Mountain Biker Ignores "Closed" Sign, Falls Off Cliff

Discussion in 'Mountain Bikes' started by Mike Vandeman, Apr 15, 2005.

  1. Of course Patty neglected to mention that the trail was marked "closed", due to
    this danger. But mountain bikers say that public lands should be open to them,
    "because we pay taxes"....

    Mike


    From: Patty Ciesla <[email protected]>
    Subject: [BTCEB Talk] Martinez Mountain Biker Tumbles Off Cliff
    Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 18:32:09 -0700

    Martinez Mountain Biker Tumbles Off Cliff
    Source: Associated Press
    Publication date: 2005-04-11


    RICHMOND, Calif.--A 50-year-old mountain biker was in serious condition Sunday
    after tumbling off a cliff in Contra Costa County.

    Gerald Hjelle, of Martinez, was cycling in the Carquinez Scenic Park southeast
    of the Carquinez Bridge Sunday afternoon when he fell 70 feet from the roadway,
    according to Sonoma County sheriff's officials.

    Contra Costa County medical workers hiked to the man and gave him first aid, but
    were unable to lift him out.

    He was transported by emergency helicopter to John Muir Medical Center.

    "It's a steep, twisting road at that point," said Sgt. Eric Thomson of the
    helicopter crew. He said the biker was conscious, but unable to speak or explain
    how the accident had occurred.

    and from: http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/11363962.htm

    WALNUT CREEK, Calif. - A 50-year-old mountain biker who tumbled off a cliff over
    the weekend said Monday that he was recovering from a broken vertebrae and "a
    whole lot of cuts and bruises."

    Gerald Hjelle, of Martinez, was cycling in the Carquinez Scenic Park southeast
    of the Carquinez Bridge on Sunday afternoon when he fell 70 feet from what
    authorities described as a steep and twisting road. The park is near the seaside
    town of Crockett in the eastern San Francisco Bay area.

    Contra Costa County medical workers hiked to the man and gave him first aid but
    were unable to carry him out. He was transported by emergency helicopter to John
    Muir Medical Center in Walnut Creek.

    "I'm in some pain but nothing really serious," Hjelle said by telephone from his
    hospital bed. "I think I'm pretty lucky. I'm still a little puzzled how I did
    it. It's not something I'd recommend to anyone."

    He said he hoped to be released from the hospital in a few days.

    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
     
    Tags:


  2. Bill Sornson

    Bill Sornson Guest

    Mike Vandeman wrote:
    > Of course Patty neglected to mention that the trail was marked
    > "closed", due to this danger. But mountain bikers say that public
    > lands should be open to them, "because we pay taxes"....


    "TRAIL"??? What trail??? (See below)


    From: Patty Ciesla <[email protected]>
    > Subject: [BTCEB Talk] Martinez Mountain Biker Tumbles Off Cliff
    > Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 18:32:09 -0700
    >
    > Martinez Mountain Biker Tumbles Off Cliff
    > Source: Associated Press
    > Publication date: 2005-04-11
    >
    >
    > RICHMOND, Calif.--A 50-year-old mountain biker was in serious
    > condition Sunday after tumbling off a cliff in Contra Costa County.
    >
    > Gerald Hjelle, of Martinez, was cycling in the Carquinez Scenic Park
    > southeast of the Carquinez Bridge Sunday afternoon when he fell 70
    > feet from the roadway, according to Sonoma County sheriff's officials.
    > ********
    > Contra Costa County medical workers hiked to the man and gave him
    > first aid, but were unable to lift him out.
    >
    > He was transported by emergency helicopter to John Muir Medical
    > Center.
    >
    > "It's a steep, twisting road at that point," said Sgt. Eric Thomson
    > of the helicopter crew. He said the biker was conscious, but unable
    > to speak or explain how the accident had occurred.
    >
    > and from: http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/11363962.htm
    >
    > WALNUT CREEK, Calif. - A 50-year-old mountain biker who tumbled off a
    > cliff over the weekend said Monday that he was recovering from a
    > broken vertebrae and "a whole lot of cuts and bruises."
    >
    > Gerald Hjelle, of Martinez, was cycling in the Carquinez Scenic Park
    > southeast of the Carquinez Bridge on Sunday afternoon when he fell 70
    > feet from what authorities described as a steep and twisting road. {snip}


    ****

    OK, Mike, you're /really/ losing it now. Not once but TWICE it's stated
    that the man was cycling ON THE ROAD. (In fact, why they refer to him as a
    "mountain biker" is highly questionable.)

