motorbikes in cycle lanes



In article <[email protected]>, Fish wrote:
>
>> >> Evidently you're not a very experienced cyclist. The primary
>> >> position (1/2 to 2/3 way across the width of the lane from the left)
>> >> is the recommended [1] position when you need to control the traffic
>> >> behind
>> >> you, eg in narrow lane situations.
>> >
>> > I have never in my life met a person who when cycling on his own
>> > rides in the middle of the lane

>
>Without a good reason. (should have added that earlier)


Fair enough. You should have stopped spouting rubbish that assumed
there wasn't a good reason earlier too.
 
On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 10:55:25 +0000, Fish wrote:

>
> safer to ride nearer to the middle of the road BUT I think that to have the
> middle of the road your main and only position is wrong. apart from the fact
> that it annoys other drivers which increases your danger (an angry driver is
> more likly to risk your life)


Why is it that aggressive behaviour is considered normal when on the road?
You make it sound as if its the cyclists FAULT for 'making someone angry'.

If I was out walking in a shopping centre, and someone bumped into me from
behind, if they started shouting and swearing at me they would be carted
away. If they hit me they would be liable to charges of assault.
 
vernon levy wrote:
>>And similarlly motorbikes are taught that 18" from the middle of the road

>
> is
>
>>the safest so anyone who ventures between a cyclist and a parked car's are
>>just stupid and will be dead before long ( as soon as somone opens a car
>>door) so dont worry too much about them kinds.
>>

>
> This is wrong.
>
> CBT training suggests that:
>
> Always keep in mind your position in the road - not too close to the kerb
> nor in the centre of the road. Keep roughly to the middle of your lane,
> making slight changes to avoid potholes, manhole covers, metal studs etc.
> In other words allow a safe space all round and place yourself where you can
> be seen.
>
> http://www.begin-motorcycling.co.uk/eld.htm#position
>
>

The new April/May edition of Cycle has an article on "basic skills" for
riding on normal roads that says "Don't ride in the gutter. By riding
about a metre out from the kerb , you make yourself more obvious..."

--
Joe * If I cannot be free I'll be cheap
 
> 1. Thats the CBT course not the full motorcycle test on a bike if your in
> the middle of the road not many people can see you in there wing mirrors

you
> wont pass if you use the towards the middle position BUT everyoone will
> teach you as soon as you have passed your test I also think its covered in
> the advanced skills training.
>

Everyone **will not** teach you that after the test.

> 2. They are more forgiving about observation on the car test and you dont
> have as many to do!! And ask any instuctor they will tell you it is harder
> to get a bike test and not only for the reason that you have to do it in

at
> least three parts (CBT, theory and practical).


Bollocks! I've passed both tests and found them to be on parity in terms
of ease of passing. A three part test for bikes is only one part more than
the two part test for cars. CBT is circus tricks for numpties. Getting a
motor cycle liscence is more tortuous than getting a car license but the
tests are equal in their demands.

Also you cannot obtain a full
> bike license untill you are at least 18 there is also no end of

subcatagory
> of test you can take. The actual test is apparently the same they use the
> same marking sheet.


A non-sequiteur to the original argument.
 
> The new April/May edition of Cycle has an article on "basic skills" for
> riding on normal roads that says "Don't ride in the gutter. By riding
> about a metre out from the kerb , you make yourself more obvious..."


Sadly, Fish asserts that his knowledge and skills are superior to the wisdom
dispensed by recognised bodies representing cyclists and motorcyclists.
 
"vernon levy" <[email protected]> writes:

>Motor cyclists are not allowed to use advanced stop lines no matter what
>other motorised
>transport does with them.


I'm puzzled. Since other European countries who've been using advanced
stop lines for much longer than we have do allow motorcycles to use
them, and indeed in some cases introduced them more for motorcycles
than for bicycles, what's supposed to be different about the UK to
justify the different rules?

--
Chris Malcolm [email protected] +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]
 
On Fri, 25 Mar 2005, Chris Malcolm <[email protected]> wrote:
> "vernon levy" <[email protected]> writes:
>
> >Motor cyclists are not allowed to use advanced stop lines no matter what
> >other motorised transport does with them.

