Mountain Bikers Don't Like to Stop!



M

Mike Vandeman

Guest
On Sat, 09 Jun 2007 12:47:24 -0700, Olebiker <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Jun 9, 1:29 pm, Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote:
>> SOUNDS good, but the TRUTH is that there is no such thing as
>> "responsible" mountain biking, any more than there is "responsible"
>> killing of wildlife, "responsible" erosion-creation, or "responsible"
>> driving of hikers off of the trails.

>
>That's your opinion, Mike, not the truth. You are entitled to your
>opinion, but the rest of us don't have to accept it as truth when we
>know better.


I have provided theSCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE. You have provided nothing by
an assertion. See the difference? So does everyone else.

>**** Durbin

--
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
M

Mike Vandeman

Guest
On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 02:17:24 GMT, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:

>Olebiker wrote:
>> On Jun 9, 1:29 pm, Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> SOUNDS good, but the TRUTH is that there is no such thing as
>>> "responsible" mountain biking, any more than there is "responsible"
>>> killing of wildlife, "responsible" erosion-creation, or "responsible"
>>> driving of hikers off of the trails.

>>
>> That's your opinion, Mike, not the truth. You are entitled to your
>> opinion, but the rest of us don't have to accept it as truth when we
>> know better.
>>
>> **** Durbin
>>

>Amen, again.
>He makes it sound like riding in the wilderness is like shooting baby
>ducks walking behind their mother.


Not yet, but I HAVE seen animals killed by mountain bikers.

I now know we have another nut case
>loose on the groups.
>Bill Baka
>I sure wish Thunderbird had a kill file by name.

--
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
M

Mike Vandeman

Guest
On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 02:15:03 GMT, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:

>Mike Vandeman wrote:
>> On Fri, 08 Jun 2007 19:04:50 GMT, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> Mike Vandeman wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 08 Jun 2007 01:05:23 GMT, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> Now you know what it's like to be a hiker around mountain bikers.
>>>>> I think we have a definition discrepancy.
>>>> You seem to be assuming that I am talking about bad behavior. That's
>>>> why mountain bikers continue to fail to get it. It's the presence of
>>>> bicycles we object to. When I am in a natural setting, I don't want to
>>>> see ANYTHING that reminds me of the city, since that's what I am
>>>> trying to get AWAY from. DUH!
>>>>
>>> If I see anything man made like another bicycle I know he had to ride
>>> and walk the same painful trail I used to get there. I have only
>>> encountered 1 (yes one) human up there and she was a hiker from Beale
>>> AFB. The point is responsible hiking, biking, or walking.

>>
>> SOUNDS good, but the TRUTH is that there is no such thing as
>> "responsible" mountain biking, any more than there is "responsible"
>> killing of wildlife, "responsible" erosion-creation, or "responsible"
>> driving of hikers off of the trails. You are just trying to
>> rationalize your participation in an INHERENTLY DESTRUCTIVE sport.

>
>Man,
>What are you smoking? Can I have some? I'm not a God-damned real-estate
>developer.


Real estate developers aren't the ONLY destructive people. DUH!

Go crawl back in your cave and shut the rock behind you.
>People are right, you are looped or brain deficient.
>Bill Baka
>>
>>> Bill Baka

--
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
O

Olebiker

Guest
On Jun 10, 3:47 am, Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sat, 09 Jun 2007 12:47:24 -0700,Olebiker<[email protected]> wrote:
> >On Jun 9, 1:29 pm, Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> SOUNDS good, but the TRUTH is that there is no such thing as
> >> "responsible" mountain biking, any more than there is "responsible"
> >> killing of wildlife, "responsible" erosion-creation, or "responsible"
> >> driving of hikers off of the trails.

>
> >That's your opinion, Mike, not the truth. You are entitled to your
> >opinion, but the rest of us don't have to accept it as truth when we
> >know better.

>
> I have provided theSCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE. You have provided nothing by
> an assertion. See the difference? So does everyone else.


No, Mike, you have not provided proof to support your assertion that
there is no such thing as responsible mountain biking. Just claiming
to have done so does not make it so.

You keep posting links to your articles which merely express your
opinion. You cite scientific articles that you claim support your
position, but when challenged to quote specifics from those articles,
you won't do it.
 