    This (your "reporting" it, I mean) is almost as laughable as when you tried
    to make something of a cyclist -- again ON THE ROAD -- giving someone in a
    Hummer the finger. (Or was it the other way around?)

    Your blind prejudice is completely overtaking what little grain of intellect
    might remain in that numb skull of yours.

    Sad...yet bemusing.

    Bill S.
     
  3. Bill Sornson

    Bill Sornson Guest

    Mike Vandeman wrote:
    > Of course Patty neglected to mention that the trail was marked
    > "closed", due to this danger. But mountain bikers say that public
    > lands should be open to them, "because we pay taxes"....


    "TRAIL"??? What trail??? (See below)


    From: Patty Ciesla <[email protected]>
    > Subject: [BTCEB Talk] Martinez Mountain Biker Tumbles Off Cliff
    > Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 18:32:09 -0700
    >
    > Martinez Mountain Biker Tumbles Off Cliff
    > Source: Associated Press
    > Publication date: 2005-04-11
    >
    >
    > RICHMOND, Calif.--A 50-year-old mountain biker was in serious
    > condition Sunday after tumbling off a cliff in Contra Costa County.
    >
    > Gerald Hjelle, of Martinez, was cycling in the Carquinez Scenic Park
    > southeast of the Carquinez Bridge Sunday afternoon when he fell 70
    > feet from the roadway, according to Sonoma County sheriff's officials.
    > ********
    > Contra Costa County medical workers hiked to the man and gave him
    > first aid, but were unable to lift him out.
    >
    > He was transported by emergency helicopter to John Muir Medical
    > Center.
    >
    > "It's a steep, twisting road at that point," said Sgt. Eric Thomson
    > of the helicopter crew. He said the biker was conscious, but unable
    > to speak or explain how the accident had occurred.
    >
    > and from: http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/11363962.htm
    >
    > WALNUT CREEK, Calif. - A 50-year-old mountain biker who tumbled off a
    > cliff over the weekend said Monday that he was recovering from a
    > broken vertebrae and "a whole lot of cuts and bruises."
    >
    > Gerald Hjelle, of Martinez, was cycling in the Carquinez Scenic Park
    > southeast of the Carquinez Bridge on Sunday afternoon when he fell 70
    > feet from what authorities described as a steep and twisting road. {snip}


    ****

    OK, Mike, you're /really/ losing it now. Not once but TWICE it's stated
    that the man was cycling ON THE ROAD. (In fact, why they refer to him as a
    "mountain biker" is highly questionable.)

    This (your "reporting" it, I mean) is almost as laughable as when you tried
    to make something of a cyclist -- again ON THE ROAD -- giving someone in a
    Hummer the finger. (Or was it the other way around?)

    Your blind prejudice is completely overtaking what little grain of intellect
    might remain in that numb skull of yours.

    Sad...yet bemusing.

    Bill S.
     
  4. Peter

    Peter Guest

    Mike Vandeman wrote:

    > Of course Patty neglected to mention that the trail was marked "closed", due to
    > this danger.


    The road (not trail) is marked 'closed' to car traffic and barriers are
    up at each end.
    However, there are deliberate gaps so that walkers and bicyclists can
    continue to use the road and such use is permitted.
    > But mountain bikers say that public lands should be open to them,
    > "because we pay taxes"....


    For that matter the trails in the immediate vicinity of the Carquinez
    Scenic Drive road are multi-use and also open to both hikers and
    cyclists [see map at:
    http://www.ebparks.org/parks/carquin.htm].


