motorbikes in cycle lanes

Discussion in 'UK and Europe' started by Rich, Mar 24, 2005.

  1. Rich

    Rich Guest

    Just had the following letter published in the local paper. Incredibly,
    they didn't edit a word!

    It was in response to being undetaken by a motorcycle at traffic lights for
    the second time. Given the govt's National Motorcycle Strategy, which
    postulates allowing motorcycles in all bus lanes, I thought it was apposite.

    http://www.epost.co.uk/displayNode....yContent&sourceNode=145048&contentPK=12084284

    11:00 - 22 March 2005
    The Evening Post has rightly published many letters about people who
    cycle on pavements, something no responsible cyclist does. Without wishing
    to provide excuses for those who do ride on the pavement, may I put forward
    a compelling reason as to why some cyclists do it: motorcycles.

    The council's decision to allow motorcycles in bus lanes, with no
    consultation with the cyclists who were already allowed in them, seems to
    have led to a conception among motorcyclists that they can now use any cycle
    facility, including cycle lanes, advanced stop lines at traffic lights, and
    even cycle parking.

    As someone who has recently had the terrifying experience of being
    undertaken by a motorcycle at traffic lights, I can assure Po s t readers
    that motorcycles and bicycles do not mix.

    Motorcyclists, like cyclists, are vulnerable, but making themselves
    safer at the expense of the safety of others is not acceptable, just as
    cyclists riding on the pavement is unacceptable. Unfortunately the first
    leads directly to the second.

    The problem of motorcyclists using cycle facilities has expanded in
    the past year or so, and it is now frequently impossible for a cyclist to
    use cycle lanes, advanced stop lines and even cycle racks because they are
    full of motorcycles. It is hardly surprising that some cyclists feel safer
    on the pavement.

    The police, in response to a request to take action on this serious
    problem, refused to do so on the grounds that nobody had yet died, and
    therefore it wasn't a problem.

    My own experience, and that of many others, demonstrates that it is
    only a matter of time before someone is killed.

    Why should we have to wait for a body before action is taken?

    I call upon the police to take action to curb this misuse of cycle
    facilities, and on the council to review its decision to allow motorcycles
    in bus lanes, but to consult cyclists this time.

    I also call on motorcycle organisations to educate their members and
    on the Motorcycle Action Group in particular to drop its stated aim of
    gaining access to all cycle facilities.

    Richard Burton, CTC right-to-ride, Little Stoke, Bristol.




    --
    cheers

    Richard Burton
     
    Tags:


  2. Fish

    Fish Guest


    >
    >

    http://www.epost.co.uk/displayNode....yContent&sourceNode=145048&contentPK=12084284
    >
    > 11:00 - 22 March 2005
    > The Evening Post has rightly published many letters about people who
    > cycle on pavements, something no responsible cyclist does. Without wishing
    > to provide excuses for those who do ride on the pavement, may I put

    forward
    > a compelling reason as to why some cyclists do it: motorcycles.
    >
    > The council's decision to allow motorcycles in bus lanes, with no
    > consultation with the cyclists who were already allowed in them, seems to
    > have led to a conception among motorcyclists that they can now use any

    cycle
    > facility, including cycle lanes, advanced stop lines at traffic lights,

    and
    > even cycle parking.
    >
    > As someone who has recently had the terrifying experience of being
    > undertaken by a motorcycle at traffic lights, I can assure Po s t readers
    > that motorcycles and bicycles do not mix.
    >
    > Motorcyclists, like cyclists, are vulnerable, but making themselves
    > safer at the expense of the safety of others is not acceptable, just as
    > cyclists riding on the pavement is unacceptable. Unfortunately the first
    > leads directly to the second.
    >
    > The problem of motorcyclists using cycle facilities has expanded in
    > the past year or so, and it is now frequently impossible for a cyclist to
    > use cycle lanes, advanced stop lines and even cycle racks because they are
    > full of motorcycles. It is hardly surprising that some cyclists feel safer
    > on the pavement.
    >
    > The police, in response to a request to take action on this serious
    > problem, refused to do so on the grounds that nobody had yet died, and
    > therefore it wasn't a problem.
    >
    > My own experience, and that of many others, demonstrates that it is
    > only a matter of time before someone is killed.
    >
    > Why should we have to wait for a body before action is taken?
    >
    > I call upon the police to take action to curb this misuse of cycle
    > facilities, and on the council to review its decision to allow motorcycles
    > in bus lanes, but to consult cyclists this time.
    >
    > I also call on motorcycle organisations to educate their members and
    > on the Motorcycle Action Group in particular to drop its stated aim of
    > gaining access to all cycle facilities.
    >
    > Richard Burton, CTC right-to-ride, Little Stoke, Bristol.
    >

