Mountain Bikers Don't Like to Stop!

[Mike Vandeman]

On Thu, 07 Jun 2007 19:34:43 -0700, Olebiker <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Jun 7, 3:06 pm, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>> That's the kind of idiot that gives them all a bad name.
>> If he wants challenge maybe somebody could make a course on private
>> property. I go out to get away from both SUVs and people and actually
>> watch or interact with the wildlife. If some kid comes up there and
>> blows my trip there could be blood on the trail. I'm normally passive
>> but react rather badly to a$$holes.
>> Bill Baka
>
>So what gives you exclusive right to a trail? Do you own the land?

We ALL have the duty to fight idiocy. It's survival of the fittest.

>**** Durbin
--
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

 

[Olebiker]

On Jun 8, 11:27 am, Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote:
> Right: the challenge, period. Not anything that lives there and
> depends on the habitat. We are saying the same thing. You can't
> appreciate anything while you are trying to control your bike.

Just because they go to the woods for something different than you
doesn't make your way any more legal or honorable.

 

[Mike Vandeman]

On Fri, 08 Jun 2007 11:02:20 -0700, Olebiker <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Jun 8, 11:27 am, Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Right: the challenge, period. Not anything that lives there and
>> depends on the habitat. We are saying the same thing. You can't
>> appreciate anything while you are trying to control your bike.
>
>Just because they go to the woods for something different than you
>doesn't make your way any more legal or honorable.

No, and I have never claimed that. What I DO claim is that mountain
biking is far more harmful than hiking, which is true. Also that
mountain bikers LIE about why they are there. They claim to care about
the environment, but speed by it so fast that they don't even see it.
Look at any mountain bikiing video, if you don't believe me. And look
at the Subject of this thread! DUH!
--
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

 

[Bill]

Mike Vandeman wrote:
> On Fri, 08 Jun 2007 01:05:23 GMT, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>> Now you know what it's like to be a hiker around mountain bikers.
>> I think we have a definition discrepancy.
>
> You seem to be assuming that I am talking about bad behavior. That's
> why mountain bikers continue to fail to get it. It's the presence of
> bicycles we object to. When I am in a natural setting, I don't want to
> see ANYTHING that reminds me of the city, since that's what I am
> trying to get AWAY from. DUH!
>
If I see anything man made like another bicycle I know he had to ride
and walk the same painful trail I used to get there. I have only
encountered 1 (yes one) human up there and she was a hiker from Beale
AFB. The point is responsible hiking, biking, or walking.
Bill Baka

 

[Bill]

Mike Vandeman wrote:
>
> Violence is always close to the surface, isn't it? Do you work for the
> military? Corrections? No wonder you need to chill out.

That's why I go up there, to chill out. I used to be a punch first, ask
later type before I got married, side effect of the people I hung out
with. Bicycle riding lets me take out some of that energy on the pedals.
I jumped into a dispute (20++ male trying to drag a girl out of a car)
about a month ago and was hoping he would swing at me so I could get
some ""Exercise"", but when I grabbed him he got real passive in a
hurry. Some other guys came up and nailed him, claiming they saw him hit
her, so I just wound up trying to get everybody to chill out. After she
had driven off I finally went back to my own business, and a younger
gray haired friend standing there in amazement.
You could say I have anger management issues, but in this case she was
literally screaming for help, so I went into "White Knight" mode.
I'm totally mellow unless really provoked.
Bill Baka

 

[Bill]

Mike Vandeman wrote:
> On Thu, 07 Jun 2007 19:03:28 -0600, Shawn <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> Bill wrote:
>>
>> snip
>>
>> yesterday I saw a guy holding a track stand at a red
>>> light. Dang showoff.
>> Not showing off, just too lazy to put a foot down
>
> No, I think it's an image thing. It's not macho to do what's easy and
> natural (and safer), just put your foot down.
>
>> Shawn