    >
    > Mike
    >
    >
    > From: Patty Ciesla <[email protected]>
    > Subject: [BTCEB Talk] Martinez Mountain Biker Tumbles Off Cliff
    > Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 18:32:09 -0700
    >
    > Martinez Mountain Biker Tumbles Off Cliff
    > Source: Associated Press
    > Publication date: 2005-04-11
    >
    >
    > RICHMOND, Calif.--A 50-year-old mountain biker was in serious condition Sunday
    > after tumbling off a cliff in Contra Costa County.
    >
    > Gerald Hjelle, of Martinez, was cycling in the Carquinez Scenic Park southeast
    > of the Carquinez Bridge Sunday afternoon when he fell 70 feet from the roadway,
    > according to Sonoma County sheriff's officials.
     
  5. Peter

    Peter Guest

    Mike Vandeman wrote:

    > Of course Patty neglected to mention that the trail was marked "closed", due to
    > this danger.


    The road (not trail) is marked 'closed' to car traffic and barriers are
    up at each end.
    However, there are deliberate gaps so that walkers and bicyclists can
    continue to use the road and such use is permitted.
    > But mountain bikers say that public lands should be open to them,
    > "because we pay taxes"....


    For that matter the trails in the immediate vicinity of the Carquinez
    Scenic Drive road are multi-use and also open to both hikers and
    cyclists [see map at:
    http://www.ebparks.org/parks/carquin.htm].


    >
    > Mike
    >
    >
    > From: Patty Ciesla <[email protected]>
    > Subject: [BTCEB Talk] Martinez Mountain Biker Tumbles Off Cliff
    > Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 18:32:09 -0700
    >
    > Martinez Mountain Biker Tumbles Off Cliff
    > Source: Associated Press
    > Publication date: 2005-04-11
    >
    >
    > RICHMOND, Calif.--A 50-year-old mountain biker was in serious condition Sunday
    > after tumbling off a cliff in Contra Costa County.
    >
    > Gerald Hjelle, of Martinez, was cycling in the Carquinez Scenic Park southeast
    > of the Carquinez Bridge Sunday afternoon when he fell 70 feet from the roadway,
    > according to Sonoma County sheriff's officials.
     
  6. Kouros

    Kouros Guest

    Mike Vandeman wrote:
    > Of course Patty neglected to mention that the trail was marked "closed", due to
    > this danger. But mountain bikers say that public lands should be open to them,
    > "because we pay taxes"....
    >
    > Mike


    Of course, I'm a newbie here, but sod this chap for a game of soldiers.

    *Plonk!*
     
  7. stevemtbsteve

    stevemtbsteve New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2003
    Messages:
    103
    Likes Received:
    0
    C'mon, it's quite a funny story which ever way you look at it, it carries a pretty basic element of slap stick.

    I would find it helpful if MV would clarify his agenda for us, I sometimes find it hard to know what his stance is ;)

    and if anyone would like to come and look at the bottom half of my garden they may find that a 'pure habitat', no-one's been in there for years, except my cats. If I could make a living out of creating that, I'd do loads, its not taken much effort so far :)
     
  8. Paul Day

    Paul Day Guest

    In rec.backcountry Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote:
    > Of course Patty neglected to mention that the trail was marked "closed", due to
    > this danger. But mountain bikers say that public lands should be open to them,
    > "because we pay taxes"....


    <snip>
    ___________________________
    /| /| | |
    ||__|| | Please don't |
    / O O\__ feed |
    / \ the trolls |
    / \ \ |
    / _ \ \ ----------------------
    / |\____\ \ ||
    / | | | |\____/ ||
    / \|_|_|/ | __||
    / / \ |____| ||
    / | | /| | --|
    | | |// |____ --|
    * _ | |_|_|_| | \-/
    *-- _--\ _ \ // |
    / _ \\ _ // | /
    * / \_ /- | - | |
    * ___ c_c_c_C/ \C_c_c_c____________