B

Bill

Guest
Mike Vandeman wrote:
> On Fri, 08 Jun 2007 19:15:04 GMT, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Mike Vandeman wrote:
>>> Violence is always close to the surface, isn't it? Do you work for the
>>> military? Corrections? No wonder you need to chill out.

>> That's why I go up there, to chill out. I used to be a punch first, ask
>> later type before I got married, side effect of the people I hung out
>> with. Bicycle riding lets me take out some of that energy on the pedals.
>> I jumped into a dispute (20++ male trying to drag a girl out of a car)
>> about a month ago and was hoping he would swing at me so I could get
>> some ""Exercise"", but when I grabbed him he got real passive in a
>> hurry. Some other guys came up and nailed him, claiming they saw him hit
>> her, so I just wound up trying to get everybody to chill out. After she
>> had driven off I finally went back to my own business, and a younger
>> gray haired friend standing there in amazement.
>> You could say I have anger management issues, but in this case she was
>> literally screaming for help, so I went into "White Knight" mode.
>> I'm totally mellow unless really provoked.

>
> Such as when challenged while riding illegally?
>
>> Bill Baka


You, dipshit, have the personal protection of NOT being within my
striking range. Riding is not automatically illegal.
Unfortunately, in your case, there is no cure for being a moron.
Bill Baka
 
B

Bill

Guest
Mike Vandeman wrote:
>
> Hmmm. Seems like you completely missed my point. I have never "aimed
> at the 18-34 demographic". I stick mostly to the inevitable effects of
> ANY kind of mountain biking.


Yawn...
Bill Baka
 
B

Bill

Guest
Mike Vandeman wrote:
> On Fri, 08 Jun 2007 12:24:44 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
>
>> On Jun 7, 1:06 pm, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Funny thing that ol' Doc didn't explain where Seven Springs Loop is.


I suspect that is "Stevens Creek Loop" if it is the S.F. Bay Area.
I went to high school down there and have ridden everything in sight,
and some not so in sight, and there is not, to my knowledge, anything
like a 7 springs area. There probably aren't even 7 springs in the whole
bay area.

>> The loop is in an urban openspace. Surrounded on three sides by Bay
>> Area Urban Sprawl and on the fourth side by a reservior ...then more
>> suburbia. Beyond that, the property is mainly made up of long
>> abandoned orchards and pastures. There is nothing natural about it,
>>from non-native grasses and trees on up. Add that to the "Trail
>> System" that is made up of (wide) single-track mixed with old dirt
>> roads.

> I doubt that most mountain bikers could name even ONE exotic species.
> They don't really know or care about nature. The helmet-cam videos
> don't lie....


Post above by a known total fool. My helmet cam, if I had one, would
show many stops and investigations, including the pair of married ducks
I encountered, twice.
Bill Baka
>
>> <snip>
>>
>> R
 
B

Bill

Guest
Mike Vandeman wrote:
> On Fri, 08 Jun 2007 15:30:35 -0700, Bruce Jensen <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>> One thing you will find is that Mike refuses to be shown anything that
>> could imply that he is in error. I offered to show him a place on
>> this group, and he went into hysterics about how poor my example would
>> be and how groundtruth isn't science. He is extremely insecure about
>> his positions and will do everything not to introduce any imbalance
>> onto his precarious assertions. It is the curse of the ivory tower
>> disconnect.

>
> You are full of it. I have first-hand experience of everything I
> claim, as well as having read all of the research on the subject.
> That's more than either of you can say.


So if I troll you with the 50 MPH tricycle story you will say you have
done that, but did 55???
Bill Baka
>
>> Bruce Jensen
 
B

Bill

Guest
Mike Vandeman wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 02:17:24 GMT, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Olebiker wrote:
>>> On Jun 9, 1:29 pm, Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> SOUNDS good, but the TRUTH is that there is no such thing as
>>>> "responsible" mountain biking, any more than there is "responsible"
>>>> killing of wildlife, "responsible" erosion-creation, or "responsible"
>>>> driving of hikers off of the trails.
>>> That's your opinion, Mike, not the truth. You are entitled to your
>>> opinion, but the rest of us don't have to accept it as truth when we
>>> know better.
>>>
>>> **** Durbin
>>>

>> Amen, again.
>> He makes it sound like riding in the wilderness is like shooting baby
>> ducks walking behind their mother.

