"Mountainbiking is restricted often for the right reasons: Hikers need a place to find tranquility."

Discussion in 'Mountain Bikes' started by Mike Vandeman, Sep 3, 2003.

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  1. Of course, this is ALWAYS true, so bikes should be banned everywhere there are hikers! Bikes should
    be restricted to pavement, as in Yosemite National Park.

    Mike

    From: Paul Nam <[email protected]> Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 18:27:30 -0700 (PDT)

    Begin rant:

    Over the hills I've been riding lately I've had plenty of time for some soul searching. It is really
    important to me to tell you all that we need to take care of the trails we ride, and even those we
    might not ever ride.

    Upon my return, going through the bundle of mail, I glanced at the cover of the Sierra Trading Post
    "Adventure's Edge" catalog. It shows a great photo of an mtb downhill racer, dual crown fork,
    armour, full-face, number plate (closed course?), small air, and a loose trail.

    Well, after being around the riding scene for quite a while, to see a specialty catalog aimed at my
    recreation like this one is both a milestone and a bit scary. Why is it scary?

    My vacation's last descent was on one of my favorite downhills (Shuteye from the top), and after not
    dropping it in two years, I discovered that it had been ruined by a lack of maintenance and abuse.
    In this trail's case (Sierra Nat'l Forest) the real cause of destruction is uphill motorbikes, but
    admittedly the increased mtb traffic hadn't ever helped this way overgrade bad boy of a trail.

    Over time my riding skills and instincts have improved to a degree. Even more than those though, my
    fitness is better than ever due to trail riding. I started out just liking to go out into the woods
    for a longer distance than a hike or a run could manage. Then I really discovered downhilling, and
    that sort of began to eclipse the sight-seeing aspect of riding a bit. I even bought some armour
    (that I never wear, but I'm probably going to start).

    Planet Earth calling: You better wear some armour or fix the trails.

    A lot of trails in the west are getting trounced from weather and increased use, while others are
    becoming overgrown and simply disappearing. Some of the problems are due to a lack of restrictions
    (such as the case in the Sietrra Nat'l Forest imho). But most of the problem (imho, again) is from a
    lack of care from the users themselves. That means us; you and me.

    We all realize, I'm sure, that most trails were never designed for the use they actually recieve
    these days. There are some outstanding exceptions. Human expansion into the west (Iimiting my scope
    here to the 48 west of Denver) has been rapid. Historical foot and pack routes for trade are perhaps
    the oldest. Then there's a layer of mining related activity and a huge network of forestry roads.

    Riding all this stuff over the years has been an education into the formation of the west; it's
    cultural and economic development, for all of us. Downieville is a good (you could also say "bad" ;
    ) ) example of this. At the same time we all get to learn about fire ecology, geology, erosion
    abatement (and more often what happens when there is none), rare and endanged species, Native
    Americans, watersheds, irrigation, water tables, and the USGS. In fact, mountain biking is a
    university in itself.

    I feel like I have relived the pioneer days. I've even struggled up many an abandonded stage
    route, like the Emigrant Trail, the Butterfield, the Oregon Trail etc., and believe me, these
    people were tough.

    Mountain bikers should have access and defend and maintain that access. One reason is because they
    can actually reach these places without potentially ruining them. Another reason is that we can help
    keep the history alive, and spread the knowledge about natural beauty, why it must be respected, and
    why we need to moderate our lifestyles to protect species and diversity. Unfortunately we are losing
    access all over the place because we are not taking up our responsibility. I am not against
    motorcycling on trails, but I know it needs to be restricted. Big horsepower throttle twisting
    uphill damages trails faster than anything except for a 100 year flood or a summer of pack trains.
    Mountainbiking is restricted often for the right reasons: Hikers need a place to find tranquility, a
    fragile meadow or riparian community requires preservation, a trail is so ridiculously overgrade and
    erosive that it must be closed for restoration, and the trail is within two miles radius of a
    popular rural trailhead.

    All over the beautiful west, in every locale, you can find incredible trails to ride on. Problem is,
    there's not enough people caring for them. Our parks and forests personnel are stretched to the
    limit. It takes a lot to manage an entire national forest and satisfy all the economic,
    recreational, and preservation needs. The way I see it is: Mountain biking is a just a facet of a
    beautiful, but for some reason, a lot of light shines through this facet and we can make it even
    more beautiful if we just try.