    In responce to this ( I feel I should defend my kind) As with cyclist's and
    car's there are a few who will instist on breaking the rules and giving a
    bad name to everyone else and I feel that this attack on motorcyclists in
    general is wrong as car's also use the advanced stop lanes and more ofeten
    than not bus lanes. I am forced to ask the question what were you doing to
    be in the position to be undertaken? A cyclist should rarely venture far
    away from the curb (remember I am a cyclist so I know this is true) esp not
    far enough away from the curb to be undertaken by anything

    The reason motorcyclists use the advanced stop lanes is because before they
    were invented we used to be able to creap through the traffic and position
    outselfs infrount of the car's but without endangering anyone... now when we
    creap through the traffic we find ourself's faced with a set of advanced
    stop lines so we either venture into the advanced stop lines or leave
    ourselfs in a dangerous position between two cars.

    Im not nessercarily condoning this practice but it isnt illegal to creap
    between traffic when it is stopped and therefore I feel that the advanced
    stop lines should be shared with the priority going to cyclists if the
    advanced stop lines are full or filling up.

    But I reapeat !!! what the hell were you doing that far away from the curb?

    Remember that Motorcyclists are more aware of the road and there
    surrounding's .. (you have to be to pass the test) and although there may be
    some who act recklessly and dangerously the majority of motorcyclists are
    safe, considerate and friendly. The same can be said for cyclists and car
    driver's it is always but a few that give the majority a bad name.
     
  3. Pete Biggs

    Pete Biggs Guest

    Of all the "terrifying" road users, despite the noise, motorcyclists are
    at the bottom of my list. Other cyclists bother me more, really... and
    they don't bother me much!

    ~PB
     
  4. davek

    davek Guest

    Fish wrote:
    > But I reapeat !!! what the hell were you doing that far away from the

    curb?

    Check your facts.

    Like motorcyclists, and indeed cars, he's entitled to ride anywhere
    across the full width of the lane, which is what the white lines are
    there to indicate.

    d.
     
  5. Richard

    Richard Guest

    Fish wrote:
    > I am forced to ask the question what were you doing to
    > be in the position to be undertaken? A cyclist should rarely venture far
    > away from the curb (remember I am a cyclist so I know this is true) esp not
    > far enough away from the curb to be undertaken by anything


    Evidently you're not a very experienced cyclist. The primary position
    (1/2 to 2/3 way across the width of the lane from the left) is the
    recommended [1] position when you need to control the traffic behind
    you, eg in narrow lane situations.

    > Im not nessercarily condoning this practice but it isnt illegal to creap
    > between traffic when it is stopped and therefore I feel that the advanced
    > stop lines should be shared with the priority going to cyclists if the
    > advanced stop lines are full or filling up.


    And if there are eg three motorbikes in the ASL and I arrive on my bike,
    how do you suggest they give me priority? Perhaps they should reverse
    back?

    R.

    [1] in "Cyclecraft", John Franklin, HMSO.
     
  6. David Martin

    David Martin Guest

    On 24/3/05 1:54 pm, in article [email protected], "Fish"
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    I am forced to ask the question what were you doing to
    > be in the position to be undertaken? A cyclist should rarely venture far
    > away from the curb (remember I am a cyclist so I know this is true) esp not
    > far enough away from the curb to be undertaken by anything


    Rubbish. If I am riding past a parked car, leaving enough room to not be
    'doored', there is space for a motorcycle to creep through on the inside.

    If I am riding along the road keeping out of the broken glass and grit in
    the gutter, adopting the HMG mandated primary position, there is room for a
    motorcycle to pass inside of me.

    If I am about to turn right and move out to the middle of the road, there is
    room for a motor cycle to pass inside me. In some cases there is room for a
    bus.