>
> I'm puzzled. Since other European countries who've been using advanced
> stop lines for much longer than we have do allow motorcycles to use
> them, and indeed in some cases introduced them more for motorcycles
> than for bicycles, what's supposed to be different about the UK to
> justify the different rules?


You're saying you need a justification for every existence of
different laws between different places?

Are you advocating a single criminal code for teh entire world? and
you are confused about why there might not be one? Lots of places
have different laws from lots of other places. I'm confused why this
might be confusing.

regards, Ian SMith
--
|\ /| no .sig
|o o|
|/ \|
 
"vernon levy" <[email protected]> writes:

>> And similarlly motorbikes are taught that 18" from the middle of the road

>is
>> the safest


>Not according to my expereience and observations over the past few decades.
>>
>> In my own opinion the motorcyclist who undertook was wrong Im just

>pointing
>> out that you cant punish all of the motorcycling world because a few make
>> mistakes!!! If bikes were to be banned from bus lanes because a few

>cyclists
>> abused the right It wouldnt be fair.


>You missed the point. The cyclists are using the bus lanes appropriately.
>The motorcyclist wasn't.


>> And in responce to paulmonk The test I was referring to was the motorcycle
>> test they are absolutly red hot on observation. And indeed any

>motorcyclist
>> who isnt observant is either very lucky or very dead or currently in
>> hospital.


>What a load of tosh. The motor cycle test is not harder than the driving
>test.....


Not only did they deliberately make it significantly harder some time
ago, one of the special points of difference being observation, but
after they did so the motorcycle casualty rate started dropping
relative to car rates and continued to drop for at least several
subsequent years, which was exactly what they hoped would happen, and
why they made the changes.

--
Chris Malcolm [email protected] +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]
 
"Chris Malcolm" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "vernon levy" <[email protected]> writes:
>
> >> And similarlly motorbikes are taught that 18" from the middle of the

road
> >is
> >> the safest

>
> >Not according to my expereience and observations over the past few

decades.
> >>
> >> In my own opinion the motorcyclist who undertook was wrong Im just

> >pointing
> >> out that you cant punish all of the motorcycling world because a few

make
> >> mistakes!!! If bikes were to be banned from bus lanes because a few

> >cyclists
> >> abused the right It wouldnt be fair.

>
> >You missed the point. The cyclists are using the bus lanes

appropriately.
> >The motorcyclist wasn't.

>
> >> And in responce to paulmonk The test I was referring to was the

motorcycle
> >> test they are absolutly red hot on observation. And indeed any

> >motorcyclist
> >> who isnt observant is either very lucky or very dead or currently in
> >> hospital.

>
> >What a load of tosh. The motor cycle test is not harder than the driving
> >test.....

>
> Not only did they deliberately make it significantly harder some time
> ago, one of the special points of difference being observation, but
> after they did so the motorcycle casualty rate started dropping
> relative to car rates and continued to drop for at least several
> subsequent years, which was exactly what they hoped would happen, and
> why they made the changes.


Be careful with your assertions, the jury is still out on accident rates and
the causes of accidents amongst motorcyclists.
9. A significant issue for Government, which will be fundamental to the
conclusions reached on powered two wheeler strategy, is the safety of
motorcyclists. There has been a very welcome decrease in the rate of
casualties. In 1999 TWMV traffic rose by 16% compared to 1998. However,
there was a 9% decrease in the casualty rate per 100 million vehicle
kilometres. That said, total casualties rose by over 6%, and deaths among
two-wheeled motor vehicle (TWMV) users rose by 10%. PTWs represent a large
proportion of road casualties in relation to their numbers and they remain
our most vulnerable road users.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_rdsafety/documents/page/dft_rdsafe
ty_504538-01.hcsp
Interim report of the Advisory Group on Motorcycling
Published May 2001

A further quote:

a.. The year-on-year increase in the number of new riders and returning
riders taking up motorcycling since 1996 coincides with the observed rise in
accident rate.
a.. These new riders are more likely to own the smaller-capacity
motorcycles, relying on their machine as their main form of transport,
particularly for commuting trips.
a.. The returning riders are statistically more likely to own the
higher-engine capacity motorcycles.