    Unfortunately things are going downhill fast. Pun intended. Literally the soils and the rocks are
    heading out to sea faster than they would without us around. Sure it's entropy, chaos and anarchy
    out there, but we can moderate, can't we?

    In the big picture the management of our forests is more important than our puny recreation. The
    management of fuels and soil is of overiding importance. These things affect all of the watersheds,
    and ultimately the climate of the planet itself.

    That's why mtb access must be a local issue. You are important because you understand this stuff. A
    lot of Americans still don't. We are red, white, blue and green. If we don't take care of our trails
    we will be forced off them by people who don't care for us, and the tradgedy will be that the Earth
    will be the worse of for it. Sure, we'll still have a lot of unrestricted access in a lot of places,
    but to ride them, you'll need long travel full-sus, big cojones, armour, and an attitude. Well, that
    descibes me, sometimes, I admit (laughs). But we'll sure miss those flowy singletracks that swooped
    like a beautiful melody through the woods, unless you help.

    Ok. So come on out to the Donner Lake Rim Trail in a couple of weeks. Come on out to the local Henry
    Coe IMBA Epic this Sept 20-21. Go to land manager meetings. Do stuff.You can still have your fun,
    and you'll be discovering like I am, "how deep the rabbit hole goes."

    - Paul

    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to
    help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
     
    Tags:


  2. On Wed, 3 Sep 2003 09:47:50 -0700, "Jeff Strickland" <[email protected]> wrote:

    . ."Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    .news:[email protected]... .> Of course, this is ALWAYS true, so bikes
    should be banned everywhere there .are .> hikers! Bikes should be restricted to pavement, as in
    Yosemite National .Park. .> .> Mike .> .> .Yosemite has 3 or 4 MILLION visitors per year. There
    simply isn't room for .all of the people that visit, so the Rangers had to pick a group to limit.
    .they could have picked hikers to ban, but since most visiters ride an .airplane halfway around the
    world, and don't have room to carry the bike, .they come into the park and must walk to visit the
    remote places. I think .the Rangers picked the right group to limit access to,

    You are LYING. Mountain bikers have exactly the same access in Yosemite as everyone else.

    but I do not think .that this limitation will fit for every National Forest or Park that we .have.
    There is certainly no need for such a limitation in the desert forests .or parks. (Yes, there are
    National Forests that are actually desert .regions.) We also have a vast network of State Parks
    that consist of forest .areas and desert areas, and beach areas. We need not apply the same
    .restrictions that are in place in Yosemite to all of the other .forest/desert/beach locations.

    Wildlife don't distinguish between state parks, national forests, and national parks. Nor should we.
    They are all equally valuable as wildlife habitat, and hence equally INAPPROPRIATE for bicycles or
    other vehicles. Such distinctions are invented by humans.
    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to
    help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
     
  3. Elvis

    Elvis Guest

    Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > On Wed, 3 Sep 2003 09:47:50 -0700, "Jeff Strickland" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > . ."Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > .news:[email protected]... .> Of course, this is ALWAYS true, so bikes
    > should be banned everywhere there .are .> hikers! Bikes should be restricted to pavement, as in
    > Yosemite National .Park. .> .> Mike .> .> .Yosemite has 3 or 4 MILLION visitors per year. There
    > simply isn't room for .all of the people that visit, so the Rangers had to pick a group to limit.
    > .they could have picked hikers to ban, but since most visiters ride an .airplane halfway around
    > the world, and don't have room to carry the bike, .they come into the park and must walk to visit
    > the remote places. I think .the Rangers picked the right group to limit access to,
    >
    > You are LYING. Mountain bikers have exactly the same access in Yosemite as everyone else.
    >
    Heya bung-hole: Quote: "Off-trail riding and mountain biking are not permitted in Yosemite
    National Park." See the park web-site at: http://www.nps.gov/yose/trip/biking.htm

    You are a lying lier, who has no true knowledge of any subject you rant on, and this proves it.