Agreed.
He is the one and only fully decked out roadie I have seen in 30 years
of living here in the sticks.
Bill Baka

 

[Bill]

Mike Vandeman wrote:
> On Fri, 08 Jun 2007 11:02:20 -0700, Olebiker <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On Jun 8, 11:27 am, Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> Right: the challenge, period. Not anything that lives there and
>>> depends on the habitat. We are saying the same thing. You can't
>>> appreciate anything while you are trying to control your bike.
>> Just because they go to the woods for something different than you
>> doesn't make your way any more legal or honorable.
>
> No, and I have never claimed that. What I DO claim is that mountain
> biking is far more harmful than hiking, which is true. Also that
> mountain bikers LIE about why they are there. They claim to care about
> the environment, but speed by it so fast that they don't even see it.
> Look at any mountain bikiing video, if you don't believe me. And look
> at the Subject of this thread! DUH!

You are aiming at the 18-34 demographic and even the 30+ types usually
aren't doing the stunt kind of **** anymore. There are probably idiots
out there to prove me wrong, but by my 30's I knew that falling in some
places was going to hurt, big time. Aside from that fact you would have
to be referring to a group that rode up there with the bikes in the back
of a pick up. It just does not make sense to do stunt riding alone and
way back in the woods with nobody there in case you break yourself.
I may ride crazy sometimes but not in the middle of nowhere.
Bill Baka

 

[[email protected]]

On Jun 7, 1:06 pm, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
> Olebiker wrote:
> > On Jun 7, 10:20 am, Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> So much for "enjoying nature"! What's the big deal about never
> >> stopping?!
>
> > Not stopping, or "dabbing", demonstrates your skill at handling
> > difficult terrain. It's one way that some riders like to challenge
> > themselves. When trying to complete a loop without dabbing, the rider
> > is focused on the terrain and his technique. He does not go out for
> > one of these rides to watch the wildlife. This is how he enjoys
> > nature.
>
> That's the kind of idiot that gives them all a bad name.
> If he wants challenge maybe somebody could make a course on private
> property.

Just rereading the original post by Doc... seems that the person
writing the email is Anne. I know it's the Bay Area and all, but even
there I ran into few "He's" named Anne ... and even fewer who where
riders.

>I go out to get away from both SUVs and people and actually
> watch or interact with the wildlife.

Funny thing that ol' Doc didn't explain where Seven Springs Loop is.
The loop is in an urban openspace. Surrounded on three sides by Bay
Area Urban Sprawl and on the fourth side by a reservior ...then more
suburbia. Beyond that, the property is mainly made up of long
abandoned orchards and pastures. There is nothing natural about it,
from non-native grasses and trees on up. Add that to the "Trail
System" that is made up of (wide) single-track mixed with old dirt
roads.

If you can mentally block out the sounds of traffic and aircraft and
the sight of McMansions ... you can have a really nice "nature"
experience.

<snip>

R

 

[Olebiker]

On Jun 8, 2:16 pm, Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote:
> No, and I have never claimed that. What I DO claim is that mountain
> biking is far more harmful than hiking, which is true.

And hiking is more harmful than staying out of the woods. We could
all just sit at home in front of our computers and let nature take its
course outside our door without us, but that is not realistic.

>Also that
> mountain bikers LIE about why they are there. They claim to care about
> the environment, but speed by it so fast that they don't even see it.
> Look at any mountain bikiing video, if you don't believe me. And look
> at the Subject of this thread! DUH!

In the case of the rider you originally posted about, stopping would
negate his enjoyment of the landscape. It is that interaction with
the landscape that he is looking for, not flowers or birds or other
wildlife.

Not all off-road riders ride the same way or for the same reasons as
the rider in question. Back when I rode a mountain bike one of my
favorite rides was on the Lake Overstreet property here in
Tallahassee. There is an area of about an acre that is full of
wisteria in the Spring. One of my greatest joys was being brought up
short by the fragrance.