Who rides on our roads? An exploratory study of the UK motorcycling fleet
K Chorlton and SL Jamson Institute for Transport Studies, University of
Leeds, Leeds LS2 9JT
October 2003

And another:

Motorcyclists have a poor safety record when compared to other road-user
groups. Their killed and serious injury (KSI) rate in the UK per million
vehicle kilometres is approximately twice that of pedal cyclists, and over
16 times that of car drivers/passengers. Motorcycles and mopeds make up less
than 1% of vehicle traffic, but their riders suffer 14% of the total deaths
and serious injuries on Britain's roads (DETR, 2000). Though changes in
motorcycle training have contributed to a fall in the number of motorcyclist
casualties in the early 1980s and mid-1990s, this trend has reversed in more
recent years.

Motorcycle accidents: preliminary results of an in-depth case-study
DD Clarke, P Ward, W Truman and C Bartle School of Psychology, University of
Nottingham NG7 2RD
October 2003
 
How many actual motorcyclist have you soken too about this ?

How many have told you that towards the middle of the road is the safest
position?

And I again I say I am not talking about the CBT!!! I am talking about the
full test the CBT was designed for 16yr old who want to get started on a
small machine.
 
"Clive George" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Fish" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
> > I am willing to learn I ride close to the curb and it has never caused

me
> or
> > anyone Ive met any problems, why on earth would you get offesive for me
> > expressing my views? Now I have been riding for some time and untill I

am
> > involved in a accident or near accident which could have been avoided by

> me
> > cycling in the middle of the road I will continue to do so in the way I

am
> > ...roughly 18" away from the curb unless I need to be futher out.

>
> I've just been reading my CTC mag (arrived yesterday). There's an section

on
> cycle commuting, and in it they take care to say "Ride about a metre from
> the curb".
>
> Ok, it's counterintuitive - surely you're less likely to be hit if you're
> out of the way? (indeed I saw you used this argument). The thing is,

people
> don't hit things they see. If you're out of the way, people ignore you.

Fine
> for the majority of the time, but since you haven't registered on their
> perception, if something strange happens which eg causes them to swerve,
> they don't know not to hit you.
>
> People are very good at avoiding things in front of them. Putting yourself
> in front of their cars rather than to the side means they will see you,

and
> they have to think about your presence - they have to make an explicit
> passing manoevre for example.
>
> This then gets carried on to 'controlling traffic'. For example, at a

pinch
> point, there probably won't be enough room for a car to overtake. By
> suitable bike positioning, you can make this clear, otherwise the

temptation
> might still be there. Remove the bad choice from the list of possible
> actions, and life becomes easier for all.
>
> cheers,
> clive



> Thank you clive for putting your argument forward in a reasoned non

offensive way I will indeed take this into consideration but unfortunatly I
will probably stick to my old habits because they are well set now + I
personally feel more confident out of the way and as Im sure you know you
can ride better this way then you can constantly worring about the car right
up your ****.
 
"John Hearns" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:p[email protected]...
> On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 10:55:25 +0000, Fish wrote:
>
> >
> > safer to ride nearer to the middle of the road BUT I think that to have

the
> > middle of the road your main and only position is wrong. apart from the

fact
> > that it annoys other drivers which increases your danger (an angry

driver is
> > more likly to risk your life)

>
> Why is it that aggressive behaviour is considered normal when on the road?
> You make it sound as if its the cyclists FAULT for 'making someone angry'.
>
> If I was out walking in a shopping centre, and someone bumped into me from
> behind, if they started shouting and swearing at me they would be carted
> away. If they hit me they would be liable to charges of assault.
>

ok ok yes I see your point but you must also see mine if someone is angry
because your holding them up (wheter or not its your right or not) they are
more likly to think "oh bugger him I will try to go round him on this blind
corner)

and again I say that yes cyclist probably do have the right to ride where
they like in the lane but.... I was taught close to the gutter and I
personally find that the best place for me personally.
 
On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 21:57:35 -0000, Fish wrote in
<[email protected]>, seen in uk.rec.cycling:

[...]
> I have never in my life met a person who when cycling on his own rides in
> the middle of the lane


To parrot davek, "You've not met me".


> I suspect that he would get pulled over by the police


I've had traffic cars behind me, in front of me and overtake me, and
I've never yet been stopped by them. Perhaps it's because I'm doing
nothing they disagree with, never mind anything wrong...

