Motor bikes on bridleways



On 29 Mar 2006 02:06:20 -0800, squeaker <[email protected]> wrote:
> Clive George wrote:
> >
> > Play, not travel. At least be honest with yourself - motorbiking and 4x4ing
> > off-road isn't about travel, it's a recreational activity. As indeed is
> > mountain biking.

>
> Hang on a minute! People commute off-road on mountain bikes.


I wouldn't call commuting on a mountain bike 'mountain biking'. I
commute off-road (about 30% of my journey, on one of my two main
routes). I don't call it mountain-biking.

regards, Ian SMith
--
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|o o|
|/ \|
 
In article <[email protected]>, Mr R@t (2.30 zulu-india)
([email protected]) wrote:

> also the raves strayed from the path onto the farmers lands; ravers argued
> with the landowners, argued with the dog walkers/cyclists and argued with
> /each other/ - and it predicably often ended up in hordes of hairy-arsed
> coppers abruptly trying to put a stop to *everything*, and ASBOS being
> handed out left right and centre. Does it /always/ have to end this way?


It would seem so. See also "Festival, Stonehenge"

--
Dave Larrington - <http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/>
The entire population of Uxbridge has no idea that it actually doesn't
exist.
 
Dave Larrington wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, Mr R@t (2.30 zulu-india)
> ([email protected]) wrote:
>
>> also the raves strayed from the path onto the farmers lands; ravers
>> argued with the landowners, argued with the dog walkers/cyclists and
>> argued with /each other/ - and it predicably often ended up in
>> hordes of hairy-arsed coppers abruptly trying to put a stop to
>> *everything*, and ASBOS being handed out left right and centre. Does
>> it /always/ have to end this way?

>
> It would seem so. See also "Festival, Stonehenge"



indeed - perhaps a lesson can be learnt here.. the ultimate result of this
is that festivals now have to be licensed, regulated, controlled and a fat
ticket price paid most of which goes to paying for cops/stewards to nanny
everybody and arrest/rough up the odd few.

The same could end up happening to the 4x4 events or even dirt biking etc -
the Govt is already getting a big bee in its bonnet about *every* public
gathering having some sort of licensing structure and an individual in
charge who can be held accountable, and I daresay there are some of the
people who can afford 4x4s who may (albeit reluctantly) just decide that if
they have paid events then - by the "rule of the market" they can enforce
who can and can't be there (with the help of various hired enforcers
enforcers, hairy arses optional in the spirit of political correctness.)

However as others said with the Ridgeway there's not a lot which can be done
about the farmers; they have legally paid for the land and are using it to
contribute towards the local economy whilst others are mostly using it for
leisure (NB: I can't speak for other areas as I do not know them well
enough).

Hang on a sec though....

The Ridgeway has been around for years.....

Farmers and tractors have been around for years, as have bicycles,
motorcycles and Landrovers, and the 4x4s started IME appearing in the late
1980s.

Even the raves started in the early 1990s and its now 16 years down the
line..

So how come everyone is only whinging and moaning about all this *now?* As
far as I am concerned as long as people do not try to run me over/spray me
with mud and repair any damage they cause (such as the 4x4 owners carrying
materials up to the trail) I don't mind what people do on the public trails.

Alex
--
Mr R@T / General Lighting
Ipswich, Suffolk, Untied Kingdom
http://www.partyvibe.com
 
"Tony Raven" wrote
> There have been numerous attempts, none of which have really worked,
> mostly involving rotavating the surface and recompacting it but including
> tests of mixing cement powder in with the mud. Where they do this they
> often put in TROs to allow the ground to recover but found them churned up
> just the same. There are also now permanent seasonal TROs in places.
> Thinking it was breaches of the TROs that were continuing to damage the
> surface they found virtually no breaches but plenty of farm vehicles doing
> the damage.
>
> See
> http://www.nationaltrail.co.uk/ridgeway/article.asp?PageId=3&ArticleId=21
> for a recent TROs and http://makeashorterlink.com/?C3C222FDC for details
> of some of the restoration work.
>
>
> --
> Tony


Thanks for the update and the links.
--
mark
 
In article <[email protected]>, Mr R@t (2.30 zulu-india)
([email protected]) wrote:

> indeed - perhaps a lesson can be learnt here.. the ultimate result of this
> is that festivals now have to be licensed, regulated, controlled and a fat
> ticket price paid most of which goes to paying for cops/stewards to nanny
> everybody and arrest/rough up the odd few.