The only bobcat I have ever seen was while I was riding along a dike
at the St. Mark's Wildlife Refuge. I would never have seen him had I
not been on my bike. This is the same place where a bald eagle flew
across about fifty feet in front of me with a freshly-caught bass
still wiggling in his talons.

The only pygmy rattlesnake and cottonmouth I have ever seen were
because I was on my mountain bike. The same goes for the first wild
hog.

Mike, every activity has its responsible participants and its jerks.
Mountain biking is no different. Some guys are jerks who terrorize
other trail users, ride when the ground is wet, skid through turns,
and cut illegal trails. On the other hand, there are riders who take
the time to design and maintain trails that minimize the impact of
mountain biking on the environment. These are the same guys who
repair the damage done by the jerks.

If you are ever in Tallahassee, I can show you the effects of both the
jerks and the responsible riders.

**** Durbin

 

[Bill]

[email protected] wrote:
> On Jun 7, 1:06 pm, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Olebiker wrote:
>>> On Jun 7, 10:20 am, Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> So much for "enjoying nature"! What's the big deal about never
>>>> stopping?!
>>> Not stopping, or "dabbing", demonstrates your skill at handling
>>> difficult terrain. It's one way that some riders like to challenge
>>> themselves. When trying to complete a loop without dabbing, the rider
>>> is focused on the terrain and his technique. He does not go out for
>>> one of these rides to watch the wildlife. This is how he enjoys
>>> nature.
>> That's the kind of idiot that gives them all a bad name.
>> If he wants challenge maybe somebody could make a course on private
>> property.
>
> Just rereading the original post by Doc... seems that the person
> writing the email is Anne. I know it's the Bay Area and all, but even
> there I ran into few "He's" named Anne ... and even fewer who where
> riders.

Huh? No boys named Sue??
>
>> I go out to get away from both SUVs and people and actually
>> watch or interact with the wildlife.
>
> Funny thing that ol' Doc didn't explain where Seven Springs Loop is.
> The loop is in an urban openspace. Surrounded on three sides by Bay
> Area Urban Sprawl and on the fourth side by a reservior

Which one? Lexington, Stevens Creek, the Bay itself, Almaden, or what?
I went to high school in Campbell when Campbell avenue was a dirt road.
Of course everything I ever went to is now paved over and 30 times the
cost for a house, but hey, that's 'Progress'.

....then more
> suburbia. Beyond that, the property is mainly made up of long
> abandoned orchards and pastures. There is nothing natural about it,
> from non-native grasses and trees on up. Add that to the "Trail
> System" that is made up of (wide) single-track mixed with old dirt
> roads.
>
> If you can mentally block out the sounds of traffic and aircraft and
> the sight of McMansions ... you can have a really nice "nature"
> experience.
>
> <snip>
>
> R
>
Kind of hard for me since I remember when it was mostly orchards in the
60's. My parents bought a house for...get ready...$13,000 in 1963. Said
house is now in the near million dollar range, not due to improvement,
but just because it's 'there'.
Bill Baka

 

[Bruce Jensen]