>
> Not yet, but I HAVE seen animals killed by mountain bikers.


Oh ****, throw me in jail because I ran over a line of ants once.
Jesus H.......!
Mike,
Go tiptoe through the tulips with Tiny Tim.
Bill Baka
>
> I now know we have another nut case
>> loose on the groups.
>> Bill Baka
>> I sure wish Thunderbird had a kill file by name.
 
M

Mike Vandeman

Guest
On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 08:45:41 -0700, Olebiker <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Jun 10, 3:47 am, Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On Sat, 09 Jun 2007 12:47:24 -0700,Olebiker<[email protected]> wrote:
>> >On Jun 9, 1:29 pm, Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >> SOUNDS good, but the TRUTH is that there is no such thing as
>> >> "responsible" mountain biking, any more than there is "responsible"
>> >> killing of wildlife, "responsible" erosion-creation, or "responsible"
>> >> driving of hikers off of the trails.

>>
>> >That's your opinion, Mike, not the truth. You are entitled to your
>> >opinion, but the rest of us don't have to accept it as truth when we
>> >know better.

>>
>> I have provided theSCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE. You have provided nothing by
>> an assertion. See the difference? So does everyone else.

>
>No, Mike, you have not provided proof to support your assertion that
>there is no such thing as responsible mountain biking. Just claiming
>to have done so does not make it so.
>
>You keep posting links to your articles which merely express your
>opinion. You cite scientific articles that you claim support your
>position, but when challenged to quote specifics from those articles,
>you won't do it.


BS. It's all explained in detail in
http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/scb7. You wouldn't know science if it
bit you.
--
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
M

Mike Vandeman

Guest
On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 14:53:57 -0700, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:

>Mike Vandeman wrote:
>> On Fri, 08 Jun 2007 19:15:04 GMT, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> Mike Vandeman wrote:
>>>> Violence is always close to the surface, isn't it? Do you work for the
>>>> military? Corrections? No wonder you need to chill out.
>>> That's why I go up there, to chill out. I used to be a punch first, ask
>>> later type before I got married, side effect of the people I hung out
>>> with. Bicycle riding lets me take out some of that energy on the pedals.
>>> I jumped into a dispute (20++ male trying to drag a girl out of a car)
>>> about a month ago and was hoping he would swing at me so I could get
>>> some ""Exercise"", but when I grabbed him he got real passive in a
>>> hurry. Some other guys came up and nailed him, claiming they saw him hit
>>> her, so I just wound up trying to get everybody to chill out. After she
>>> had driven off I finally went back to my own business, and a younger
>>> gray haired friend standing there in amazement.
>>> You could say I have anger management issues, but in this case she was
>>> literally screaming for help, so I went into "White Knight" mode.
>>> I'm totally mellow unless really provoked.

>>
>> Such as when challenged while riding illegally?
>>
>>> Bill Baka

>
>You, dipshit, have the personal protection of NOT being within my
>striking range. Riding is not automatically illegal.
>Unfortunately, in your case, there is no cure for being a moron.


So you attack even when you are in the wrong? The only thing you are
good at is avoiding answering questions. Do you ride closed trails? Or
off-trail?

>Bill Baka

--
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
M

Mike Vandeman

Guest
On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 21:59:44 GMT, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:

>Mike Vandeman wrote:
>> On Fri, 08 Jun 2007 12:24:44 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
>>
>>> On Jun 7, 1:06 pm, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> Funny thing that ol' Doc didn't explain where Seven Springs Loop is.

>
>I suspect that is "Stevens Creek Loop" if it is the S.F. Bay Area.
>I went to high school down there and have ridden everything in sight,
>and some not so in sight, and there is not, to my knowledge, anything
>like a 7 springs area. There probably aren't even 7 springs in the whole
>bay area.
>
>>> The loop is in an urban openspace. Surrounded on three sides by Bay
>>> Area Urban Sprawl and on the fourth side by a reservior ...then more
>>> suburbia. Beyond that, the property is mainly made up of long
>>> abandoned orchards and pastures. There is nothing natural about it,
>>>from non-native grasses and trees on up. Add that to the "Trail
>>> System" that is made up of (wide) single-track mixed with old dirt
>>> roads.