Mr. Sunshine writes:

"I used to go to the Stonehenge FREE festival, okay, so the music was a
bit dodgy (9hr versions of Silver Machine) but the drugs flowed freely,
and it was FUN. Unless the Hell's Angels rode their bikes over your tent
while you were still in it."

Sadly I missed the last one coz my mate's poxy Renault wouldn't start.

--
Dave Larrington - <http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/>
Historians' Right To Work Campaign - We Demand A Continuing Supply Of
History!
 

> Farmers and tractors have been around for years, as have bicycles,
> motorcycles and Landrovers, and the 4x4s started IME appearing in the late
> 1980s.
>
> Even the raves started in the early 1990s and its now 16 years down the
> line..
>
> So how come everyone is only whinging and moaning about all this *now?* As
> far as I am concerned as long as people do not try to run me over/spray me
> with mud and repair any damage they cause (such as the 4x4 owners carrying
> materials up to the trail) I don't mind what people do on the public trails.
>
> Alex


I'm 'whinging and moaning about all this *now' cos its recent in our
area. The first lardrover convoy appeared about 5 to years ago on a
green track which had previously been unchanged for 100s of years I
would expect. I thought it might be a one off - a military exercise or
something.
But they kept coming back.
That track and many others got gradually turned into scramble courses
for 4x4s and unuseable by anybody else esp in the wet when the mud and
the pot holes would be impossible.
It had lighter moments - I encountered one bewildered lardarser with
his lardrover stuck in a pothole whilst being berated by a farmer who
couldn't get past, and also being roundly abused by several walkers and
cyclists who were dismayed at the damage, I managed to have a word with
him and he said he had only just bought the twatmobile and this was his
first excursion, following a group of like-minded morons who were now
fields away spoiling another bit of countryside.
He clearly felt he wasn't responsible for the hole he was in as this
was his first visit to Derbyshire ever. I like to think we may have
given him food for thought but I doubt it as he didn't look very bright
- they are all dozy twats or they wouldn't be there.
One positive thing however is that farmers, cyclists, walkers and many
other country lovers now feel that they are on the same side against
the lardrover vandals.

cheers

Jacob
 
in message <[email protected]>, Tony Raven
('[email protected]') wrote:

> [email protected] wrote:
>>
>> There are 2 options; either to hard surface miles of green lanes to
>> enable everybody to use them, not only 4x4 drivers, or to exclude
>> traffic as appropriate to the surface in question e.g ban all powered
>> vehicles except for necessary access only.

>
> I think that is a dangerous path to go down. Remember that cyclists
> are there by recent consent, not established right,


Ah, yes, of course. You are a resident on the benighted part of this
island. In the enlightened part, cyclists are there by statutory right,
for values of 'there' which include 95% of the total land surface.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

Morning had broken. I found a rather battered tube of Araldite
resin in the bottom of the toolbag.
 
[email protected] wrote:

> One positive thing however is that farmers, cyclists, walkers and many
> other country lovers now feel that they are on the same side against
> the lardrover vandals.
>


thanks - I understand now as being down South the 4x4s appear to have been
around a bit longer; perhaps because some people have more spare cash and
less sense.

On the Ridgeway I got the impression a few years ago that *because* of the
conflicts the black rats (traffic cops) started taking an interest in the
off road trails; investigating *all* use of vehicles for "inappropriate
events" and finding that the dirt bikers and 4x4s were breaking *more* laws
than the ravers! (Raves are still only illegal when they make too much
noise or are held on private land without the owners permission...)

OTOH from speaking to certain friends I get an impression that some of the
4x4 owners/dirt bikers retailiated by grassing up stuff like raves -
particularly as the extra traffic and people in the area meant they had to
change their routes or (shock, horror) /slow down/!