On Jun 8, 12:46 pm, Olebiker <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Jun 8, 2:16 pm, Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > No, and I have never claimed that. What I DO claim is that mountain
> > biking is far more harmful than hiking, which is true.
>
> And hiking is more harmful than staying out of the woods. We could
> all just sit at home in front of our computers and let nature take its
> course outside our door without us, but that is not realistic.
>
> >Also that
> > mountain bikers LIE about why they are there. They claim to care about
> > the environment, but speed by it so fast that they don't even see it.
> > Look at any mountain bikiing video, if you don't believe me. And look
> > at the Subject of this thread! DUH!
>
> In the case of the rider you originally posted about, stopping would
> negate his enjoyment of the landscape. It is that interaction with
> the landscape that he is looking for, not flowers or birds or other
> wildlife.
>
> Not all off-road riders ride the same way or for the same reasons as
> the rider in question. Back when I rode a mountain bike one of my
> favorite rides was on the Lake Overstreet property here in
> Tallahassee. There is an area of about an acre that is full of
> wisteria in the Spring. One of my greatest joys was being brought up
> short by the fragrance.
>
> The only bobcat I have ever seen was while I was riding along a dike
> at the St. Mark's Wildlife Refuge. I would never have seen him had I
> not been on my bike. This is the same place where a bald eagle flew
> across about fifty feet in front of me with a freshly-caught bass
> still wiggling in his talons.
>
> The only pygmy rattlesnake and cottonmouth I have ever seen were
> because I was on my mountain bike. The same goes for the first wild
> hog.
>
> Mike, every activity has its responsible participants and its jerks.
> Mountain biking is no different. Some guys are jerks who terrorize
> other trail users, ride when the ground is wet, skid through turns,
> and cut illegal trails. On the other hand, there are riders who take
> the time to design and maintain trails that minimize the impact of
> mountain biking on the environment. These are the same guys who
> repair the damage done by the jerks.
>
> If you are ever in Tallahassee, I can show you the effects of both the
> jerks and the responsible riders.
>
> **** Durbin

One thing you will find is that Mike refuses to be shown anything that
could imply that he is in error. I offered to show him a place on
this group, and he went into hysterics about how poor my example would
be and how groundtruth isn't science. He is extremely insecure about
his positions and will do everything not to introduce any imbalance
onto his precarious assertions. It is the curse of the ivory tower
disconnect.

Bruce Jensen

 

[Mike Vandeman]

On Fri, 08 Jun 2007 19:04:50 GMT, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:

>Mike Vandeman wrote:
>> On Fri, 08 Jun 2007 01:05:23 GMT, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>> Now you know what it's like to be a hiker around mountain bikers.
>>> I think we have a definition discrepancy.
>>
>> You seem to be assuming that I am talking about bad behavior. That's
>> why mountain bikers continue to fail to get it. It's the presence of
>> bicycles we object to. When I am in a natural setting, I don't want to
>> see ANYTHING that reminds me of the city, since that's what I am
>> trying to get AWAY from. DUH!
>>
>If I see anything man made like another bicycle I know he had to ride
>and walk the same painful trail I used to get there. I have only
>encountered 1 (yes one) human up there and she was a hiker from Beale
>AFB. The point is responsible hiking, biking, or walking.

SOUNDS good, but the TRUTH is that there is no such thing as
"responsible" mountain biking, any more than there is "responsible"
killing of wildlife, "responsible" erosion-creation, or "responsible"
driving of hikers off of the trails. You are just trying to
rationalize your participation in an INHERENTLY DESTRUCTIVE sport.

>Bill Baka
--
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

 

[Olebiker]

On Jun 9, 1:29 pm, Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote:
> SOUNDS good, but the TRUTH is that there is no such thing as
> "responsible" mountain biking, any more than there is "responsible"
> killing of wildlife, "responsible" erosion-creation, or "responsible"
> driving of hikers off of the trails.

That's your opinion, Mike, not the truth. You are entitled to your
opinion, but the rest of us don't have to accept it as truth when we
know better.

**** Durbin

 

[Bill]