--
Ross, in Lincoln
Reply-to address will bounce; replace "junk-trap" with "me" for e-mail
 

>
> > A cyclist should rarely venture far
> > away from the curb (remember I am a cyclist so I know this is true)
> > esp not far enough away from the curb to be undertaken by anything

>
> /What?/
>
> /Do/ you know where the primary riding position /is/?
>
> Of course cyclist should be far enough out from the curb to be
> 'undertaken' by a motorcycle. Not doing so is suicide.


Actually as for as most post in this group go they seem to claim about 1m
away from the curb is the primary riding position check that on a rule 1m is
harly enough room for most motorbikes to pass through in fact my motobike
would fit through with about 3cm to spare that is presuming that the edge of
the cyclists handle bars are 1m out and not the wheel. If the wheel was that
far out I wouldnt have room without scraping the curb or leaning the bike.
 
Fish wrote:
> How many actual motorcyclist have you soken too about this ?
>
> How many have told you that towards the middle of the road is the safest
> position?
>
> And I again I say I am not talking about the CBT!!! I am talking about the
> full test the CBT was designed for 16yr old who want to get started on a
> small machine.
>
>


Why would they put a 16yr old on a small machine undergoing basic
training in the middle of the lane if it wasn't the safest place to be?

Why don't you have a read of Motorcycle Roadcraft which is the Police
rider training manual and the basis of the RoSPA Advanced Motorcycle test?

Tony
 
Fish wrote:
>
> ok ok yes I see your point but you must also see mine if someone is angry
> because your holding them up (wheter or not its your right or not) they are
> more likly to think "oh bugger him I will try to go round him on this blind
> corner)
>


At least if they do you have space to move in if you ride in the
recommended position. If you are riding over on the left they will just
barrel past you regardless on that blind corner and then you've got
nowhere to go if something is coming the other way.

Tony
 
On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 22:17:33 +0000, Fish wrote:

>>

> ok ok yes I see your point but you must also see mine if someone is angry


I get your point too.
You're a reasonable person - you have to be to still be on this thread
really :)
 
Rich wrote:
> Just had the following letter published in the local paper. Incredibly,
> they didn't edit a word!
>
> It was in response to being undetaken by a motorcycle at traffic lights for
> the second time. Given the govt's National Motorcycle Strategy, which
> postulates allowing motorcycles in all bus lanes, I thought it was apposite.
>
> http://www.epost.co.uk/displayNode....yContent&sourceNode=145048&contentPK=12084284
>
> 11:00 - 22 March 2005
> The Evening Post has rightly published many letters about people who
> cycle on pavements, something no responsible cyclist does. Without wishing
> to provide excuses for those who do ride on the pavement, may I put forward
> a compelling reason as to why some cyclists do it: motorcycles.
>
> The council's decision to allow motorcycles in bus lanes, with no
> consultation with the cyclists who were already allowed in them, seems to
> have led to a conception among motorcyclists that they can now use any cycle
> facility, including cycle lanes, advanced stop lines at traffic lights, and
> even cycle parking.
>
> As someone who has recently had the terrifying experience of being
> undertaken by a motorcycle at traffic lights, I can assure Po s t readers
> that motorcycles and bicycles do not mix.
>
> Motorcyclists, like cyclists, are vulnerable, but making themselves
> safer at the expense of the safety of others is not acceptable, just as
> cyclists riding on the pavement is unacceptable. Unfortunately the first
> leads directly to the second.
>
> The problem of motorcyclists using cycle facilities has expanded in
> the past year or so, and it is now frequently impossible for a cyclist to
> use cycle lanes, advanced stop lines and even cycle racks because they are
> full of motorcycles. It is hardly surprising that some cyclists feel safer
> on the pavement.
>
> The police, in response to a request to take action on this serious
> problem, refused to do so on the grounds that nobody had yet died, and
> therefore it wasn't a problem.
>
> My own experience, and that of many others, demonstrates that it is
> only a matter of time before someone is killed.
>
> Why should we have to wait for a body before action is taken?
>
> I call upon the police to take action to curb this misuse of cycle
> facilities, and on the council to review its decision to allow motorcycles
> in bus lanes, but to consult cyclists this time.
>
> I also call on motorcycle organisations to educate their members and
> on the Motorcycle Action Group in particular to drop its stated aim of
> gaining access to all cycle facilities.
>
> Richard Burton, CTC right-to-ride, Little Stoke, Bristol.
>
>
>
>