    --
    Paul Day Web: www.bur.st/~paul GPG Key ID: 7FF655A8
     
  9. On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 04:38:27 GMT, "Bill Sornson"
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    ..Mike Vandeman wrote:
    ..> Of course Patty neglected to mention that the trail was marked
    ..> "closed", due to this danger. But mountain bikers say that public
    ..> lands should be open to them, "because we pay taxes"....
    ..
    .."TRAIL"??? What trail??? (See below)
    ..
    ..
    .. From: Patty Ciesla <[email protected]>
    ..> Subject: [BTCEB Talk] Martinez Mountain Biker Tumbles Off Cliff
    ..> Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 18:32:09 -0700
    ..>
    ..> Martinez Mountain Biker Tumbles Off Cliff
    ..> Source: Associated Press
    ..> Publication date: 2005-04-11
    ..>
    ..>
    ..> RICHMOND, Calif.--A 50-year-old mountain biker was in serious
    ..> condition Sunday after tumbling off a cliff in Contra Costa County.
    ..>
    ..> Gerald Hjelle, of Martinez, was cycling in the Carquinez Scenic Park
    ..> southeast of the Carquinez Bridge Sunday afternoon when he fell 70
    ..> feet from the roadway, according to Sonoma County sheriff's officials.
    ..> ********
    ..> Contra Costa County medical workers hiked to the man and gave him
    ..> first aid, but were unable to lift him out.
    ..>
    ..> He was transported by emergency helicopter to John Muir Medical
    ..> Center.
    ..>
    ..> "It's a steep, twisting road at that point," said Sgt. Eric Thomson
    ..> of the helicopter crew. He said the biker was conscious, but unable
    ..> to speak or explain how the accident had occurred.
    ..>
    ..> and from: http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/11363962.htm
    ..>
    ..> WALNUT CREEK, Calif. - A 50-year-old mountain biker who tumbled off a
    ..> cliff over the weekend said Monday that he was recovering from a
    ..> broken vertebrae and "a whole lot of cuts and bruises."
    ..>
    ..> Gerald Hjelle, of Martinez, was cycling in the Carquinez Scenic Park
    ..> southeast of the Carquinez Bridge on Sunday afternoon when he fell 70
    ..> feet from what authorities described as a steep and twisting road. {snip}
    ..
    ..****
    ..
    ..OK, Mike, you're /really/ losing it now. Not once but TWICE it's stated
    ..that the man was cycling ON THE ROAD. (In fact, why they refer to him as a
    .."mountain biker" is highly questionable.)

    Maybe because he was riding a mountain bike? DUH!

    ..This (your "reporting" it, I mean) is almost as laughable as when you tried
    ..to make something of a cyclist -- again ON THE ROAD -- giving someone in a
    ..Hummer the finger. (Or was it the other way around?)
    ..
    ..Your blind prejudice is completely overtaking what little grain of intellect
    ..might remain in that numb skull of yours.
    ..
    ..Sad...yet bemusing.
    ..
    ..Bill S.
    ..

    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
     
  10. On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 21:57:06 -0700, Peter <[email protected]> wrote:

    ..Mike Vandeman wrote:
    ..
    ..> Of course Patty neglected to mention that the trail was marked "closed", due to
    ..> this danger.
    ..
    ..The road (not trail) is marked 'closed' to car traffic and barriers are
    ..up at each end.
    ..However, there are deliberate gaps so that walkers and bicyclists can
    ..continue to use the road and such use is permitted.

    BS. Closed is closed.

    ..> But mountain bikers say that public lands should be open to them,
    ..> "because we pay taxes"....
    ..
    ..For that matter the trails in the immediate vicinity of the Carquinez
    ..Scenic Drive road are multi-use and also open to both hikers and
    ..cyclists [see map at:
    ..http://www.ebparks.org/parks/carquin.htm].
    ..
    ..
    ..>
    ..> Mike
    ..>
    ..>
    ..> From: Patty Ciesla <[email protected]>
    ..> Subject: [BTCEB Talk] Martinez Mountain Biker Tumbles Off Cliff
    ..> Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 18:32:09 -0700
    ..>
    ..> Martinez Mountain Biker Tumbles Off Cliff
    ..> Source: Associated Press
    ..> Publication date: 2005-04-11
    ..>
    ..>
    ..> RICHMOND, Calif.--A 50-year-old mountain biker was in serious condition Sunday
    ..> after tumbling off a cliff in Contra Costa County.
    ..>
    ..> Gerald Hjelle, of Martinez, was cycling in the Carquinez Scenic Park southeast
    ..> of the Carquinez Bridge Sunday afternoon when he fell 70 feet from the roadway,
    ..> according to Sonoma County sheriff's officials.