Mike Vandeman wrote:
> On Fri, 08 Jun 2007 19:04:50 GMT, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Mike Vandeman wrote:
>>> On Fri, 08 Jun 2007 01:05:23 GMT, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Now you know what it's like to be a hiker around mountain bikers.
>>>> I think we have a definition discrepancy.
>>> You seem to be assuming that I am talking about bad behavior. That's
>>> why mountain bikers continue to fail to get it. It's the presence of
>>> bicycles we object to. When I am in a natural setting, I don't want to
>>> see ANYTHING that reminds me of the city, since that's what I am
>>> trying to get AWAY from. DUH!
>>>
>> If I see anything man made like another bicycle I know he had to ride
>> and walk the same painful trail I used to get there. I have only
>> encountered 1 (yes one) human up there and she was a hiker from Beale
>> AFB. The point is responsible hiking, biking, or walking.
>
> SOUNDS good, but the TRUTH is that there is no such thing as
> "responsible" mountain biking, any more than there is "responsible"
> killing of wildlife, "responsible" erosion-creation, or "responsible"
> driving of hikers off of the trails. You are just trying to
> rationalize your participation in an INHERENTLY DESTRUCTIVE sport.

Man,
What are you smoking? Can I have some? I'm not a God-damned real-estate
developer. Go crawl back in your cave and shut the rock behind you.
People are right, you are looped or brain deficient.
Bill Baka
>
>> Bill Baka

 

[Bill]

Olebiker wrote:
> On Jun 9, 1:29 pm, Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote:
>> SOUNDS good, but the TRUTH is that there is no such thing as
>> "responsible" mountain biking, any more than there is "responsible"
>> killing of wildlife, "responsible" erosion-creation, or "responsible"
>> driving of hikers off of the trails.
>
> That's your opinion, Mike, not the truth. You are entitled to your
> opinion, but the rest of us don't have to accept it as truth when we
> know better.
>
> **** Durbin
>
Amen, again.
He makes it sound like riding in the wilderness is like shooting baby
ducks walking behind their mother. I now know we have another nut case
loose on the groups.
Bill Baka
I sure wish Thunderbird had a kill file by name.

 

[Mike Vandeman]

On Fri, 08 Jun 2007 19:15:04 GMT, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:

>Mike Vandeman wrote:
>>
>> Violence is always close to the surface, isn't it? Do you work for the
>> military? Corrections? No wonder you need to chill out.
>
>That's why I go up there, to chill out. I used to be a punch first, ask
>later type before I got married, side effect of the people I hung out
>with. Bicycle riding lets me take out some of that energy on the pedals.
>I jumped into a dispute (20++ male trying to drag a girl out of a car)
>about a month ago and was hoping he would swing at me so I could get
>some ""Exercise"", but when I grabbed him he got real passive in a
>hurry. Some other guys came up and nailed him, claiming they saw him hit
>her, so I just wound up trying to get everybody to chill out. After she
>had driven off I finally went back to my own business, and a younger
>gray haired friend standing there in amazement.
>You could say I have anger management issues, but in this case she was
>literally screaming for help, so I went into "White Knight" mode.
>I'm totally mellow unless really provoked.

Such as when challenged while riding illegally?

>Bill Baka
--
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

 

[Mike Vandeman]

On Fri, 08 Jun 2007 12:21:55 -0700, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:

>Mike Vandeman wrote:
>> On Fri, 08 Jun 2007 11:02:20 -0700, Olebiker <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> On Jun 8, 11:27 am, Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> Right: the challenge, period. Not anything that lives there and
>>>> depends on the habitat. We are saying the same thing. You can't
>>>> appreciate anything while you are trying to control your bike.
>>> Just because they go to the woods for something different than you
>>> doesn't make your way any more legal or honorable.
>>
>> No, and I have never claimed that. What I DO claim is that mountain
>> biking is far more harmful than hiking, which is true. Also that
>> mountain bikers LIE about why they are there. They claim to care about
>> the environment, but speed by it so fast that they don't even see it.
>> Look at any mountain bikiing video, if you don't believe me. And look
>> at the Subject of this thread! DUH!
>
>You are aiming at the 18-34 demographic and even the 30+ types usually
>aren't doing the stunt kind of **** anymore.

Hmmm. Seems like you completely missed my point. I have never "aimed
at the 18-34 demographic". I stick mostly to the inevitable effects of
ANY kind of mountain biking.