Alex
--
Mr R@T / General Lighting
Ipswich, Suffolk, Untied Kingdom
http://www.partyvibe.com
 
in message <[email protected]>, 2.30 zulu-india\ ('"Mr R@t \')
wrote:

> However as others said with the Ridgeway there's not a lot which can be
> done about the farmers; they have legally paid for the land and are
> using it to contribute towards the local economy whilst others are
> mostly using it for leisure (NB: I can't speak for other areas as I do
> not know them well enough).


Land is not something that people made. It became property through a
series of acts of enclosure, some of pretty dodgy legitimacy, because in
the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries the government perceived that
there was a public policy advantage in it becoming property (vis and to
whit, they gave it to one another and got richer; and, arguably, in its
enclosed state it grew more food per unit labour and thus increased the
wealth of the nation - although at great cost to the rural poor). Just
as acts of parliament made it property, acts of parliament could unmake
it as property. More specifically, the government could - and in my
opinion should - tax land holding.

But beyond that, farmers do not 'contribute to the local economy'. Far
from it. I don't know what the position is in England, but here in
Scotland the average farmer receives £26,000 per annum straight from the
taxpayer, yet claims to make a profit of only £8,000; which is another
way of saying the average farmer pisses £18,000 of your tax money
straight down the drain. In remote rural areas with depressed wages, the
fact that the poor are paying taxes to keep the rich in new Range Rovers
strikes me as a a grotesque inequity.

Yes, of course, inevitably, living where I live, I have quite a few
friends who are farmers. But they all pretty much know what I think.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
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Ian Smith wrote:

>
> I think it is entirely reasonable to restrict (or ban) one minority
> class of users if it responsible for not only hindering but preventing
> the use by others.
>


Round our way, horses churning it up make them impassible. What do you
suggest there?

--
Tony

"The best way I know of to win an argument is to start by being in the
right."
- Lord Hailsham
 
Ian Smith wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Mar 2006, Tony Raven <[email protected]> wrote:
>> That is what we have already and they are called Byways Open to All
>> Traffic. Motorised vehicles can use less than 2% of the PRoW network

>
>
> Can you substantiate that? Basically, I don't believe it - I think
> motorised vehicles have access to teh majority of rights of way - I
> think tehre are mor roads than footpaths+bridleways+other oddities.
>
> regards, Ian SMith


Roads are not classed as Public Rights of Way in case that was your point.

The figures for Public Rights of Way are:
Footpaths 146,335km
Bridleways 32,399km
RUPP* 5,963km
BOAT 3,749km
Total 188746km
Source: Countryside Agency)

* Now reclassified as Restricted Byways with any motor vehicle rights
extinguished


--
Tony

"The best way I know of to win an argument is to start by being in the
right."
- Lord Hailsham
 
Simon Brooke wrote:

>
> Ah, yes, of course. You are a resident on the benighted part of this
> island. In the enlightened part, cyclists are there by statutory right,
> for values of 'there' which include 95% of the total land surface.
>


ITYM "very recently enlightened". February 2005 wasn't it when you
emerged from a very much darker dark age?

--
Tony

"The best way I know of to win an argument is to start by being in the
right."
- Lord Hailsham
 
On Wed, 29 Mar 2006 18:22:36 +0100, Tony Raven <[email protected]> wrote:
> Ian Smith wrote:
>
> > I think it is entirely reasonable to restrict (or ban) one minority
> > class of users if it responsible for not only hindering but preventing
> > the use by others.

>
> Round our way, horses churning it up make them impassible. What do you
> suggest there?


I only know of one length of track that's churned up badly by horses -
and even taht is rideable on a bike (just jarringly uncomfortable).
It's awkward and slower on foot that a horse-free track, but not
impassable on foot. As such, I'd say live with it.

The tracks that get thrashed by motorised vehicles, however, are
impassable by bike or on foot (with teh possible exception of teh
bog-snorkelers amongst us). It is this extreme damage, which makes
tracks unuseable by other modes, to which I am referring (explicitly
so, and you quoted me saying as much).

regards, Ian SMith
--
|\ /| no .sig
|o o|
|/ \|
 
Tony Raven wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
> >
> > There are 2 options; either to hard surface miles of green lanes to
> > enable everybody to use them, not only 4x4 drivers, or to exclude
> > traffic as appropriate to the surface in question e.g ban all powered
> > vehicles except for necessary access only.