>> I doubt that most mountain bikers could name even ONE exotic species.
>> They don't really know or care about nature. The helmet-cam videos
>> don't lie....

>
>Post above by a known total fool. My helmet cam, if I had one, would
>show many stops and investigations, including the pair of married ducks


" married ducks"? I don't know that species. Nor does anyone else.

>I encountered, twice.
>Bill Baka
>>
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>> R

--
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
B

Bill

Guest
Mike Vandeman wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 21:59:44 GMT, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Mike Vandeman wrote:
>>> On Fri, 08 Jun 2007 12:24:44 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Jun 7, 1:06 pm, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> Funny thing that ol' Doc didn't explain where Seven Springs Loop is.

>> I suspect that is "Stevens Creek Loop" if it is the S.F. Bay Area.
>> I went to high school down there and have ridden everything in sight,
>> and some not so in sight, and there is not, to my knowledge, anything
>> like a 7 springs area. There probably aren't even 7 springs in the whole
>> bay area.
>>
>>>> The loop is in an urban openspace. Surrounded on three sides by Bay
>>>> Area Urban Sprawl and on the fourth side by a reservior ...then more
>>>> suburbia. Beyond that, the property is mainly made up of long
>>>> abandoned orchards and pastures. There is nothing natural about it,
>>> >from non-native grasses and trees on up. Add that to the "Trail
>>>> System" that is made up of (wide) single-track mixed with old dirt
>>>> roads.
>>> I doubt that most mountain bikers could name even ONE exotic species.
>>> They don't really know or care about nature. The helmet-cam videos
>>> don't lie....

>> Post above by a known total fool. My helmet cam, if I had one, would
>> show many stops and investigations, including the pair of married ducks

>
> " married ducks"? I don't know that species. Nor does anyone else.


Lifetime partners then. Either that or two gay ducks that stuck together.
Bill Baka
>
>> I encountered, twice.
>> Bill Baka
>>>> <snip>
>>>>
>>>> R
 
B

Bill

Guest
Mike Vandeman wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 14:53:57 -0700, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Mike Vandeman wrote:
>>> On Fri, 08 Jun 2007 19:15:04 GMT, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Mike Vandeman wrote:
>>>>> Violence is always close to the surface, isn't it? Do you work for the
>>>>> military? Corrections? No wonder you need to chill out.
>>>> That's why I go up there, to chill out. I used to be a punch first, ask
>>>> later type before I got married, side effect of the people I hung out
>>>> with. Bicycle riding lets me take out some of that energy on the pedals.
>>>> I jumped into a dispute (20++ male trying to drag a girl out of a car)
>>>> about a month ago and was hoping he would swing at me so I could get
>>>> some ""Exercise"", but when I grabbed him he got real passive in a
>>>> hurry. Some other guys came up and nailed him, claiming they saw him hit
>>>> her, so I just wound up trying to get everybody to chill out. After she
>>>> had driven off I finally went back to my own business, and a younger
>>>> gray haired friend standing there in amazement.
>>>> You could say I have anger management issues, but in this case she was
>>>> literally screaming for help, so I went into "White Knight" mode.
>>>> I'm totally mellow unless really provoked.
>>> Such as when challenged while riding illegally?
>>>
>>>> Bill Baka

>> You, dipshit, have the personal protection of NOT being within my
>> striking range. Riding is not automatically illegal.
>> Unfortunately, in your case, there is no cure for being a moron.

>
> So you attack even when you are in the wrong? The only thing you are
> good at is avoiding answering questions. Do you ride closed trails? Or
> off-trail?


If it is marked as a do not trespass then I don't ride on it.
You calling me wrong does not make you right.
What little country we have left is due to the early settlers back to
the 1620 and up period where "Improving" the land meant cutting down all
trees to make a farm field. The conservation movement that Teddy
Roosevelt tried to start was a bit late. There used to be oasis's with
trees in the middle of what is now prairie land, totally attributable to
humans 'Conquering' and 'improving' the land by cutting down everything
in sight. The fact that the Midwest may have once been a huge forested
area until the white settlers came pisses me off, but it is done and
won't be undone until after mankind is history.
>
>> Bill Baka
 
M

Mike Vandeman

Guest
On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 22:03:00 GMT, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:

>Mike Vandeman wrote:
>> On Fri, 08 Jun 2007 15:30:35 -0700, Bruce Jensen <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>> One thing you will find is that Mike refuses to be shown anything that
>>> could imply that he is in error. I offered to show him a place on
>>> this group, and he went into hysterics about how poor my example would
>>> be and how groundtruth isn't science. He is extremely insecure about
>>> his positions and will do everything not to introduce any imbalance
>>> onto his precarious assertions. It is the curse of the ivory tower
>>> disconnect.