There are probably idiots
>out there to prove me wrong, but by my 30's I knew that falling in some
>places was going to hurt, big time. Aside from that fact you would have
>to be referring to a group that rode up there with the bikes in the back
>of a pick up. It just does not make sense to do stunt riding alone and
>way back in the woods with nobody there in case you break yourself.
>I may ride crazy sometimes but not in the middle of nowhere.
>Bill Baka
--
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

 

[Mike Vandeman]

On Fri, 08 Jun 2007 12:24:44 -0700, [email protected] wrote:

>On Jun 7, 1:06 pm, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Olebiker wrote:
>> > On Jun 7, 10:20 am, Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >> So much for "enjoying nature"! What's the big deal about never
>> >> stopping?!
>>
>> > Not stopping, or "dabbing", demonstrates your skill at handling
>> > difficult terrain. It's one way that some riders like to challenge
>> > themselves. When trying to complete a loop without dabbing, the rider
>> > is focused on the terrain and his technique. He does not go out for
>> > one of these rides to watch the wildlife. This is how he enjoys
>> > nature.
>>
>> That's the kind of idiot that gives them all a bad name.
>> If he wants challenge maybe somebody could make a course on private
>> property.
>
>Just rereading the original post by Doc... seems that the person
>writing the email is Anne. I know it's the Bay Area and all, but even
>there I ran into few "He's" named Anne ... and even fewer who where
>riders.
>
>>I go out to get away from both SUVs and people and actually
>> watch or interact with the wildlife.
>
>Funny thing that ol' Doc didn't explain where Seven Springs Loop is.
>The loop is in an urban openspace. Surrounded on three sides by Bay
>Area Urban Sprawl and on the fourth side by a reservior ...then more
>suburbia. Beyond that, the property is mainly made up of long
>abandoned orchards and pastures. There is nothing natural about it,
>from non-native grasses and trees on up. Add that to the "Trail
>System" that is made up of (wide) single-track mixed with old dirt
>roads.
>
>If you can mentally block out the sounds of traffic and aircraft and
>the sight of McMansions ... you can have a really nice "nature"
>experience.

I doubt that most mountain bikers could name even ONE exotic species.
They don't really know or care about nature. The helmet-cam videos
don't lie....

><snip>
>
>R
--
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

 

[Mike Vandeman]

On Fri, 08 Jun 2007 12:46:02 -0700, Olebiker <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Jun 8, 2:16 pm, Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote:
>> No, and I have never claimed that. What I DO claim is that mountain
>> biking is far more harmful than hiking, which is true.
>
>And hiking is more harmful than staying out of the woods. We could
>all just sit at home in front of our computers and let nature take its
>course outside our door without us, but that is not realistic.

Mountain biking isn't the only alternative, just the only that
mountain bikers will consider.

>>Also that
>> mountain bikers LIE about why they are there. They claim to care about
>> the environment, but speed by it so fast that they don't even see it.
>> Look at any mountain bikiing video, if you don't believe me. And look
>> at the Subject of this thread! DUH!
>
>In the case of the rider you originally posted about, stopping would
>negate his enjoyment of the landscape. It is that interaction with
>the landscape that he is looking for, not flowers or birds or other
>wildlife.

Exactly what I said: he us USING nature for his own thrills, and
doesn't really care about itr's needs.

>Not all off-road riders ride the same way or for the same reasons as
>the rider in question. Back when I rode a mountain bike one of my
>favorite rides was on the Lake Overstreet property here in
>Tallahassee. There is an area of about an acre that is full of
>wisteria in the Spring. One of my greatest joys was being brought up
>short by the fragrance.
>
>The only bobcat I have ever seen was while I was riding along a dike
>at the St. Mark's Wildlife Refuge. I would never have seen him had I
>not been on my bike. This is the same place where a bald eagle flew
>across about fifty feet in front of me with a freshly-caught bass
>still wiggling in his talons.
>
>The only pygmy rattlesnake and cottonmouth I have ever seen were
>because I was on my mountain bike. The same goes for the first wild
>hog.

