is. The claimed bike weight is sub-23lbs. Find another similarly-spec'd bike that light,
    > for that price, then we can talk. (You won't.)

    That house brand stem I stripped out last week was nice and light. It was still garbage, but it was
    light. If you have had better luck with house brand OEM parts, then more power to you. My experience
    has been that they are poor to mediocre in quality.

    > The fact is, you just trashed this bike by association, without ever having ridden it, and basing
    > *all* of your criticism on a lack of recognizable brand logos. That's the opposite of informed
    > evaluation, despite what you appear to believe.
    >
    > Who is the troll here?

    The parts that a company puts on the bike says a lot about the quality of it. You know it, I know
    it, and everyone but a complete newbie knows
    Ba. If a bike has a Thompson or even a Ritchey part, that tells me something. At least I can go to
    their web site and get pictures and a detailed description, and Google for some reviews and
    discussions about them. The link (and price) was for a mail order bike. This isn't the best way
    to buy a bike in the first place, but it is worse if it has a bunch of parts that there is no
    information about. If you can go to a bike shop and see this bike and get some idea of what the
    hell an M- wings part actually is, then that is another story. But then you wouldn't get that
    price at a LBS, would you?
     
  7. B. Sanders

    B. Sanders Guest

    "Super Slinky" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > B. Sanders said...
    >
    > > You're wrong. It's made in Canada, as are all Motobecane frames.
    >
    > I strongly doubt it. The parent company may be in Canada, but I poked around a little on their web
    > site and Google, and I saw no indication that they are made in Canada. A couple of people on the
    > MTBR boards said

    Oh, so saw the MTBR reviews, right? Actual owners really love this bike. They said the RST fork is
    great (which doesn't surprise me). What was the overall rating? 4.75 out of 5?

    MTBR ratings are not the only metric; but the comments were very positive. The bike looks like a
    great value to me, from what I've read so far.

    > > "Frame of the Year" from at least one cycling magazine (if you care
    about
    > > such things...)

    > Am I supposed to believe that Motobecane is better than a Foes, Ellsworth, or Titus?

    Show me an XT/XTR equipped sub-21-lb Foes, Ellsworth or Titus for under $1,000, then we can talk.
    Hell, show me a sub-21-lb bike for any amount of money and we can talk. There aren't too many of
    them out there. My $5,500 tricked-out Merlin hardtail was just a shade under 21-lbs.

    > > 1) The vast majority of bike parts are made in China or Taiwan,
    including
    > > Ritchey, Truvativ, FSA, Bontrager, even Shimano.
    >
    > What does that have to do with the house brand parts in question?

    > The vast majority of budget priced bike parts are made in Taiwan and China. Most of the better
    > ones aren't.

    Define "better ones."

    Look again. Nearly every brand is sourcing from Taiwan and China these days, not just low-end OEM.

    > But I never made any comment about where the parts were made, only the frame. But since you
    > brought it up, I'll point out that you make the asinine assumption that just because a part is
    > made in the same country, it is the exact same thing.

    You asserted that Chinese manufacturing is inferior. It was *you* who attempted to infer that
    products made in the same country are of similar (poor) quality by definition.

    > > 2) House-branded parts are standard on all sub-$1000 bikes from every
    brand.
    > > Where they are manufactured is irrelevant.
    >
    > And that is exactly why most >$1000 bikes are lacking in many ways. Riders who actually use their
    > bikes will probably replace most of them sooner or later, usually sooner.

    You're the king of FUD. Must be a bike salesman at a high-end shop (if not, you missed
    your calling).

    > > > Big hairy deal. No, it isn't a good spec for the price.
    > >
    > > Yes it is. The claimed bike weight is sub-23lbs. Find another similarly-spec'd bike that light,
    > > for that price, then we can talk. (You won't.)

    Correction: It's sub-21-lbs from the factory.