    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
     

  11. > .OK, Mike, you're /really/ losing it now. Not once but TWICE it's stated
    > .that the man was cycling ON THE ROAD. (In fact, why they refer to him as
    > a
    > ."mountain biker" is highly questionable.)
    >
    > Maybe because he was riding a mountain bike? DUH!
    >


    What part of R-O-A-D is difficult to understand? Duh!
     
  12. "Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 21:57:06 -0700, Peter <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > .Mike Vandeman wrote:
    > .
    > .> Of course Patty neglected to mention that the trail was marked
    > "closed", due to
    > .> this danger.
    > .
    > .The road (not trail) is marked 'closed' to car traffic and barriers are
    > .up at each end.
    > .However, there are deliberate gaps so that walkers and bicyclists can
    > .continue to use the road and such use is permitted.
    >
    > BS. Closed is closed.
    >


    Clearly a lie.

    1.) the article does not describe the status of the road, open or closed.
    2.) the article clearly describes the route as a road, not a trail
    3.) if the route was indeed a road, then the road can be closed to cars and
    trucks, but open to pedestrians and bicycles. Closed can be conditional, and
    often is. But, you are the guy that thinks Day Use means to be used in
    daylight hours.
     
  13. manmoose

    manmoose Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, Jeff Strickland
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    > > .OK, Mike, you're /really/ losing it now. Not once but TWICE it's stated
    > > .that the man was cycling ON THE ROAD. (In fact, why they refer to him as
    > > a
    > > ."mountain biker" is highly questionable.)
    > >
    > > Maybe because he was riding a mountain bike? DUH!
    > >

    >
    > What part of R-O-A-D is difficult to understand? Duh!


    I think that Mr Vladimir, er, Van Halen, um, whatever, is trying to set
    aside roads that will be free from human habitat... acres and acres of
    pristine asphalt upon which no wheel (or foot) will ever encroach and
    that will be preserved for our grandchildren's grandchildren to -
    enjoy? Wal-Mart, I understand, is generously donating up to one
    thousand acres of parking lot area in various spots across the U.S. The
    area will not only have 18 foot high, 4 foot deep concrete barriers
    erected around the designated 'human-free' acreage but will also
    include giant canopies lest any human try to invade the space by
    peering at it from an aeroplane, helicopter, etc. Wal-Mart CEO H. Lee
    Scott did make one capitulation - Mr. Vandalhaven will be allowed to
    live in one of the sealed off areas so that the world might enjoy a
    Vandergraff-free zone. The Society of Normal Human Beings (SoNoHuB)
    welcomed the news with great joy, announcing on its website, "Another
    Nut Bites the Dust!"

    --
    ---
    manmoose of maine
     
  14. pmhilton

    pmhilton Guest

    Jeff Strickland wrote:

    >
    >> .OK, Mike, you're /really/ losing it now. Not once but TWICE it's
    >> stated
    >> .that the man was cycling ON THE ROAD. (In fact, why they refer to
    >> him as a
    >> ."mountain biker" is highly questionable.)
    >>
    >> Maybe because he was riding a mountain bike? DUH!
    >>

    >
    > What part of R-O-A-D is difficult to understand? Duh!
    >

    Any portion of it which is in the least connected with reality.

    Pete H

    --
    A person is free only in
    the freedom of other persons.
    W. Berry
     
  15. pmhilton

    pmhilton Guest

    Jeff Strickland wrote:

    >
    > "Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    >
    >> On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 21:57:06 -0700, Peter <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>
    >> .Mike Vandeman wrote:
    >> .
    >> .> Of course Patty neglected to mention that the trail was marked
    >> "closed", due to
    >> .> this danger.
    >> .
    >> .The road (not trail) is marked 'closed' to car traffic and barriers are
    >> .up at each end.
    >> .However, there are deliberate gaps so that walkers and bicyclists can
    >> .continue to use the road and such use is permitted.
    >>
    >> BS. Closed is closed.
    >>

    >
    > Clearly a lie.
    >
    > 1.) the article does not describe the status of the road, open or closed.
    > 2.) the article clearly describes the route as a road, not a trail
    > 3.) if the route was indeed a road, then the road can be closed to
    > cars and trucks, but open to pedestrians and bicycles. Closed can be
    > conditional, and often is. But, you are the guy that thinks Day Use
    > means to be used in daylight hours.
    >

    See what I mean about reality? He/she/it has no conception whatever of
    reality, only monomaniacle androgynist obsession. It borders on but
    doesn not quite cross into certifiable lunacy.