>>
>> You are full of it. I have first-hand experience of everything I
>> claim, as well as having read all of the research on the subject.
>> That's more than either of you can say.

>
>So if I troll you with the 50 MPH tricycle story you will say you have
>done that, but did 55???


No wonder you are so belligerent! You are mentally challenged, and
have to compensate for it.

>Bill Baka
>>
>>> Bruce Jensen

--
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
M

Mike Vandeman

Guest
On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 22:05:56 GMT, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:

>Mike Vandeman wrote:
>> On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 02:17:24 GMT, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> Olebiker wrote:
>>>> On Jun 9, 1:29 pm, Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>> SOUNDS good, but the TRUTH is that there is no such thing as
>>>>> "responsible" mountain biking, any more than there is "responsible"
>>>>> killing of wildlife, "responsible" erosion-creation, or "responsible"
>>>>> driving of hikers off of the trails.
>>>> That's your opinion, Mike, not the truth. You are entitled to your
>>>> opinion, but the rest of us don't have to accept it as truth when we
>>>> know better.
>>>>
>>>> **** Durbin
>>>>
>>> Amen, again.
>>> He makes it sound like riding in the wilderness is like shooting baby
>>> ducks walking behind their mother.

>>
>> Not yet, but I HAVE seen animals killed by mountain bikers.

>
>Oh ****, throw me in jail because I ran over a line of ants once.


Thanks for demonstrating just how ignorant of basic biology mountain
bikers are. Those ants that you are dismissing are just as important
as you are -- in fact, MORE important to the ecosystem. Humans don't
contribute to the ecosystem. On balance, they only destroy. The fact
that you don't understand and don't care makes no difference.

>Jesus H.......!
>Mike,
>Go tiptoe through the tulips with Tiny Tim.
>Bill Baka
>>
>> I now know we have another nut case
>>> loose on the groups.
>>> Bill Baka
>>> I sure wish Thunderbird had a kill file by name.

--
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
M

Mike Vandeman

Guest
On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 20:36:02 -0700, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:

>Mike Vandeman wrote:
>> On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 14:53:57 -0700, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> Mike Vandeman wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 08 Jun 2007 19:15:04 GMT, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Mike Vandeman wrote:
>>>>>> Violence is always close to the surface, isn't it? Do you work for the
>>>>>> military? Corrections? No wonder you need to chill out.
>>>>> That's why I go up there, to chill out. I used to be a punch first, ask
>>>>> later type before I got married, side effect of the people I hung out
>>>>> with. Bicycle riding lets me take out some of that energy on the pedals.
>>>>> I jumped into a dispute (20++ male trying to drag a girl out of a car)
>>>>> about a month ago and was hoping he would swing at me so I could get
>>>>> some ""Exercise"", but when I grabbed him he got real passive in a
>>>>> hurry. Some other guys came up and nailed him, claiming they saw him hit
>>>>> her, so I just wound up trying to get everybody to chill out. After she
>>>>> had driven off I finally went back to my own business, and a younger
>>>>> gray haired friend standing there in amazement.
>>>>> You could say I have anger management issues, but in this case she was
>>>>> literally screaming for help, so I went into "White Knight" mode.
>>>>> I'm totally mellow unless really provoked.
>>>> Such as when challenged while riding illegally?
>>>>
>>>>> Bill Baka
>>> You, dipshit, have the personal protection of NOT being within my
>>> striking range. Riding is not automatically illegal.
>>> Unfortunately, in your case, there is no cure for being a moron.

>>
>> So you attack even when you are in the wrong? The only thing you are
>> good at is avoiding answering questions. Do you ride closed trails? Or
>> off-trail?

>
>If it is marked as a do not trespass then I don't ride on it.


That's not what I asked. Do you ride trails that are closed to bikes?
I'm sure a macho guy like you doesn't let a little thing like a sign
get in your way....