    > The reason motorcyclists use the advanced stop lanes is because before they
    > were invented we used to be able to creap through the traffic and position
    > outselfs infrount of the car's but without endangering anyone...

    I think you will find that motorcycles have been around a lot longer than
    the motor vehicle congestion.

    > now when we
    > creap through the traffic we find ourself's faced with a set of advanced
    > stop lines so we either venture into the advanced stop lines or leave
    > ourselfs in a dangerous position between two cars.


    SO you are just as illegal as before, crossing the stop line.

    > Im not nessercarily condoning this practice but it isnt illegal to creap
    > between traffic when it is stopped and therefore I feel that the advanced
    > stop lines should be shared with the priority going to cyclists if the
    > advanced stop lines are full or filling up.


    Oh right, so how do you get your motorcycle out of the ASL when a load of
    cyclists turn up behind you?

    > But I reapeat !!! what the hell were you doing that far away from the curb?


    Riding a bike, legally and properly.

    >
    > Remember that Motorcyclists are more aware of the road and there
    > surrounding's .. (you have to be to pass the test) and although there may be
    > some who act recklessly and dangerously the majority of motorcyclists are
    > safe, considerate and friendly. The same can be said for cyclists and car
    > driver's it is always but a few that give the majority a bad name.


    It only takes one..

    ...d
     
  7. Clive George

    Clive George Guest

    "Fish" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]

    > A cyclist should rarely venture far
    > away from the curb (remember I am a cyclist so I know this is true) esp

    not
    > far enough away from the curb to be undertaken by anything


    I suggest you check up on what you think you know. "Cyclecraft" is a good
    written source, as would be a decent cycle training course, eg the ones by
    Patrick Field.
    The truth is a cyclist should rarely venture near the curb - typical riding
    position is in the left hand wheel track of cars, or three feet from the
    curb, or further out to the right if necessary.

    > But I reapeat !!! what the hell were you doing that far away from the

    curb?

    And I repeat !!! Go and learn about this from somebody more experienced.

    clive
     
  8. vernon levy

    vernon levy Guest


    > In responce to this ( I feel I should defend my kind) As with cyclist's

    and
    > car's there are a few who will instist on breaking the rules and giving a
    > bad name to everyone else and I feel that this attack on motorcyclists in
    > general is wrong as car's also use the advanced stop lanes and more ofeten
    > than not bus lanes. I am forced to ask the question what were you doing to
    > be in the position to be undertaken? A cyclist should rarely venture far
    > away from the curb (remember I am a cyclist so I know this is true) esp

    not
    > far enough away from the curb to be undertaken by anything


    I am a cyclist, motor cyclist and a school teacher. Your 'what
    about'....(car drivers'
    transgressions) is all too familiar as a diversionary tactic used by
    truculent pupils to
    justify their own school rule/law breaking as typified by Vicky Pollard in
    Little Britain
    who personifies the refusal to accept personal responsibilityfor one's own
    poor behaviour.
    Motor cyclists are not allowed to use advanced stop lines no matter what
    other motorised
    transport does with them. As for not straying far from the curb, I suggest
    that your own
    road positioning is, in fact, wrong. Clearly you need to read Cyclecraft by
    John Franklin,
    HMSO or take some cycle training. The road craft that you have acquired
    from
    motorcycle training has not been transferred to your cycling. Mug up on it
    and discover
    the errors in your assertions.
    >
    > The reason motorcyclists use the advanced stop lanes is because before

    they
    > were invented we used to be able to creap through the traffic and position
    > outselfs infrount of the car's but without endangering anyone... now when

    we
    > creap through the traffic we find ourself's faced with a set of advanced
    > stop lines so we either venture into the advanced stop lines or leave
    > ourselfs in a dangerous position between two cars.


    The answer is simple....don't use the stop lines and don't put yourself in a
    position of
    danger. A no-brainer really.
    >
    > Im not nessercarily condoning this practice but it isnt illegal to creap
    > between traffic when it is stopped and therefore I feel that the advanced
    > stop lines should be shared with the priority going to cyclists if the
    > advanced stop lines are full or filling up.


    An opinion of what should be legal does not legitimise illegal actions.
    >
    > But I reapeat !!! what the hell were you doing that far away from the

    curb?