What about all the plants and animals that you ran over and killed?
You haven't demonstrated any net BENEFIT for the wildlife.

>Mike, every activity has its responsible participants and its jerks.
>Mountain biking is no different.

You miss the point. There is no such thing as "responsible" mountain
biking, any more than there is "responsible" bulldozer racing. No
matter HOW you ride, you accelerate erosion, create V-shaped ruts,
squash small animals & plants on & next to the trail, drive other
trail users off the trails, & teach kids that the rough treatment of
nature is okay. What's good about THAT? Hello!

Some guys are jerks who terrorize
>other trail users, ride when the ground is wet, skid through turns,
>and cut illegal trails. On the other hand, there are riders who take
>the time to design and maintain trails that minimize the impact of
>mountain biking on the environment. These are the same guys who
>repair the damage done by the jerks.
>
>If you are ever in Tallahassee, I can show you the effects of both the
>jerks and the responsible riders.
>
>**** Durbin
--
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

 

[Mike Vandeman]

On Fri, 08 Jun 2007 15:30:35 -0700, Bruce Jensen <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On Jun 8, 12:46 pm, Olebiker <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On Jun 8, 2:16 pm, Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> > No, and I have never claimed that. What I DO claim is that mountain
>> > biking is far more harmful than hiking, which is true.
>>
>> And hiking is more harmful than staying out of the woods. We could
>> all just sit at home in front of our computers and let nature take its
>> course outside our door without us, but that is not realistic.
>>
>> >Also that
>> > mountain bikers LIE about why they are there. They claim to care about
>> > the environment, but speed by it so fast that they don't even see it.
>> > Look at any mountain bikiing video, if you don't believe me. And look
>> > at the Subject of this thread! DUH!
>>
>> In the case of the rider you originally posted about, stopping would
>> negate his enjoyment of the landscape. It is that interaction with
>> the landscape that he is looking for, not flowers or birds or other
>> wildlife.
>>
>> Not all off-road riders ride the same way or for the same reasons as
>> the rider in question. Back when I rode a mountain bike one of my
>> favorite rides was on the Lake Overstreet property here in
>> Tallahassee. There is an area of about an acre that is full of
>> wisteria in the Spring. One of my greatest joys was being brought up
>> short by the fragrance.
>>
>> The only bobcat I have ever seen was while I was riding along a dike
>> at the St. Mark's Wildlife Refuge. I would never have seen him had I
>> not been on my bike. This is the same place where a bald eagle flew
>> across about fifty feet in front of me with a freshly-caught bass
>> still wiggling in his talons.
>>
>> The only pygmy rattlesnake and cottonmouth I have ever seen were
>> because I was on my mountain bike. The same goes for the first wild
>> hog.
>>
>> Mike, every activity has its responsible participants and its jerks.
>> Mountain biking is no different. Some guys are jerks who terrorize
>> other trail users, ride when the ground is wet, skid through turns,
>> and cut illegal trails. On the other hand, there are riders who take
>> the time to design and maintain trails that minimize the impact of
>> mountain biking on the environment. These are the same guys who
>> repair the damage done by the jerks.
>>
>> If you are ever in Tallahassee, I can show you the effects of both the
>> jerks and the responsible riders.
>>
>> **** Durbin
>
>One thing you will find is that Mike refuses to be shown anything that
>could imply that he is in error. I offered to show him a place on
>this group, and he went into hysterics about how poor my example would
>be and how groundtruth isn't science. He is extremely insecure about
>his positions and will do everything not to introduce any imbalance
>onto his precarious assertions. It is the curse of the ivory tower
>disconnect.

You are full of it. I have first-hand experience of everything I
claim, as well as having read all of the research on the subject.
That's more than either of you can say.

>Bruce Jensen
--
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande