Mountain Bikers STILL Don't Get It!



M

Mike Vandeman

Guest
At 10:46 PM 1/30/05 +0000, "Matt Ellis" <[email protected]> wrote:
>Hi


>I am what you regard as a raper of nature, destroyer of natural habitats etc (I

mountain bike) and so I have seen your website before, usually there is a link
by a comment such as "this guy is a complete tool" or "check out this extremist
point of view". I agree with the second comment and feel you come across as an
extremist.

Meaning I'm ahead of my time?

> I agree with a small part of what you say, disagree with a lot of it and don't

understand what you are trying to achieve or the methods you choose to use. So I
pose the following questions-


>1) Given your views on nature, transport systems, humans trashing nature etc

what would you like to see? If you got given complete control of the world what
would your solution to humans and animals living together be? I cannot see how
what you seem to want can become a working system where humans do not interfere
with animals. From the second we became human's we started fiddling about with
nature so unless you want us all to commit mass suicide and leave the planet to
the animals what do you suggest?

Minimize your impacts, in every way that you are able. For starters, don't tale
your bike into parks or other natural areas.

>2) You have a Ph.D. in mathematics, you teach computing, but your website

horrifies me with its written in Word style of presentation. If you want people
to read your website and think about your ideas why can't you spruce it up a
bit? People are lazy and want things to be easy and it's hard work wading
through the information on your website. HTML is one of the easiest things to
learn, failing that get a student/friend/company to sort it out for you.

What's the problem? I know html. I just don't want to waste any more time on
this than necessary. A website can only PRESENT information. It is still up to
the viewer to READ it.

>3)You seem very dedicated to your cause but yet you insist on behaving in a

manner that does nothing to further it. I am talking about your dirty little
habit of trolling in mountain bike forums and groups. Trolling is the act of
posting a message of a inflammatory nature with the intention of starting a
verbal fight with other users.

I have never done that. All I do is tell the truth. Mountain bikers react in
accordance with their personalities. I have as much right to post mountain
bike-related articles in mountain-bike-related newsgroups as anyone else does,
don't I? If you don't like what I say, post your own thoughts.

> What does this achieve? You must get something out of it as you keep doing it.

This and the fact you misquote replies people make or post only one side of the
argument on other forums and groups to make mountain bikers look bad

I don't have to do ANYTHING to make you guys look bad. You do it naturally. I
just point it out.

> actually makes you look very bad indeed. This baffles me most of all. Why

bother? It seems like you merely like to argue not that you care about the
environment when you do this. It does not further your cause unless really all
you want is to be infamous as a trolling nutcase!

>4)Do you or your family own a car? Are you vegan? Is your house totally green

neither producing or using anything that is harmful or wasteful in any way? Do
you buy goods packaged in non recyclable packaging? Do you eat organic? You can
see where I am going with these questions, basically do you practice what you
preach?

Of course. DUH! But I don't see how that has anything to do with your mountain
biking.

>I expect you will probably either not read this, write a derogatory reply or

reply in a fashion that answers none of my points but I thought I would see if
you can convince me that what you say is right. I will be deeply disappointed if
you use my email in any way that involves not quoting it all, I have been honest
and as such left myself open to misquoting by you and could easily be quoted in
a way that makes me appear to be a hate mail writing stupid mountain biker. Like
when you see a movie poster that says "Best movie of the year" but the original
review was "this would be the best movie of the year only if no other movies had
been made that year". It's a childish ploy used by desperate people so please
don't stoop that low. Looking forward to your reply.

>Regards


>Matt


===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
T

Typical Mountain Biker

Guest
Mike Vandeman wrote:
<snip>
>>2) You have a Ph.D. in mathematics, you teach computing, but your website

>
> horrifies me with its written in Word style of presentation. If you want people
> to read your website and think about your ideas why can't you spruce it up a
> bit? People are lazy and want things to be easy and it's hard work wading
> through the information on your website. HTML is one of the easiest things to
> learn, failing that get a student/friend/company to sort it out for you.
>
> What's the problem? I know html. I just don't want to waste any more time on
> this than necessary. A website can only PRESENT information. It is still up to
> the viewer to READ it.
>