    Probably using the lane legitimately. The undertaking was probably illegal.
    >
    > Remember that Motorcyclists are more aware of the road and there
    > surrounding's .. (you have to be to pass the test) and although there may

    be
    > some who act recklessly and dangerously the majority of motorcyclists are
    > safe, considerate and friendly. The same can be said for cyclists and car
    > driver's it is always but a few that give the majority a bad name.


    Motorcyclists are not necessarily more aware of their surroundings than
    other
    road users nor is it a prerequisite to pass the test. Motorcyclists are not
    more
    highly skilled users of the roads in my estimation based on my observations
    of
    the positioning and behaviour of the small capacity scooter/motor cycle
    riders
    over the past few year who represent the majority of motorised two wheel
    users
    that I encounter on a daily basis.

    To recap:
    No matter what your assertions about the skills and attitudes of
    motorcyclists,
    trangressions by other road users, and silliness of the law is, there is no
    justification for motorcyclists using advanced stop lines and undertaking
    cyclists.

    Off for a gentle pootle on my CB500 now.
    A couple of days of cycle touring/camping beckons for the weekend.

    Vernon in Leeds
     
  9. MartinM

    MartinM Guest

    "davek" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > Fish wrote:
    > > But I reapeat !!! what the hell were you doing that far away from the

    > curb?
    >
    > Check your facts.
    >
    > Like motorcyclists, and indeed cars, he's entitled to ride anywhere
    > across the full width of the lane, which is what the white lines are
    > there to indicate.


    But as he says in a previous post, some of us are born roadies and some not
    ;-)
     
  10. Vivian

    Vivian Guest

    I met this guy...

    --
    Vivian
    -------
    "We learned more from a three minute record than we ever learned in school".
    No Surrender

    "Rich" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > Just had the following letter published in the local paper. Incredibly,
    > they didn't edit a word!
    >
    > It was in response to being undetaken by a motorcycle at traffic lights

    for
    > the second time. Given the govt's National Motorcycle Strategy, which
    > postulates allowing motorcycles in all bus lanes, I thought it was

    apposite.
    >
    >

    http://www.epost.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=145367&command=displayContent&
    sourceNode=145048&contentPK=12084284
    >
    > 11:00 - 22 March 2005
    > The Evening Post has rightly published many letters about people who
    > cycle on pavements, something no responsible cyclist does. Without wishing
    > to provide excuses for those who do ride on the pavement, may I put

    forward
    > a compelling reason as to why some cyclists do it: motorcycles.
    >
    > The council's decision to allow motorcycles in bus lanes, with no
    > consultation with the cyclists who were already allowed in them, seems to
    > have led to a conception among motorcyclists that they can now use any

    cycle
    > facility, including cycle lanes, advanced stop lines at traffic lights,

    and
    > even cycle parking.
    >
    > As someone who has recently had the terrifying experience of being
    > undertaken by a motorcycle at traffic lights, I can assure Po s t readers
    > that motorcycles and bicycles do not mix.
    >
    > Motorcyclists, like cyclists, are vulnerable, but making themselves
    > safer at the expense of the safety of others is not acceptable, just as
    > cyclists riding on the pavement is unacceptable. Unfortunately the first
    > leads directly to the second.
    >
    > The problem of motorcyclists using cycle facilities has expanded in
    > the past year or so, and it is now frequently impossible for a cyclist to
    > use cycle lanes, advanced stop lines and even cycle racks because they are
    > full of motorcycles. It is hardly surprising that some cyclists feel safer
    > on the pavement.
    >
    > The police, in response to a request to take action on this serious
    > problem, refused to do so on the grounds that nobody had yet died, and
    > therefore it wasn't a problem.
    >
    > My own experience, and that of many others, demonstrates that it is
    > only a matter of time before someone is killed.
    >
    > Why should we have to wait for a body before action is taken?
    >
    > I call upon the police to take action to curb this misuse of cycle
    > facilities, and on the council to review its decision to allow motorcycles
    > in bus lanes, but to consult cyclists this time.
    >
    > I also call on motorcycle organisations to educate their members and
    > on the Motorcycle Action Group in particular to drop its stated aim of
    > gaining access to all cycle facilities.
    >
    > Richard Burton, CTC right-to-ride, Little Stoke, Bristol.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > --
    > cheers
    >
    > Richard Burton
    >
    >
     