    Moron.

    lsv
     
  4. Elvis

    Elvis Guest

    Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > On Wed, 3 Sep 2003 09:47:50 -0700, "Jeff Strickland" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > . ."Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > .news:[email protected]... .> Of course, this is ALWAYS true, so bikes
    > should be banned everywhere there .are .> hikers! Bikes should be restricted to pavement, as in
    > Yosemite National .Park. .> .> Mike .> .> .Yosemite has 3 or 4 MILLION visitors per year. There
    > simply isn't room for .all of the people that visit, so the Rangers had to pick a group to limit.
    > .they could have picked hikers to ban, but since most visiters ride an .airplane halfway around
    > the world, and don't have room to carry the bike, .they come into the park and must walk to visit
    > the remote places. I think .the Rangers picked the right group to limit access to,
    >
    > You are LYING. Mountain bikers have exactly the same access in Yosemite as everyone else.
    >
    Heya bung-hole: Quote: "Off-trail riding and mountain biking are not permitted in Yosemite
    National Park." See the park web-site at: http://www.nps.gov/yose/trip/biking.htm

    You are a lying lier, who has no true knowledge of any subject you rant on, and this proves it.

    Moron.

    lsv
     
  5. "Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > On Wed, 3 Sep 2003 09:47:50 -0700, "Jeff Strickland" <[email protected]>
    wrote:
    >
    > . ."Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > .news:[email protected]... .> Of course, this is ALWAYS true, so bikes
    > should be banned everywhere
    there
    > .are .> hikers! Bikes should be restricted to pavement, as in Yosemite National .Park. .> .> Mike
    > .> .> .Yosemite has 3 or 4 MILLION visitors per year. There simply isn't room
    for
    > .all of the people that visit, so the Rangers had to pick a group to
    limit.
    > .they could have picked hikers to ban, but since most visiters ride an .airplane halfway around
    > the world, and don't have room to carry the bike, .they come into the park and must walk to visit
    > the remote places. I think .the Rangers picked the right group to limit access to,
    >
    > You are LYING. Mountain bikers have exactly the same access in Yosemite as everyone else.

    And you are an idiot.
     
  6. Sorni

    Sorni Guest

    "Elvis" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > >
    > > You are LYING. Mountain bikers have exactly the same access in Yosemite
    as
    > > everyone else.
    > >
    > Heya bung-hole: Quote: "Off-trail riding and mountain biking are not permitted in Yosemite
    > National Park." See the park web-site at: http://www.nps.gov/yose/trip/biking.htm

    > You are a lying lier, who has no true knowledge of any subject you rant on, and this proves it.

    Hey Elvis: Leave the building.

    Twice.

    Bill "smart-assed smart-ass" S.

    (Clue Addendum{b}: it's only our BIKES that aren't allowed. Duh?)
     
  7. "Elvis" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > > On Wed, 3 Sep 2003 09:47:50 -0700, "Jeff Strickland" <[email protected]>
    wrote:
    > >
    > > . ."Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > .news:[email protected]... .> Of course, this is ALWAYS true, so bikes
    > > should be banned everywhere
    there
    > > .are .> hikers! Bikes should be restricted to pavement, as in Yosemite
    National
    > > .Park. .> .> Mike .> .> .Yosemite has 3 or 4 MILLION visitors per year. There simply isn't room
    for
    > > .all of the people that visit, so the Rangers had to pick a group to
    limit.
    > > .they could have picked hikers to ban, but since most visiters ride an .airplane halfway around
    > > the world, and don't have room to carry the
    bike,
    > > .they come into the park and must walk to visit the remote places. I
    think
    > > .the Rangers picked the right group to limit access to,
    > >
    > > You are LYING. Mountain bikers have exactly the same access in Yosemite
    as
    > > everyone else.
    > >
    > Heya bung-hole: Quote: "Off-trail riding and mountain biking are not permitted in Yosemite
    > National Park." See the park web-site at: http://www.nps.gov/yose/trip/biking.htm
    >
    > You are a lying lier, who has no true knowledge of any subject you rant on, and this proves it.
    >
    > Moron.

    I am certain that Mike will retort that the riders are welcome to visit the park, just the bikes are
    not welcome. His position is that even when a bike rider is walking, he or she is still a bike
    rider, and they are welcome as long as they leave the vehicle hanging on the bike rack on the back
    of the Suburban.

    You are correct in one thing though, Mike is a moron.
     
  8. Marty

    Marty Guest

    "Jeff Strickland" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    >
    >
    > I am certain that Mike will retort that the riders are welcome to visit
    the
    > park, just the bikes are not welcome. His position is that even when a
    bike
    > rider is walking, he or she is still a bike rider, and they are welcome as long as they leave the
    > vehicle hanging on the bike rack on the back of the Suburban.
    >
    > You are correct in one thing though, Mike is a moron.
    >
    >

    If you don't have your bike.... are you a rider? You may be a former rider.... or one who used to
    ride..... but if you don't have your bike and your walking then you're a walker right? Or if you DO
    have your bike and your pushing it then you're a pusher, I think. And if you're a pusher in a school
    zone THEN you're in deep kimchi.

    Marty
     
  9. Gary S .

    Gary S . Guest

    On Thu, 4 Sep 2003 13:59:17 -0400, "Marty" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >"Jeff Strickland" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    >>
    >>
    >> I am certain that Mike will retort that the riders are welcome to visit
    >the
    >> park, just the bikes are not welcome. His position is that even when a
    >bike
    >> You are correct in one thing though, Mike is a moron.
    >>
    >If you don't have your bike.... are you a rider? You may be a former rider.... or one who used to
    >ride..... but if you don't have your bike and your walking then

    He keeps saying that he only objects to bikes, not the riders who could become hikers.

    But then he goes on and vilifies every person who has ever touched a mountain bike as some sort of
    anti-nature demon.

    Too bad everything Mikey does damages his cause. Maybe what he really wants is attention,
    good or bad.

    Happy trails, Gary (net.yogi.bear)
    ------------------------------------------------
    at the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence

    Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom
     
  10. [email protected] says...
    >
    >"Elvis" <[email protected]> wrote in message

    >> Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >> >
    >> > You are LYING. Mountain bikers have exactly the same access in Yosemite as everyone else.
    >> >
    >> You are a lying lier, who has no true knowledge of any subject you rant on
    >
    >(Clue Addendum{b}: it's only our BIKES that aren't allowed. Duh?)

    Did you know that Bulldozer operators have the exactly the same access in Yosemite as everyone else?
    It's true!

    The clue train is leaving the station...

    --
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    | Just Another Internet Wise Guy Macon, GA USA |
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     
  11. Klborg

    Klborg Guest

    Are you still around? I would have thought you'd be blocked from all these groups by now.

    --
    "Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Of course, this is ALWAYS true, so bikes should be banned everywhere there
    are
    > hikers! Bikes should be restricted to pavement, as in Yosemite National
    Park.
    >
    > Mike
    >
    >
    > From: Paul Nam <[email protected]> Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 18:27:30 -0700 (PDT)
    >
    > Begin rant:
    >
    > Over the hills I've been riding lately I've had plenty of time for some
    soul
    > searching. It is really important to me to tell you all that we need to
    take
    > care of the trails we ride, and even those we might not ever ride.
    >
    > Upon my return, going through the bundle of mail, I glanced at the cover
    of the
    > Sierra Trading Post "Adventure's Edge" catalog. It shows a great photo of
    an mtb
    > downhill racer, dual crown fork, armour, full-face, number plate (closed course?), small air, and
    > a loose trail.
    >
    > Well, after being around the riding scene for quite a while, to see a
    specialty
    > catalog aimed at my recreation like this one is both a milestone and a bit scary. Why is it scary?
    >
    > My vacation's last descent was on one of my favorite downhills (Shuteye
    from the
    > top), and after not dropping it in two years, I discovered that it had
    been
    > ruined by a lack of maintenance and abuse. In this trail's case (Sierra
    Nat'l
    > Forest) the real cause of destruction is uphill motorbikes, but admittedly
    the
    > increased mtb traffic hadn't ever helped this way overgrade bad boy of a
    trail.
    >
    > Over time my riding skills and instincts have improved to a degree. Even
    more
    > than those though, my fitness is better than ever due to trail riding. I
    started
    > out just liking to go out into the woods for a longer distance than a hike
    or a
    > run could manage. Then I really discovered downhilling, and that sort of
    began
    > to eclipse the sight-seeing aspect of riding a bit. I even bought some
    armour
    > (that I never wear, but I'm probably going to start).
    >
    > Planet Earth calling: You better wear some armour or fix the trails.
    >
    > A lot of trails in the west are getting trounced from weather and
    increased use,
    > while others are becoming overgrown and simply disappearing. Some of the problems are due to a
    > lack of restrictions (such as the case in the
    Sietrra
    > Nat'l Forest imho). But most of the problem (imho, again) is from a lack
    of care
    > from the users themselves. That means us; you and me.
    >
    > We all realize, I'm sure, that most trails were never designed for the use
    they
    > actually recieve these days. There are some outstanding exceptions. Human expansion into the west
    > (Iimiting my scope here to the 48 west of Denver)
    has
    > been rapid. Historical foot and pack routes for trade are perhaps the
    oldest.
    > Then there's a layer of mining related activity and a huge network of
    forestry
    > roads.
    >
    > Riding all this stuff over the years has been an education into the
    formation of
    > the west; it's cultural and economic development, for all of us.
    Downieville is
    > a good (you could also say "bad" ; ) ) example of this. At the same time
    we all
    > get to learn about fire ecology, geology, erosion abatement (and more
    often what
    > happens when there is none), rare and endanged species, Native Americans, watersheds, irrigation,
    > water tables, and the USGS. In fact, mountain
    biking is
    > a university in itself.
    >
    > I feel like I have relived the pioneer days. I've even struggled up many
    an
    > abandonded stage route, like the Emigrant Trail, the Butterfield, the
    Oregon
    > Trail etc., and believe me, these people were tough.
    >
    > Mountain bikers should have access and defend and maintain that access.
    One
    > reason is because they can actually reach these places without potentially ruining them. Another
    > reason is that we can help keep the history alive,
    and
    > spread the knowledge about natural beauty, why it must be respected, and
    why we
    > need to moderate our lifestyles to protect species and diversity.
    Unfortunately
    > we are losing access all over the place because we are not taking up our responsibility. I am not
    > against motorcycling on trails, but I know it
    needs to
    > be restricted. Big horsepower throttle twisting uphill damages trails
    faster
    > than anything except for a 100 year flood or a summer of pack trains. Mountainbiking is restricted
    > often for the right reasons: Hikers need a
    place to
    > find tranquility, a fragile meadow or riparian community requires
    preservation,
    > a trail is so ridiculously overgrade and erosive that it must be closed
    for
    > restoration, and the trail is within two miles radius of a popular rural trailhead.
    >
    > All over the beautiful west, in every locale, you can find incredible
    trails to
    > ride on. Problem is, there's not enough people caring for them. Our parks
    and
    > forests personnel are stretched to the limit. It takes a lot to manage an
    entire
    > national forest and satisfy all the economic, recreational, and
    preservation
    > needs. The way I see it is: Mountain biking is a just a facet of a
    beautiful,
    > but for some reason, a lot of light shines through this facet and we can
    make it
    > even more beautiful if we just try.
    >
    > Unfortunately things are going downhill fast. Pun intended. Literally the
    soils
    > and the rocks are heading out to sea faster than they would without us
    around.
    > Sure it's entropy, chaos and anarchy out there, but we can moderate, can't
    we?
    >
    > In the big picture the management of our forests is more important than
    our puny
    > recreation. The management of fuels and soil is of overiding importance.
    These
    > things affect all of the watersheds, and ultimately the climate of the
    planet
    > itself.
    >
    > That's why mtb access must be a local issue. You are important because you understand this stuff.
    > A lot of Americans still don't. We are red, white,
    blue
    > and green. If we don't take care of our trails we will be forced off them
    by
    > people who don't care for us, and the tradgedy will be that the Earth will
    be
    > the worse of for it. Sure, we'll still have a lot of unrestricted access
    in a
    > lot of places, but to ride them, you'll need long travel full-sus, big
    cojones,
    > armour, and an attitude. Well, that descibes me, sometimes, I admit
    (laughs).
    > But we'll sure miss those flowy singletracks that swooped like a beautiful melody through the
    > woods, unless you help.
    >
    > Ok. So come on out to the Donner Lake Rim Trail in a couple of weeks. Come
    on
    > out to the local Henry Coe IMBA Epic this Sept 20-21. Go to land manager meetings. Do stuff.You
    > can still have your fun, and you'll be discovering
    like I
    > am, "how deep the rabbit hole goes."
    >
    > - Paul
    >
    > ===
    > I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to
    > help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)
    >
    > http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
     
  12. "Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > On Wed, 3 Sep 2003 09:47:50 -0700, "Jeff Strickland" <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    > .they come into the park and must walk to visit the remote places. I think .the Rangers picked the
    > right group to limit access to,
    >
    > You are LYING. Mountain bikers have exactly the same access in Yosemite as everyone else.

    Lying this does not advance your cause at all. It merely makes people wonder what else you are lying
    about. Everyone knows full well that mountain bikes have zero access on trails in Yosemite. You
    should choose your lies more carefully, and only lie about things that no one is likely to check up
    on; kind of like Coulter, Hannity, and O'Reilly try to do.
     
  13. On 4 Sep 2003 02:10:01 -0700, [email protected] (Elvis) wrote:

    .Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>... .> On Wed, 3 Sep 2003 09:47:50 -0700, "Jeff
    Strickland" <[email protected]> wrote: .> .> . .> ."Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in
    message .> .news:[email protected]... .> .> Of course, this is ALWAYS true,
    so bikes should be banned everywhere there .> .are .> .> hikers! Bikes should be restricted to
    pavement, as in Yosemite National .> .Park. .> .> .> .> Mike .> .> .> .> .> .Yosemite has 3 or 4
    MILLION visitors per year. There simply isn't room for .> .all of the people that visit, so the
    Rangers had to pick a group to limit. .> .they could have picked hikers to ban, but since most
    visiters ride an .> .airplane halfway around the world, and don't have room to carry the bike, .>
    .they come into the park and must walk to visit the remote places. I think .> .the Rangers picked
    the right group to limit access to, .> .> You are LYING. Mountain bikers have exactly the same
    access in Yosemite as .> everyone else. .>
    . Heya bung-hole: Quote: "Off-trail riding and mountain biking are .not permitted in Yosemite
    National Park." See the park web-site at: .http://www.nps.gov/yose/trip/biking.htm

    I know, dumdum. As I said, mountain bikers have EXACTLY the same access as everyone else! They are
    allowed to WALK, and not allowed to BIKE, on the trails -- just like everyone else!

    . You are a lying lier, who has no true knowledge of any subject you .rant on, and this
    proves it. .
    . Moron.
    .
    . lsv

    Thanks for demonstrating just how ignorant and dishonest mountain bikers are.
    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to
    help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
     
  14. On Thu, 4 Sep 2003 09:34:25 -0700, "Jeff Strickland" <[email protected]> wrote:

    . ."Elvis" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    .news:[email protected]... .> Mike Vandeman <[email protected]>
    wrote in message .news:<[email protected]>... .> > On Wed, 3 Sep 2003
    09:47:50 -0700, "Jeff Strickland" <[email protected]> .wrote: .> > .> > . .> > ."Mike Vandeman"
    <[email protected]> wrote in message .> > .news:[email protected]... .> >
    .> Of course, this is ALWAYS true, so bikes should be banned everywhere .there .> > .are .> > .>
    hikers! Bikes should be restricted to pavement, as in Yosemite .National .> > .Park. .> > .> .> > .>
    Mike .> > .> .> > .> .> > .Yosemite has 3 or 4 MILLION visitors per year. There simply isn't room
    .for .> > .all of the people that visit, so the Rangers had to pick a group to .limit. .> > .they
    could have picked hikers to ban, but since most visiters ride an .> > .airplane halfway around the
    world, and don't have room to carry the .bike, .> > .they come into the park and must walk to visit
    the remote places. I .think .> > .the Rangers picked the right group to limit access to, .> > .> >
    You are LYING. Mountain bikers have exactly the same access in Yosemite .as .> > everyone else. .> >
    .> Heya bung-hole: Quote: "Off-trail riding and mountain biking are .> not permitted in Yosemite
    National Park." See the park web-site at: .> http://www.nps.gov/yose/trip/biking.htm .> .> You are a
    lying lier, who has no true knowledge of any subject you .> rant on, and this proves it. .> .>
    Moron. . .I am certain that Mike will retort that the riders are welcome to visit the .park, just
    the bikes are not welcome.

    No, dumdum, bikes are welcome ON PAVEMENT, where vehicles belong.

    His position is that even when a bike .rider is walking, he or she is still a bike rider, and they
    are welcome as .long as they leave the vehicle hanging on the bike rack on the back of the
    .Suburban.

    BS. You aren't listening.

    .You are correct in one thing though, Mike is a moron.

    Hmmm, you sound like you are projecting....

    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to
    help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
     
  15. On Sun, 7 Sep 2003 19:20:00 -0700, "klborg" <[email protected]> wrote:

    .Are you still around? I would have thought you'd be blocked from all these .groups by now.

    HOW? They tried that with rec.bicycles.off-road, and now the newsgroup is DEAD.
    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to
    help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
     
  16. On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 04:46:04 GMT, "Steven M. Scharf" <[email protected]> wrote:

    ."Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    .news:[email protected]... .> On Wed, 3 Sep 2003 09:47:50 -0700, "Jeff
    Strickland" <[email protected]> .wrote: . .> .they come into the park and must walk to visit the
    remote places. I think .> .the Rangers picked the right group to limit access to, .> .> You are
    LYING. Mountain bikers have exactly the same access in Yosemite as .> everyone else. . .Lying this
    does not advance your cause at all. It merely makes people wonder .what else you are lying about.
    Everyone knows full well that mountain bikes .have zero access on trails in Yosemite.

    Right. That is EXACTLY the same access that everyone else has.

    You should choose your lies more .carefully, and only lie about things that no one is likely to
    check up on; .kind .of like Coulter, Hannity, and O'Reilly try to do. .

    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to
    help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
     
  17. On Thu, 4 Sep 2003 13:59:17 -0400, "Marty" <[email protected]> wrote:

    . ."Jeff Strickland" <[email protected]> wrote in message .news:[email protected]...
    .> .> .> I am certain that Mike will retort that the riders are welcome to visit .the .> park, just
    the bikes are not welcome. His position is that even when a .bike .> rider is walking, he or she is
    still a bike rider, and they are welcome as .> long as they leave the vehicle hanging on the bike
    rack on the back of the .> Suburban. .> .> You are correct in one thing though, Mike is a moron. .>
    .> . .If you don't have your bike.... are you a rider? You may be a former .rider.... or one .who
    used to ride..... but if you don't have your bike and your walking then .you're a .walker right? Or
    if you DO have your bike and your pushing it then you're a .pusher, .I think. And if you're a pusher
    in a school zone THEN you're in deep kimchi. . .Marty

    If you habitually mountain bike, you are a mountain biker. DUH!
    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to
    help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
     
  18. On Thu, 04 Sep 2003 19:00:52 GMT, Gary S. <[email protected]> wrote:

    .On Thu, 4 Sep 2003 13:59:17 -0400, "Marty" <[email protected]> .wrote: . .>"Jeff Strickland"
    <[email protected]> wrote in message .>news:[email protected]... .>> .>> .>> I am
    certain that Mike will retort that the riders are welcome to visit .>the .>> park, just the bikes
    are not welcome. His position is that even when a .>bike .>> You are correct in one thing though,
    Mike is a moron. .>> .>If you don't have your bike.... are you a rider? You may be a former
    .>rider.... or one .>who used to ride..... but if you don't have your bike and your walking then .
    .He keeps saying that he only objects to bikes, not the riders who .could become hikers. . .But then
    he goes on and vilifies every person who has ever touched a .mountain bike as some sort of
    anti-nature demon.

    Demons ARE as demons DO. You guys continue to prove me right.
    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to
    help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
     
  19. On Fri, 05 Sep 2003 17:20:44 +0000, "Another Wise Guy - Macon, GA USA"
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    . [email protected] says... .> .>"Elvis" <[email protected]> wrote in message . .>> Mike
    Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote in message .>> > .>> > You are LYING. Mountain bikers have
    exactly the same access .>> > in Yosemite as everyone else. .>> > .>> You are a lying lier, who has
    no true knowledge of any subject you .>> rant on .> .>(Clue Addendum{b}: it's only our BIKES that
    aren't allowed. Duh?) . .Did you know that Bulldozer operators have the exactly .the same access in
    Yosemite as everyone else? It's true! . .The clue train is leaving the station...

    Hey, you are too smart to be a mountain biker! :)
    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to
    help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
     
  20. R.White

    R.White Guest

    Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...

    Mike's been awol from the groups and some more apartments under construction were set on
    fire. Hmm...
     
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