>
> I think that is a dangerous path to go down.


Why? Cyclists, horses and carts and other things are banned from
motorways and nobody objects. The idea of limiting the use of roads to
appropriate vehicles is well established and quite uncontroversial.
Barring motorised vehicles entirely from certain tracks is not
different and would be accepted by all (except the lardies!).

cheers

Jacob
 
Simon Brooke wrote:
> in message <[email protected]>, 2.30 zulu-india\ ('"Mr R@t \')
> wrote:
>
>> However as others said with the Ridgeway there's not a lot which can
>> be done about the farmers; they have legally paid for the land and
>> are using it to contribute towards the local economy whilst others
>> are mostly using it for leisure (NB: I can't speak for other areas
>> as I do not know them well enough).

>
> Land is not something that people made. It became property through a
> series of acts of enclosure, some of pretty dodgy legitimacy,


<snip>

This I am aware of ; and the particular hardships that accompanied enclosure
in Scotland and the colonisation of the area by lairds who drove out the
natives in favour of sheep etc. This they did to my ancestors in Malaysia
(except without the sheep). I even have a rather battered paperback book
about this (and social problems of rural Scotland in the 1930s) which I
picked up in some charity shop in Reading, being bored at lunchtime and
wanting something to read.

A friend of mine is rather like yourself (even around the same age) and has
expounded at great length about the injustices inherent in the remnants of
the feudal system; and I agree with much of what you are saying. On the
subject of subsidies, here in England the farmers have mostly got 100% of
f**k all at the moment as the computer system intended to pay them went The
Way of the Pear, they are decreasing anyway and farmers are /(finally)/
being forced to think about the environmental damage their business methods
often cause (not without much whinging).

However back to the Ridgeway in SE/SW England, in the 21st century. I've
checked out a lot of the farms and local businesses around there whilst
researching the background behind a rave organiser getting an ASBO; and
found that although large landowners *do* own the ultimate title to the
land; most of it is rented to smaller businesses which have to shoulder the
business risk - they *are* being squeezed by competition from cheaper
imports/all the usual stuff; and like it or not these local yokels do employ
people in the vicinity and have enough power to play nimby when they see the
Great Unwashed on their land in any kind of wheeled contrivance or even on
foot (like any other middle englander does nowadays) but at the same time
all the leisure users are just fighting one another...

What I am getting at is that the actual right of access to this land is
fragile enough as it is and all the conflict just seems to end up in yet
*another* activity being banned/controlled/nannied. I personally think the
fears of nimbys *are* mostly tinfoil helmet style paranoia - but self
regulation isn't working for anybody and multiple wrongs aren't making
anything right. But does anyone have a solution rather than just a
complaint?

Alex

--
Mr R@T / General Lighting
Ipswich, Suffolk, Untied Kingdom
http://www.partyvibe.com
 
[email protected] wrote:
>
> Why? Cyclists, horses and carts and other things are banned from
> motorways and nobody objects. The idea of limiting the use of roads to
> appropriate vehicles is well established and quite uncontroversial.
> Barring motorised vehicles entirely from certain tracks is not
> different and would be accepted by all (except the lardies!).
>


Motorways were never open to cyclists from the start just as bridleways
have never been open to motor vehicles. The slippery slope is as soon
as you start to remove existing rights from one group, you open yourself
up to having your own rights removed. And there are plenty of ramblers,
farmers and park managers who would be more than happy to see cyclists'
rights removed.


--
Tony

"The best way I know of to win an argument is to start by being in the
right."
- Lord Hailsham
 
On 2006-03-27 21:16:25 +0100, "al Mossah"
<[email protected]> said:

> Last year on a bridleway near Corsham in Wiltshire I saw a notice
> concerning an application to convert the bridleway to a BOAT (By-way
> open to all traffic). I registered an objection to the application
> with the local council. The applicant was an organisation known as the
> Trail Riders Federation.


>

I know that the TRF have placed a large number of applications in
Gloucestershire, mainly for Rupps to be reclassified as BOATs, most of
the tracks are muddy enough in the winter and the last thing they need
is 4x4's using them.

Martin
 
Martin O'Loughlin wrote:
>
> I know that the TRF have placed a large number of applications in
> Gloucestershire, mainly for Rupps to be reclassified as BOATs, most of
> the tracks are muddy enough in the winter and the last thing they need
> is 4x4's using them.
>


RUPPS are variable - some had motorised vehicle rights and some did't.
Under the CRoW Act 2000 they are all automatically reclassified as
Restricted Byways which have no motor vehicle rights. However anyone
with evidence of previous motor vehicle rights can apply for an order to
have them changed into BOATS to reinstate those rights (CRoW Act 2000
PtII ss47-52).

I think all you are seeing is moves for this reinstatement of rights
following their recent automatic removal by CRoW rather than seeking to
create new rights.

--
Tony

"The best way I know of to win an argument is to start by being in the
right."
- Lord Hailsham
 
in message <[email protected]>, Tony Raven
('[email protected]') wrote:

> Simon Brooke wrote:
>
>> Ah, yes, of course. You are a resident on the benighted part of this
>> island. In the enlightened part, cyclists are there by statutory
>> right, for values of 'there' which include 95% of the total land
>> surface.

>
> ITYM "very recently enlightened". February 2005 wasn't it when you
> emerged from a very much darker dark age?


Not that I recall. We always could go anywhere unless the landowner had
previously applied to a court for an injunction against a named
individual; it's only that right of the landowner that's been taken away
(and at the same time the right to take a bicycle has been written into
the legislation).

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

((DoctorWho)ChristopherEccleston).act();
uk.co.bbc.TypecastException: actor does not want to be typecast.
[adapted from autofile on /., 31/03/05]
 
Simon Brooke wrote:
> in message <[email protected]>, 2.30 zulu-india\ ('"Mr R@t \')
> wrote:
>
>
>>However as others said with the Ridgeway there's not a lot which can be
>>done about the farmers; they have legally paid for the land and are
>>using it to contribute towards the local economy whilst others are
>>mostly using it for leisure (NB: I can't speak for other areas as I do
>>not know them well enough).

>
>
> Land is not something that people made. It became property through a
> series of acts of enclosure, some of pretty dodgy legitimacy, because in
> the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries the government perceived that
> there was a public policy advantage in it becoming property (vis and to
> whit, they gave it to one another and got richer; and, arguably, in its
> enclosed state it grew more food per unit labour and thus increased the
> wealth of the nation - although at great cost to the rural poor).


Erm, that goes back a great deal further, albeit in a different form.
The biggest thug (aka the King) owned the land, and dished out parcels
to his henchmen (Barons in England; other titles such as Þeigns in
your part of the world). And so on down. That system is still,
in part, with us, both in law and (through inheritance) in wealth.

Just
> as acts of parliament made it property, acts of parliament could unmake
> it as property. More specifically, the government could - and in my
> opinion should - tax land holding.


Agreed, absolutely. Land is *serious* wealth. But it also has Power
where it really matters (including the media). So instead, we get
campaigns against the remaining taxes on or related to land -
such as inheritance tax, council tax (an anomaly because it applies
to non-owners too) and stamp duty. Protect unearned wealth, and tax
the earnings of the hard-working instead!

Of course, land used for the public good (e.g. access, nature,
wind farm) is a valid reason to offer incentives back to landowners,
and in deserving cases such payments might exceed the tax payable.
That's another matter.

> But beyond that, farmers do not 'contribute to the local economy'. Far
> from it. I don't know what the position is in England, but here in
> Scotland the average farmer receives £26,000 per annum straight from the
> taxpayer, yet claims to make a profit of only £8,000;


*sigh* You know very well that *profit* is exactly what you want it
to be. If it suited them, Microsoft could declare a profit of "only"
£8000 on its billions of turnover - for example, by paying more in
salaries and benefits.

--
not me guv
 

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