The question of motorcycles using bus lanes is a moot point, I use them
on occasion where allowed and sometimes to hopscotch around a car
however I would never ride in one as a general rule because it's to
dangerous. At motorcycle speeds riding that close to the kerb is sheer
lunacy and I just don't have that big a death wish.
Advance stop lines for cyclists are the maddest bit of street management
ever in my opinion. Nothing on earth would persuade me to occupy a
position cenraly in front of a queue of motorists on a bicycle. The
fact is that hardly any cyclists in central London use these death traps
fully, preferring to stay closer to the kerb. It might be argued that
this is because motorcyclists are using them. My experience and
observation leads me to believe that whilst motorcyclists do often use
these facilities they most do so because no one else wants to use the
centre section and they have the speed and manoeuvrability to exploit
the advantage this gives them rather than sitting in or between lines of
traffic. When advanced stop lines were introduced I noticed that
motorcyclists left them well alone and even then they were hardly used
by cyclists.
Where a cycle lane is marked as a cycle lane that space is to my mind
sacrosanct and woe betide any who go there other than cyclists, where it
is advisory I expect any use by other traffic to be justifiable and
courteous and to the most part that fits with my observations of
motorcyclists mixing with cyclists in central London. Clearly I have
different views to a lot of drivers and am more than willing to ride
shotgun at 5 or 10 mph behind a cyclist for any length of time but I
have rarely if ever witnessed a motorcyclist behaving deliberately
dangerously toward a cyclist.
As said there are arses in all walks of life, cyclists, motorcyclists
and drivers but on the whole I don't see the responsible sharing of road
space as a problem. My experience and observation tends to support this
view. In my opinion even if motorcyclists were allowed access to all
bus and cycle lanes very few motorcyclists would use them all the time,
most would hopscotch a couple of cars and then filter to the outside
where it's safer.
Scooter riders however are another matter, most of them have, to my
observation, little or no understanding of the dynamics of motorcycles
and two wheeled vehicles or any appreciation of the risks they are
generating to other road users by their decisions. My observation of
this group of road users puts them firmly in the 'I don't trust you at
all, Volvo' group. They are without a doubt the most dangerous, lunatic
and mad people using our roads in my opinion, followed by car drivers!

Yes, I know car drivers are related to the devil...well some of them:)

Sniper8052
 
Fish wrote:
> (snip)
>
>>>In responce to this ( I feel I should defend my kind) As with cyclist's

>>
>>and
>>
>>>car's there are a few who will instist on breaking the rules and giving

>
> a
>
>>>bad name to everyone else and I feel that this attack on motorcyclists

>
> in
>
>>>general is wrong as car's also use the advanced stop lanes and more

>
> ofeten
>
>>...
>>...
>>...
>>...
>>
>>>Remember that Motorcyclists are more aware of the road and there
>>>surrounding's .. (you have to be to pass the test)

>>
>>Most adult cyclists hold a driving licence and most are car owners so they
>>must also have 'be to pass the test'.
>>

>
> Trust me the motorcycle test is harder as far as observation goes.
>
>


Mine was quite easy do this do that come back here.

Sniper8052.
 
Sniper8052(L96A1) wrote:
>
> The
> fact is that hardly any cyclists in central London use these death
> traps fully, preferring to stay closer to the kerb. It might be
> argued that this is because motorcyclists are using them.


Its actually because they are usually stuffed full of taxis and buses.
When they are not they are well used by cyclists.


> but I
> have rarely if ever witnessed a motorcyclist behaving deliberately
> dangerously toward a cyclist.


> Scooter riders however are another matter, most of them have,
> to my observation, little or no understanding of the dynamics of
> motorcycles and two wheeled vehicles or any appreciation of the risks
> they are generating to other road users by their decisions. My
> observation of this group of road users puts them firmly in the 'I
> don't trust you at all, Volvo' group. They are without a doubt the
> most dangerous, lunatic and mad people using our roads in my opinion,
> followed by car drivers!


Here here!

Tony