    > > The fact is, you just trashed this bike by association, without ever
    having
    > > ridden it, and basing *all* of your criticism on a lack of recognizable brand logos. That's the
    > > opposite of informed evaluation, despite what
    you
    > > appear to believe.
    > >
    > > Who is the troll here?
    >
    > The parts that a company puts on the bike says a lot about the quality of it. You know it, I know
    > it, and everyone but a complete newbie knows
    > it.

    It's the newbies that *only* use brand names to evaluate a bike - that's why they emblazon the brand
    names all over big-brand bikes. Those of us who have owned a few dozen bikes in every price range
    and for every purpose over a span of 30+ years have a much broader perspective.

    -=B=-
     
  8. Super Slinky

    Super Slinky Guest

    B. Sanders said...

    > Oh, so saw the MTBR reviews, right? Actual owners really love this bike. They said the RST fork is
    > great (which doesn't surprise me). What was the overall rating? 4.75 out of 5?
    >
    > MTBR ratings are not the only metric; but the comments were very positive. The bike looks like a
    > great value to me, from what I've read so far.

    OK, so you admit you were wrong on the country of origin. Since you changed the subject (you
    always seem to do that when you are wrong), most MTBR reviews are positive. It's notorious for
    that. Comments:

    Not sure, but the RST fork I think is not functioning

    was not impressed with the forks. Replaced them with Rock Shox Duke Race. Seat is a board,
    replaced it

    unbelievably crappy tires, some iffy house brand parts

    bars suck, tires are a joke...Wheels seem pretty crappy. About the first time I rode near rocks I
    flatted the front.

    Crap tires, wheels not quite true. the front fork vibrates forewards and backwards when braking
    hard up front

    > Show me an XT/XTR equipped sub-21-lb Foes, Ellsworth or Titus for under $1,000, then we can talk.
    > Hell, show me a sub-21-lb bike for any amount of money and we can talk. There aren't too many of
    > them out there. My $5,500 tricked-out Merlin hardtail was just a shade under 21-lbs.

    Again you resort to comedy. It has one XTR part, one XT part and a couple LX. Almost all the rest is
    that M-wings stuff, whatever it is. The fact that this company (and you, their unpaid lackey)
    advertises this as having an 'XTR mix' of components borders on fraud and is a telling sign of how
    cheesy the whole thing is.

    > Define "better ones."

    Thomson, RaceFace, Chris King, Mavic, Michelin, Time, Hayes, Hope, Hugi, Fox, Marzocchi,
    Shimano, etc, etc.

    > You asserted that Chinese manufacturing is inferior. It was *you* who attempted to infer that
    > products made in the same country are of similar (poor) quality by definition.

    Nope. I merely pointed out the self-evident fact that most low end parts are made there or in
    Taiwan. One is a fact, the other is an opinion. You are trying to attribute opinions to me that I
    didn't voice, but thanks again for proving your dishonesty. What you get for being the unpaid
    champion of cheese is beyond me, but it is an interesting spectacle nonetheless.

    > Correction: It's sub-21-lbs from the factory.

    So is my average bowel movement. Does that prove something about how well it is made?

    > It's the newbies that *only* use brand names to evaluate a bike - that's why they emblazon the
    > brand names all over big-brand bikes. Those of us who have owned a few dozen bikes in every price
    > range and for every purpose over a span of 30+ years have a much broader perspective.
    >
    > -=B=-

    You mean you have bought bikes for all that time and still haven't learned to steer clear of crap?
    Lots of people on these boards have been around bikes for lots of years and you are the only one who
    thinks that a $139 Walgoose is newsworthy. This cheesy bargain crap you keep posting about, complete
    with hijacked brand names from the distant past, is designed to deceive ignorant newbies. Why you
    keep telling us all that up is down and crap is king is something that only you can work out for
    yourself. I used to think JD was just picking on you. Now I am seeing that he must be right. You
    don't ride much or very aggressively and I'm skeptical about what you have really owned and used. Go
    impress the little kids next door with your 'custom bike' as you ride around the cul-de-sac at 3mph.
    I see from another post that you claim to have kill- filed me. Good, that means I can show your
    cheesy posts on cheesy bikes for what they are without generating more inane bullshit from you.
     
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