    But let's not send him/her/it away just yet - there're many potentially
    dull evenings ahead when feeding/provoking the troll will provide a lite
    motif.

    Pete H

    --
    A person is free only in
    the freedom of other persons.
    W. Berry
     
  16. Mike, I would like you to answer honestly I have some respect for you
    and am not trying to attack you. To begin, from what I have seen,
    mountain bikers use trails designated for mountain bikes. I will
    accept that some mountain bikers go off the trails and I will accept
    that both scenarios have some amount of impact on the land. Everytime
    I hike (in non-bear country) I find empty bottles and plastic wrappers
    etc all over the place, I would have a hard time believing these come
    from people biking. Is this more or less of a hazard than mouintain
    biking? What about people who feed animals either on purpose or
    accidently? Which causes more harm? What about people who accidently
    start forest fires? I would find it hard to believe that a fire would
    be less of a problem than a mountain biker. What about factories that
    polute rivers and streams? If you could eliminate polluting factories
    or mountain bikers, which would you choose? It seems to me that all
    people can be held responsible for damaging wildlife why do you single
    out mountain bikers? I am not a mountain biker, but I am a cyclist who
    owns an automobile (geo metro) but chooses not to use it except for
    long trips. I believe that fighting auto dependancy is a good cause.
    It seems to me that you are expending an incredible amount of personal
    energy on fighting mountain-bikers and that is your choice. You must
    also decide whether or not you are having a positive impact with your
    work, do you think you are? Instead of spreading yourself between many
    causes why not focus on fighting one fight, like automobile dependancy?

    Good luck,
    bill
     
  17. di

    di Guest

    <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > Mike, I would like you to answer honestly I have some respect for you
    > and am not trying to attack you. To begin, from what I have seen,
    > mountain bikers use trails designated for mountain bikes. I will
    > accept that some mountain bikers go off the trails and I will accept
    > that both scenarios have some amount of impact on the land. Everytime
    > I hike (in non-bear country) I find empty bottles and plastic wrappers
    > etc all over the place, I would have a hard time believing these come
    > from people biking. Is this more or less of a hazard than mouintain
    > biking? What about people who feed animals either on purpose or
    > accidently? Which causes more harm? What about people who accidently
    > start forest fires? I would find it hard to believe that a fire would
    > be less of a problem than a mountain biker. What about factories that
    > polute rivers and streams? If you could eliminate polluting factories
    > or mountain bikers, which would you choose? It seems to me that all
    > people can be held responsible for damaging wildlife why do you single
    > out mountain bikers? I am not a mountain biker, but I am a cyclist who
    > owns an automobile (geo metro) but chooses not to use it except for
    > long trips. I believe that fighting auto dependancy is a good cause.
    > It seems to me that you are expending an incredible amount of personal
    > energy on fighting mountain-bikers and that is your choice. You must
    > also decide whether or not you are having a positive impact with your
    > work, do you think you are? Instead of spreading yourself between many
    > causes why not focus on fighting one fight, like automobile dependancy?
    >
    > Good luck,
    > bill



    You're assuming Mike is a reasonable person capable of using logic,
    WRONG!
     
  18. On Mon, 18 Apr 2005 18:34:31 -0700, "Jeff Strickland" <[email protected]> wrote:

    ..
    .."Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    ..news:[email protected]
    ..> On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 21:57:06 -0700, Peter <[email protected]> wrote:
    ..>
    ..> .Mike Vandeman wrote:
    ..> .
    ..> .> Of course Patty neglected to mention that the trail was marked
    ..> "closed", due to
    ..> .> this danger.
    ..> .
    ..> .The road (not trail) is marked 'closed' to car traffic and barriers are
    ..> .up at each end.
    ..> .However, there are deliberate gaps so that walkers and bicyclists can
    ..> .continue to use the road and such use is permitted.
    ..>
    ..> BS. Closed is closed.
    ..>
    ..
    ..Clearly a lie.
    ..
    ..1.) the article does not describe the status of the road, open or closed.