Your website really does suck ass dude

<par snip>
 
M

Mike Vandeman

Guest
On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 11:08:55 -0600, Typical Mountain Biker <[email protected]> wrote:

..Mike Vandeman wrote:
..<snip>
..>>2) You have a Ph.D. in mathematics, you teach computing, but your website
..>
..> horrifies me with its written in Word style of presentation. If you want people
..> to read your website and think about your ideas why can't you spruce it up a
..> bit? People are lazy and want things to be easy and it's hard work wading
..> through the information on your website. HTML is one of the easiest things to
..> learn, failing that get a student/friend/company to sort it out for you.
..>
..> What's the problem? I know html. I just don't want to waste any more time on
..> this than necessary. A website can only PRESENT information. It is still up to
..> the viewer to READ it.
..>
..
..Your website really does suck ass dude

Because?
===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
G

Gary S.

Guest
On Fri, 04 Feb 2005 17:38:59 GMT, Mike Vandeman <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 11:08:55 -0600, Typical Mountain Biker <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>.Mike Vandeman wrote:
>.<snip>
>.>>2) You have a Ph.D. in mathematics, you teach computing, but your website
>.>
>.> horrifies me with its written in Word style of presentation. If you want people
>.>
>.> What's the problem? I know html. I just don't want to waste any more time on
>.> this than necessary. A website can only PRESENT information. It is still up to
>.> the viewer to READ it.
>.>
>.
>.Your website really does suck ass dude
>
>Because?
>===


Typical Mikie answer.

Sounds like you are just as lazy as your image of mountain bikers.

If you really cared about your cause, you would work harder to
communicate with others, rather than lecture them, insult them, rehash
the same material over and over, take research out of context, call
people names, and so on.

But it was never about the environment, was it?

Much more about you receiving attention, and getting to feel that you
are a martyr for your cause, even though you accomplish less than
nothing. Since you prevent rational discussion of the potential
environmental degradation from outdoor recreation, any good that might
come from such a discussion is lost. You would rather feel importnat
in your own mind than actually accomplish a single thing.

You inspire pity or laughter, not support.

Happy trails,
Gary (net.yogi.bear)
------------------------------------------------
at the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence

Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA
Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom
 
M

Mike Vandeman

Guest
On Fri, 04 Feb 2005 19:51:36 GMT, Gary S. <[email protected]> wrote:

..On Fri, 04 Feb 2005 17:38:59 GMT, Mike Vandeman <[email protected]>
..wrote:
..
..>On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 11:08:55 -0600, Typical Mountain Biker <[email protected]> wrote:
..>
..>.Mike Vandeman wrote:
..>.<snip>
..>.>>2) You have a Ph.D. in mathematics, you teach computing, but your website
..>.>
..>.> horrifies me with its written in Word style of presentation. If you want people
..>.>
..>.> What's the problem? I know html. I just don't want to waste any more time on
..>.> this than necessary. A website can only PRESENT information. It is still up to
..>.> the viewer to READ it.
..>.>
..>.
..>.Your website really does suck ass dude
..>
..>Because?
..>===
..
..Typical Mikie answer.
..
..Sounds like you are just as lazy as your image of mountain bikers.
..
..If you really cared about your cause, you would work harder to
..communicate with others, rather than lecture them, insult them, rehash
..the same material over and over, take research out of context, call
..people names, and so on.
..
..But it was never about the environment, was it?
..
..Much more about you receiving attention, and getting to feel that you
..are a martyr for your cause, even though you accomplish less than
..nothing. Since you prevent rational discussion of the potential
..environmental degradation from outdoor recreation, any good that might
..come from such a discussion is lost. You would rather feel importnat
..in your own mind than actually accomplish a single thing.
..
..You inspire pity or laughter, not support.
..
..Happy trails,
..Gary (net.yogi.bear)
..------------------------------------------------
..at the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence
..
..Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA
..Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom

Interesting. You managed to say absolutely NOTHING, instead of answering a
simple question. Typical mountain biker....
===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
G

Gary S.

Guest
On Sat, 05 Feb 2005 06:39:49 GMT, Mike Vandeman <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On Fri, 04 Feb 2005 19:51:36 GMT, Gary S. <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>.Much more about you receiving attention, and getting to feel that you
>.are a martyr for your cause, even though you accomplish less than
>.nothing. Since you prevent rational discussion of the potential
>.environmental degradation from outdoor recreation, any good that might
>.come from such a discussion is lost. You would rather feel importnat
>.in your own mind than actually accomplish a single thing.
>.
>.You inspire pity or laughter, not support.
>.
>.Happy trails,
>.Gary (net.yogi.bear)
>
>Interesting. You managed to say absolutely NOTHING, instead of answering a
>simple question. Typical mountain biker....
>===


Nothing that you are capable of understanding.

You must agree with my premise that your approach stifles reasonable
discussion, and that you actually contribute to harming the
environment. You must be very fit from carrying around that ego of
yours.

You never answer any questions, even from those who might agree with
many of your views. I thought that copying your methods in responses
would be something you might appreciate.

I am not sure that I should be used as an example of typical anything,
certainly not a mountain biker.

Not entirely certain why you think I am a mountain biker, but the way
you crosspost to so many unrelated groups must confuse you.

In past posts, I have mentioned that I ride a road bike and hike. I
tried mountain biking back a few years, turned out I prefer other
outdoor activities.

Not that you are capable of noticing the real world.

Happy trails,
Gary (net.yogi.bear)
------------------------------------------------
at the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence

Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA
Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom
 
M

Mike Vandeman

Guest
On Mon, 07 Feb 2005 23:14:27 GMT, Gary S. <[email protected]> wrote:

..On Sat, 05 Feb 2005 06:39:49 GMT, Mike Vandeman <[email protected]>
..wrote:
..
..>On Fri, 04 Feb 2005 19:51:36 GMT, Gary S. <[email protected]> wrote:
..>
..>.Much more about you receiving attention, and getting to feel that you
..>.are a martyr for your cause, even though you accomplish less than
..>.nothing. Since you prevent rational discussion of the potential
..>.environmental degradation from outdoor recreation, any good that might
..>.come from such a discussion is lost. You would rather feel importnat
..>.in your own mind than actually accomplish a single thing.
..>.
..>.You inspire pity or laughter, not support.
..>.
..>.Happy trails,
..>.Gary (net.yogi.bear)
..>
..>Interesting. You managed to say absolutely NOTHING, instead of answering a
..>simple question. Typical mountain biker....
..>===
..
..Nothing that you are capable of understanding.
..
..You must agree with my premise that your approach stifles reasonable
..discussion,

BS. How am I preventing you from telling the truth about mountain biking? I have
no control over you at all. The FACT is, you are "stifling" your OWN effort to
have a rational discussion, because you KNOW that you would only end up looking
like the fool that you are.

and that you actually contribute to harming the
..environment. You must be very fit from carrying around that ego of
..yours.
..
..You never answer any questions, even from those who might agree with
..many of your views. I thought that copying your methods in responses
..would be something you might appreciate.
..
..I am not sure that I should be used as an example of typical anything,
..certainly not a mountain biker.
..
..Not entirely certain why you think I am a mountain biker, but the way
..you crosspost to so many unrelated groups must confuse you.
..
..In past posts, I have mentioned that I ride a road bike and hike. I
..tried mountain biking back a few years, turned out I prefer other
..outdoor activities.
..
..Not that you are capable of noticing the real world.
..
..Happy trails,
..Gary (net.yogi.bear)
..------------------------------------------------
..at the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence
..
..Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA
..Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
J

Jeff Strickland

Guest
It is YOU that don't get it.





"Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:p[email protected]
> At 10:46 PM 1/30/05 +0000, "Matt Ellis" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >Hi

>
> >I am what you regard as a raper of nature, destroyer of natural habitats

etc (I
> mountain bike) and so I have seen your website before, usually there is a

link
> by a comment such as "this guy is a complete tool" or "check out this

extremist
> point of view". I agree with the second comment and feel you come across

as an
> extremist.
>
> Meaning I'm ahead of my time?
>
> > I agree with a small part of what you say, disagree with a lot of it and

don't
> understand what you are trying to achieve or the methods you choose to

use. So I
> pose the following questions-
>
>
> >1) Given your views on nature, transport systems, humans trashing nature

etc
> what would you like to see? If you got given complete control of the world

what
> would your solution to humans and animals living together be? I cannot see

how
> what you seem to want can become a working system where humans do not

interfere
> with animals. From the second we became human's we started fiddling about

with
> nature so unless you want us all to commit mass suicide and leave the

planet to
> the animals what do you suggest?
>
> Minimize your impacts, in every way that you are able. For starters,

don't tale
> your bike into parks or other natural areas.
>
> >2) You have a Ph.D. in mathematics, you teach computing, but your website

> horrifies me with its written in Word style of presentation. If you want

people
> to read your website and think about your ideas why can't you spruce it up

a
> bit? People are lazy and want things to be easy and it's hard work wading
> through the information on your website. HTML is one of the easiest things

to
> learn, failing that get a student/friend/company to sort it out for you.
>
> What's the problem? I know html. I just don't want to waste any more time

on
> this than necessary. A website can only PRESENT information. It is still

up to
> the viewer to READ it.
>
> >3)You seem very dedicated to your cause but yet you insist on behaving in

a
> manner that does nothing to further it. I am talking about your dirty

little
> habit of trolling in mountain bike forums and groups. Trolling is the act

of
> posting a message of a inflammatory nature with the intention of starting

a
> verbal fight with other users.
>
> I have never done that. All I do is tell the truth. Mountain bikers react

in
> accordance with their personalities. I have as much right to post mountain
> bike-related articles in mountain-bike-related newsgroups as anyone else

does,
> don't I? If you don't like what I say, post your own thoughts.
>
> > What does this achieve? You must get something out of it as you keep

doing it.
> This and the fact you misquote replies people make or post only one side

of the
> argument on other forums and groups to make mountain bikers look bad
>
> I don't have to do ANYTHING to make you guys look bad. You do it

naturally. I
> just point it out.
>
> > actually makes you look very bad indeed. This baffles me most of all.

Why
> bother? It seems like you merely like to argue not that you care about the
> environment when you do this. It does not further your cause unless really

all
> you want is to be infamous as a trolling nutcase!
>
> >4)Do you or your family own a car? Are you vegan? Is your house totally

green
> neither producing or using anything that is harmful or wasteful in any

way? Do
> you buy goods packaged in non recyclable packaging? Do you eat organic?

You can
> see where I am going with these questions, basically do you practice what

you
> preach?
>
> Of course. DUH! But I don't see how that has anything to do with your

mountain
> biking.
>
> >I expect you will probably either not read this, write a derogatory reply

or
> reply in a fashion that answers none of my points but I thought I would

see if
> you can convince me that what you say is right. I will be deeply

disappointed if
> you use my email in any way that involves not quoting it all, I have been

honest
> and as such left myself open to misquoting by you and could easily be

quoted in
> a way that makes me appear to be a hate mail writing stupid mountain

biker. Like
> when you see a movie poster that says "Best movie of the year" but the

original
> review was "this would be the best movie of the year only if no other

movies had
> been made that year". It's a childish ploy used by desperate people so

please
> don't stoop that low. Looking forward to your reply.
>
> >Regards

>
> >Matt

>
> ===
> I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
> humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
> years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)
>
> http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
D

DecSim

Guest
Well well well Mike, you decided to post one of my emails but not all
of them. Way to go. Also see you left my email address at the top,
thanks for that. You give your email address on your website however I
would prefer mine to not be bandied about by you. Maybe I should give
out your home phone number on here, bet that would make you happy!

(please note I am not a creepy stalker, it took 5 minutes of casual
looking on the internet to find your phone number, your address and the
fact that the phone was registered to someone called Emily Gott*****.
Starred out last bit for obvious reasons!)

To all the normal people out there, the full transcript of the emails
between Mike and me can be found at-

www.geocities.com/mike_the_extremist

It makes interesting reading. My favourite highlight is Mike claiming
that extremist means ahead of his time and then that it means he knows
extremly more about the subject than anyone else.......... PHD holder
should try holding a dictionary now and then. Also he claims to not be
a troll or to insult people and then proceeds to tell me I am full of
**** and an idiot. Hmmm, Mike is a consummate professional as always
(Mike, thats irony by the way before you run off and quote that someone
called you a consummate professional). I tried my best when writing to
mike to not let my personal feelings towards him affect it but a little
may have slipped through at times. I did miss out the words IDIOT,
USELESS, WASTE OF TIME, PATHETIC, NARROW MINDED and BIGOT so I think I
did very well.

Matt
 
D

DecSim

Guest
Well well well Mike, you decided to post one of my emails but not all
of them. Way to go. Also see you left my email address at the top,
thanks for that. You give your email address on your website however I
would prefer mine to not be bandied about by you. Maybe I should give
out your home phone number on here, bet that would make you happy!

(please note I am not a creepy stalker, it took 5 minutes of casual
looking on the internet to find your phone number, your address and the
fact that the phone was registered to someone called Emily Gott*****.
Starred out last bit for obvious reasons!)

To all the normal people out there, the full transcript of the emails
between Mike and me can be found at-

http://www.geocities.com/mike_vandeman_the_extremist/

It makes interesting reading. My favourite highlight is Mike claiming
that extremist means ahead of his time and then that it means he knows
extremly more about the subject than anyone else.......... PHD holder
should try holding a dictionary now and then. Also he claims to not be
a troll or to insult people and then proceeds to tell me I am full of
**** and an idiot. Hmmm, Mike is a consummate professional as always
(Mike, thats irony by the way before you run off and quote that someone
called you a consummate professional). I tried my best when writing to
mike to not let my personal feelings towards him affect it but a little
may have slipped through at times. I did miss out the words IDIOT,
USELESS, WASTE OF TIME, PATHETIC, NARROW MINDED and BIGOT so I think I
did very well.

Matt
 
G

Gary S.

Guest
On 5 Mar 2005 15:37:42 -0800, "DecSim" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Well well well Mike, you decided to post one of my emails but not all
>of them. Way to go. Also see you left my email address at the top,
>thanks for that. You give your email address on your website however I
>would prefer mine to not be bandied about by you. Maybe I should give
>out your home phone number on here, bet that would make you happy!
>

Like other sociopathic extremists, Mikie only values people who agree
with him 100%. After all, his opinion is his definition of absolute
truth.

Every other person, whether they are someone he is trying to convince,
or someone who agrees with him partially, is not worthy of his
slightest respect.

He deliberately distributes email addresses of those who disagree, he
has tried many times to get people fired from their day jobs (which
got him booted as a volunteer leader with Sierra Club), he applauds
every time a mountain biker, or any cyclist, is injured or killed, no
matter the circumstances, he supports deliberate traps to hurt
cyclists and hikers, and so on.

The possibly imaginary people who do agree with him, EVERY SINGLE ONE
OF THEM, requests that he not publish their identification, and he
honors every one of those requests. There is no way to prove that any
of his "supporters" actually exists.

Fortunately for the world, Mikie does not do anything physically, he
only battles with recycled words, hiding behind his keyboard. But it
is never really about the environment, but his ego.

He does not accomplish anything in his desperate search for respect
from others.

Happy trails,
Gary (net.yogi.bear)
--
At the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence

Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA
Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom
 
D

DecSim

Guest
Indeed, he is not worthy of hating, I now find him amusing and pitiful
rather than enraging. I would love to find out what he would be like if
he was faced with a real person rather than just a computer. Trolls are
all brave when on internet forms, bet he wouldn't be so forthright with
the insults and cries of 'BS' when actually dealing with real people
face to face (something I feel his life must lack!). I am sorely
tempted to phone him, not to scare or insult or threaten, merely to say
hello and remind him that behind faceless posts on a newsgroup there
are real people. We are not here to amuse him or be his playthings, we
are here to talk to fellow mountain bikers about something we all
enjoy. His intrusions are not welcome, not wanted, not needed, and
above all not useful to anyone or anything, not even the environment he
claims to be so valiently protecting.

Oh, and anyone who crows excitedly and claims a victory for their point
of view when someone else gets injured or killed is clearly not right
in the head, but we all knew that already didn't we! Go on Mike,
justify that one......

Now where did I put my cycle shorts, I have some beautiful trails to go
ride and there is not a damn thing Mike can do about it :)