  11. Ian Smith

    Ian Smith Guest

    On Thu, 24 Mar 2005, Fish <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > A cyclist should rarely venture far
    > away from the curb (remember I am a cyclist so I know this is true) esp not
    > far enough away from the curb to be undertaken by anything


    Bollocks. Complete and utter.
    Go away, learn about the primary riding position and then try again.

    regards, Ian SMith
    --
    |\ /| no .sig
    |o o|
    |/ \|
     
  12. Paulmouk

    Paulmouk Guest

    "Fish" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > > 11:00 - 22 March 2005
    > > The Evening Post has rightly published many letters about people

    who
    > > cycle on pavements, something no responsible cyclist does. Without

    wishing
    > > to provide excuses for those who do ride on the pavement, may I put

    > forward

    ....
    ....
    ....
    ....
    facilities, and on the council to review its decision to allow motorcycles
    > > in bus lanes, but to consult cyclists this time.
    > >
    > > I also call on motorcycle organisations to educate their members

    and
    > > on the Motorcycle Action Group in particular to drop its stated aim of
    > > gaining access to all cycle facilities.
    > >
    > > Richard Burton, CTC right-to-ride, Little Stoke, Bristol.



    > In responce to this ( I feel I should defend my kind) As with cyclist's

    and
    > car's there are a few who will instist on breaking the rules and giving a
    > bad name to everyone else and I feel that this attack on motorcyclists in
    > general is wrong as car's also use the advanced stop lanes and more ofeten

    ....
    ....
    ....
    ....
    > Remember that Motorcyclists are more aware of the road and there
    > surrounding's .. (you have to be to pass the test)


    Most adult cyclists hold a driving licence and most are car owners so they
    must also have 'be to pass the test'.

    Paul.
     
  13. "Rich" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > Just had the following letter published in the local paper. Incredibly,
    > they didn't edit a word!
    >
    > It was in response to being undetaken by a motorcycle at traffic lights
    > for the second time. Given the govt's National Motorcycle Strategy, which
    > postulates allowing motorcycles in all bus lanes, I thought it was
    > apposite.


    Actually I don't care if motorcycles are allowed to use bus lanes and
    advance stop lines anyway - so far as the latter are concerned they often
    already do.

    Rich
     
  14. Fish

    Fish Guest

    "davek" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > Fish wrote:
    > > But I reapeat !!! what the hell were you doing that far away from the

    > curb?
    >
    > Check your facts.
    >
    > Like motorcyclists, and indeed cars, he's entitled to ride anywhere
    > across the full width of the lane, which is what the white lines are
    > there to indicate.
    >

    I never said that you were not allowed although this is debateable all I was
    saying that if you are going to insist on putting yourself in that dangerous
    position you kinda have to expect danger. The first thing they teach you in
    a road cycling course is that the safest place is about 18" away from the
    curb which is nowhere near enough room for any motorbike to undertake.
     
  15. Fish

    Fish Guest

    (snip)
    >
    > > In responce to this ( I feel I should defend my kind) As with cyclist's

    > and
    > > car's there are a few who will instist on breaking the rules and giving

    a
    > > bad name to everyone else and I feel that this attack on motorcyclists

    in
    > > general is wrong as car's also use the advanced stop lanes and more

    ofeten
    > ...
    > ...
    > ...
    > ...
    > > Remember that Motorcyclists are more aware of the road and there
    > > surrounding's .. (you have to be to pass the test)

    >
    > Most adult cyclists hold a driving licence and most are car owners so they
    > must also have 'be to pass the test'.
    >

    Trust me the motorcycle test is harder as far as observation goes.
     
  16. On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 21:27:50 -0000, "Fish"
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >position you kinda have to expect danger. The first thing they teach you in
    >a road cycling course is that the safest place is about 18" away from the
    >curb which is nowhere near enough room for any motorbike to undertake.


    Strange how the stats don't support that. Perhaps your cycling
    instructor was a white van driver in disguise?


    --
    Microsoft Sam speaks his mind:
    www.artybee.net/sam_speaks_his_mind.mp3
     
  17. Fish

    Fish Guest

    "Richard" <[email protected]> wrote in
    message news:[email protected]
    > Fish wrote:
    > > I am forced to ask the question what were you doing to
    > > be in the position to be undertaken? A cyclist should rarely venture far
    > > away from the curb (remember I am a cyclist so I know this is true) esp

    not
    > > far enough away from the curb to be undertaken by anything

    >
    > Evidently you're not a very experienced cyclist. The primary position
    > (1/2 to 2/3 way across the width of the lane from the left) is the
    > recommended [1] position when you need to control the traffic behind
    > you, eg in narrow lane situations.


    I have never in my life met a person who when cycling on his own rides in
    the middle of the lane I suspect that he would get pulled over by the police
    and requested to ride more consideratly even though they coulnt actually do
    anything about it they wouldnt be happy. and if your 2/3 off to the left
    then you will be undertaken probably by cars and motorbikes and busses and
    lorries and pretty much everything else on the road. No doubt you do have
    the right to ride whereever you like on the road but I am sure that
    unessercarily causeing a obstuction on a public road is illegal.
    >
    > > Im not nessercarily condoning this practice but it isnt illegal to creap
    > > between traffic when it is stopped and therefore I feel that the

    advanced
    > > stop lines should be shared with the priority going to cyclists if the
    > > advanced stop lines are full or filling up.

    >
    > And if there are eg three motorbikes in the ASL and I arrive on my bike,
    > how do you suggest they give me priority? Perhaps they should reverse
    > back?
    >

    Well yes far enough to give you room belive it or not bikes can go backwards
    you can try it go outside get on your bike and walk it backwards see ....its
    easy ... its actally part of the motorcycle test.
     
  18. Fish

    Fish Guest

    I never said anyone was in the wrong and I think that all of you cyclists
    out there who are indeed riding in your own word's to control the traffic
    behind are riding aggresivly and dangerously(as a slow moving veichle it is
    recomended that you let other veichles pass when safe to do so) Now
    obviously things have changed since I did my road cycling training because
    back then the SAFEST position was 18" away from the curb not nessercarily
    the best but certanly the safest position.

    And similarlly motorbikes are taught that 18" from the middle of the road is
    the safest so anyone who ventures between a cyclist and a parked car's are
    just stupid and will be dead before long ( as soon as somone opens a car
    door) so dont worry too much about them kinds.

    In my own opinion the motorcyclist who undertook was wrong Im just pointing
    out that you cant punish all of the motorcycling world because a few make
    mistakes!!! If bikes were to be banned from bus lanes because a few cyclists
    abused the right It wouldnt be fair.

    Naturally in your opinion then car's should be banned from the roads because
    they also undertake illegally on occasion.

    The problem as far as I can see is that the cyclist in question didnt take
    the matter far enough cyclists have all the same right'a are other road
    users and if they are undertaken Especially on a part of the road they are
    not allowed on. Now if you have the motorcyclists reg number I suggest you
    take it up with the DVLA rather than attemping to ban motorbikes from bus
    lanes.

    And in responce to paulmonk The test I was referring to was the motorcycle
    test they are absolutly red hot on observation. And indeed any motorcyclist
    who isnt observant is either very lucky or very dead or currently in
    hospital.
     
  19. Clive George

    Clive George Guest

    "Fish" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]

    > I never said that you were not allowed although this is debateable all I

    was
    > saying that if you are going to insist on putting yourself in that

    dangerous
    > position you kinda have to expect danger. The first thing they teach you

    in
    > a road cycling course is that the safest place is about 18" away from the
    > curb which is nowhere near enough room for any motorbike to undertake.


    Name and shame, I say. Sounds like the instructor doesn't know what he/she's
    talking about.

    clive
     
  20. Ian Smith

    Ian Smith Guest

    On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 21:27:50 -0000, Fish <> wrote:
    >
    > The first thing they teach you in
    > a road cycling course is that the safest place is about 18" away from the
    > curb which is nowhere near enough room for any motorbike to undertake.


    Please report the instructor and get them either educated or sacked.
    That is not the safest place.

    Read 'Cyclecraft', it might save your life.

    regards, Ian SMith
    --
    |\ /| no .sig
    |o o|
    |/ \|
     
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