>You calling me wrong does not make you right.
>What little country we have left is due to the early settlers back to
>the 1620 and up period where "Improving" the land meant cutting down all
>trees to make a farm field. The conservation movement that Teddy
>Roosevelt tried to start was a bit late. There used to be oasis's with
>trees in the middle of what is now prairie land, totally attributable to
>humans 'Conquering' and 'improving' the land by cutting down everything
>in sight. The fact that the Midwest may have once been a huge forested
>area until the white settlers came pisses me off, but it is done and
>won't be undone until after mankind is history.
>>
>>> Bill Baka

--
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
O

Olebiker

Guest
On Jun 10, 11:22 pm, Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 08:45:41 -0700, Olebiker <[email protected]> wrote:
> >On Jun 10, 3:47 am, Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> On Sat, 09 Jun 2007 12:47:24 -0700,Olebiker<[email protected]> wrote:
> >> >On Jun 9, 1:29 pm, Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> >> SOUNDS good, but the TRUTH is that there is no such thing as
> >> >> "responsible" mountain biking, any more than there is "responsible"
> >> >> killing of wildlife, "responsible" erosion-creation, or "responsible"
> >> >> driving of hikers off of the trails.

>
> >> >That's your opinion, Mike, not the truth. You are entitled to your
> >> >opinion, but the rest of us don't have to accept it as truth when we
> >> >know better.

>
> >> I have provided theSCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE. You have provided nothing by
> >> an assertion. See the difference? So does everyone else.

>
> >No, Mike, you have not provided proof to support your assertion that
> >there is no such thing as responsible mountain biking. Just claiming
> >to have done so does not make it so.

>
> >You keep posting links to your articles which merely express your
> >opinion. You cite scientific articles that you claim support your
> >position, but when challenged to quote specifics from those articles,
> >you won't do it.

>
> BS. It's all explained in detail inhttp://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/scb7. You wouldn't know science if it
> bit you.


Thank you for providing the perfect example of why you have no
scientific credibility. You reach conclusions not supported by the
very papers you cite and you try to refute science that doesn't agree
with your prejudice by inserting your opinion as fact.

You know why Audrey Taylor, and everyone else, ignored your comment on
the distance mountain bikers travel? Because it is irrelevant.

You have been on your crusade against mountain biking for how many
years now? You aren't accomplishing anything because you are too
willing to insult and belittle the people you are trying to convince.
Learn from your mistakes. Change your tactics and maybe you can
correct some of the real problems created by the slob mountain bikers
who do damage the environment.
 
O

Olebiker

Guest
On Jun 10, 3:24 am, Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Fri, 08 Jun 2007 12:46:02 -0700, Olebiker <[email protected]> wrote:
> >On Jun 8, 2:16 pm, Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> No, and I have never claimed that. What I DO claim is that mountain
> >> biking is far more harmful than hiking, which is true.

>
> >And hiking is more harmful than staying out of the woods. We could
> >all just sit at home in front of our computers and let nature take its
> >course outside our door without us, but that is not realistic.

>
> Mountain biking isn't the only alternative, just the only that
> mountain bikers will consider.


It is their choice to make, no matter how much you don't like it.

> >>Also that
> >> mountain bikers LIE about why they are there. They claim to care about
> >> the environment, but speed by it so fast that they don't even see it.
> >> Look at any mountain bikiing video, if you don't believe me. And look
> >> at the Subject of this thread! DUH!

>
> >In the case of the rider you originally posted about, stopping would
> >negate his enjoyment of the landscape. It is that interaction with
> >the landscape that he is looking for, not flowers or birds or other
> >wildlife.

>
> Exactly what I said: he us USING nature for his own thrills, and
> doesn't really care about itr's needs.


And you are NOT using nature to fulfill your needs when you go for a
hike?

> >Not all off-road riders ride the same way or for the same reasons as
> >the rider in question. Back when I rode a mountain bike one of my
> >favorite rides was on the Lake Overstreet property here in
> >Tallahassee. There is an area of about an acre that is full of
> >wisteria in the Spring. One of my greatest joys was being brought up
> >short by the fragrance.

>
> >The only bobcat I have ever seen was while I was riding along a dike
> >at the St. Mark's Wildlife Refuge. I would never have seen him had I
> >not been on my bike. This is the same place where a bald eagle flew
> >across about fifty feet in front of me with a freshly-caught bass
> >still wiggling in his talons.