    So what? It was marked "closed".

    ..2.) the article clearly describes the route as a road, not a trail
    ..3.) if the route was indeed a road, then the road can be closed to cars and
    ..trucks, but open to pedestrians and bicycles. Closed can be conditional, and
    ..often is. But, you are the guy that thinks Day Use means to be used in
    ..daylight hours.

    It was closed to everyone. The mountain biker ignored the sign, as mountain
    bikers frequently do.
    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
     
  19. On 19 Apr 2005 22:50:07 -0700, [email protected] wrote:

    ..Mike, I would like you to answer honestly I have some respect for you
    ..and am not trying to attack you. To begin, from what I have seen,
    ..mountain bikers use trails designated for mountain bikes.

    No, they often ride closed trails or even build trails illegally.

    I will
    ..accept that some mountain bikers go off the trails and I will accept
    ..that both scenarios have some amount of impact on the land. Everytime
    ..I hike (in non-bear country) I find empty bottles and plastic wrappers
    ..etc all over the place, I would have a hard time believing these come
    ..from people biking. Is this more or less of a hazard than mouintain
    ..biking? What about people who feed animals either on purpose or
    ..accidently? Which causes more harm?

    Irrelevant. Who cares?

    What about people who accidently
    ..start forest fires? I would find it hard to believe that a fire would
    ..be less of a problem than a mountain biker. What about factories that
    ..polute rivers and streams? If you could eliminate polluting factories
    ..or mountain bikers, which would you choose? It seems to me that all
    ..people can be held responsible for damaging wildlife why do you single
    ..out mountain bikers?

    Because there are only 24 hours in my day. And because those other things are
    obvious. I'm not needed to point that out. Mountain biking damage isn't as
    obvious, and requires an understanding of conservation biology, which is sorely
    lacking in these newsgroups.

    I am not a mountain biker, but I am a cyclist who
    ..owns an automobile (geo metro) but chooses not to use it except for
    ..long trips. I believe that fighting auto dependancy is a good cause.
    ..It seems to me that you are expending an incredible amount of personal
    ..energy on fighting mountain-bikers and that is your choice. You must
    ..also decide whether or not you are having a positive impact with your
    ..work, do you think you are? Instead of spreading yourself between many
    ..causes why not focus on fighting one fight, like automobile dependancy?

    There are plenty of people already working on that. In parks, cars aren't the
    main problem. Mountain bikes ARE the major problem.

    A lot of transportation activists like you are ignorant of biology and thus fail
    to understand the significance of the problem.

    ..Good luck,
    ..bill

    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
     
  20. JP

    JP Guest

    Posted by Thom on September 20, 2001 at 23:42:51:

    In Reply to: Steele Pass (forgot the link) posted by randall on September
    20, 2001 at 18:16:24:

    This Vandeman guy was first brought to my attention a couple years ago.
    Namely a web-buddy of the 4wd type clued me into him. Basically your
    standard over-educated arrogant jerk with no constructive hobbies, stuck in
    a job determined to be "vastly beneath him." This link may be outdated.

    http://www.plain.net/~rbor/mjvande/

    According to my friend:
    there's a true lunatic on a newsgroup i check (rec.backcountry), this guy
    wants pure wilderness everywhere and takes every opportunity to attack
    mountainbikers that he can. he has had several isp's cancel his accounts
    for abuse; he levels some immature personal attacks; his neighbor posted
    notes
    that the guy wants all cars in the bay area "bombed" because his cat ran
    into the street and got run over; and he fabricates science. the guy is a
    PHD and 35-yr programmer at pacbell! the bike crowd even built a "michael
    vandemann, phd" page to expose him. he is a poster child for pure idiocy
    and blind allegiance to a cause. i encourage you to check out that ng, very
    entertaining (the mtb groups are a hoot too, can't wait til he comes over.



    _______________________________________________
    Oh Mikey, you couldn't even be responsibility for a cat,
    how ya gonna save mother nature?
     
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