>
> >The only pygmy rattlesnake and cottonmouth I have ever seen were
> >because I was on my mountain bike. The same goes for the first wild
> >hog.

>
> What about all the plants and animals that you ran over and killed?
> You haven't demonstrated any net BENEFIT for the wildlife.


What net benefit does the wildlife get from your hiking?

> >Mike, every activity has its responsible participants and its jerks.
> >Mountain biking is no different.

>
> You miss the point. There is no such thing as "responsible" mountain
> biking, any more than there is "responsible" bulldozer racing. No
> matter HOW you ride, you accelerate erosion, create V-shaped ruts,
> squash small animals & plants on & next to the trail, drive other
> trail users off the trails, & teach kids that the rough treatment of
> nature is okay. What's good about THAT? Hello!


The point I am trying to make to you is that not all mountain biking
fits that description.
 
B

Bruce Jensen

Guest
On Jun 10, 12:26 am, Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Fri, 08 Jun 2007 15:30:35 -0700, Bruce Jensen <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >On Jun 8, 12:46 pm, Olebiker <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> On Jun 8, 2:16 pm, Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> >> > No, and I have never claimed that. What I DO claim is that mountain
> >> > biking is far more harmful than hiking, which is true.

>
> >> And hiking is more harmful than staying out of the woods. We could
> >> all just sit at home in front of our computers and let nature take its
> >> course outside our door without us, but that is not realistic.

>
> >> >Also that
> >> > mountain bikers LIE about why they are there. They claim to care about
> >> > the environment, but speed by it so fast that they don't even see it.
> >> > Look at any mountain bikiing video, if you don't believe me. And look
> >> > at the Subject of this thread! DUH!

>
> >> In the case of the rider you originally posted about, stopping would
> >> negate his enjoyment of the landscape. It is that interaction with
> >> the landscape that he is looking for, not flowers or birds or other
> >> wildlife.

>
> >> Not all off-road riders ride the same way or for the same reasons as
> >> the rider in question. Back when I rode a mountain bike one of my
> >> favorite rides was on the Lake Overstreet property here in
> >> Tallahassee. There is an area of about an acre that is full of
> >> wisteria in the Spring. One of my greatest joys was being brought up
> >> short by the fragrance.

>
> >> The only bobcat I have ever seen was while I was riding along a dike
> >> at the St. Mark's Wildlife Refuge. I would never have seen him had I
> >> not been on my bike. This is the same place where a bald eagle flew
> >> across about fifty feet in front of me with a freshly-caught bass
> >> still wiggling in his talons.

>
> >> The only pygmy rattlesnake and cottonmouth I have ever seen were
> >> because I was on my mountain bike. The same goes for the first wild
> >> hog.

>
> >> Mike, every activity has its responsible participants and its jerks.
> >> Mountain biking is no different. Some guys are jerks who terrorize
> >> other trail users, ride when the ground is wet, skid through turns,
> >> and cut illegal trails. On the other hand, there are riders who take
> >> the time to design and maintain trails that minimize the impact of
> >> mountain biking on the environment. These are the same guys who
> >> repair the damage done by the jerks.

>
> >> If you are ever in Tallahassee, I can show you the effects of both the
> >> jerks and the responsible riders.

>
> >> **** Durbin

>
> >One thing you will find is that Mike refuses to be shown anything that
> >could imply that he is in error. I offered to show him a place on
> >this group, and he went into hysterics about how poor my example would
> >be and how groundtruth isn't science. He is extremely insecure about
> >his positions and will do everything not to introduce any imbalance
> >onto his precarious assertions. It is the curse of the ivory tower
> >disconnect.

>
> You are full of it. I have first-hand experience of everything I
> claim, as well as having read all of the research on the subject.
> That's more than either of you can say.


That is a patent lie. I offered to take you out to the Hayward
Shoreline, not once but several times, and in so many words you
refused. You have no idea what is going on out there, and you refused
to come and find out. That is a fact.

It is also a big part of the reason why about 99% of the people on
this group, even those who might otherwise *agree* with you on various
issues, think you're a worthless lying jerk and so tell you to ^%$&
off. It isn't the message - it's the messenger.

Bruce Jensen