MTB freewheel removal problem

[Carrera]

I've just managed to demolish my rear MTB wheel. I wanted to remove the freewheel itself which, as most people know, is a solid mass of cogs and not like the cassette that's used with Shimano roadbikes (and most more modern mountainbikes). I've had no problem removing Shimano cassettes on roadbikes but have never encountered such difficulties as I had with this freewheel.
I have the freewheel removal tool which is a splined tool you push into the freewheel and then take a spanner to fit round the tool and undo.
Well, I couldn't get it off. I tried using the spanner and finally putting the splined tool into a vice, slotting the wheel onto that and turning the wheel but I couldn't get it off. Finally I winded up destroying the entire wheel and lost ever more spokes as I strained to free it.
So, please help get this cleared up: I'm considering the possibility I may have been using the tool in the wrong direction so will very carefully describe how I was doing it:
If you stand behind a mountain bike so the rear derailleur is to your right hand side and then rotate the freewheel cog anticlockwise as the wheel itself is held steady it should move freely, correct (as in backpedaling)? If you turn the freewheel clockwise, however, it should bite and move the entire wheel forwards.
So, standing behind my rear wheel I'm turning my spanner in the same direction as when the freewheel can spin round freely (like in reverse pedaling). That is anticlockwise.
I figure the freewheel has to be removed screwing in the opposite direction of pedaling as when you pedal it must surely tighten it.
So, how come the freewheel won't come off? With cassettes I found it easy but this has all been beyond a joke.

 

[daveornee]

I've just managed to demolish my rear MTB wheel. I wanted to remove the freewheel itself which, as most people know, is a solid mass of cogs and not like the cassette that's used with Shimano roadbikes (and most more modern mountainbikes). I've had no problem removing Shimano cassettes on roadbikes but have never encountered such difficulties as I had with this freewheel.
I have the freewheel removal tool which is a splined tool you push into the freewheel and then take a spanner to fit round the tool and undo.
Well, I couldn't get it off. I tried using the spanner and finally putting the splined tool into a vice, slotting the wheel onto that and turning the wheel but I couldn't get it off. Finally I winded up destroying the entire wheel and lost ever more spokes as I strained to free it.
So, please help get this cleared up: I'm considering the possibility I may have been using the tool in the wrong direction so will very carefully describe how I was doing it:
If you stand behind a mountain bike so the rear derailleur is to your right hand side and then rotate the freewheel cog anticlockwise as the wheel itself is held steady it should move freely, correct (as in backpedaling)? If you turn the freewheel clockwise, however, it should bite and move the entire wheel forwards.
So, standing behind my rear wheel I'm turning my spanner in the same direction as when the freewheel can spin round freely (like in reverse pedaling). That is anticlockwise.
I figure the freewheel has to be removed screwing in the opposite direction of pedaling as when you pedal it must surely tighten it.
So, how come the freewheel won't come off? With cassettes I found it easy but this has all been beyond a joke.

You were turning it the correct way.
Sometimes they really get stuck on there.

http://www.parktool.com/repair/readhowto.asp?id=46


If you want to save the hub, this method will show you how to remove the freewheel by destroying it.

 

[Peter@vecchios]

I've just managed to demolish my rear MTB wheel. I wanted to remove the freewheel itself which, as most people know, is a solid mass of cogs and not like the cassette that's used with Shimano roadbikes (and most more modern mountainbikes). I've had no problem removing Shimano cassettes on roadbikes but have never encountered such difficulties as I had with this freewheel.
I have the freewheel removal tool which is a splined tool you push into the freewheel and then take a spanner to fit round the tool and undo.
Well, I couldn't get it off. I tried using the spanner and finally putting the splined tool into a vice, slotting the wheel onto that and turning the wheel but I couldn't get it off. Finally I winded up destroying the entire wheel and lost ever more spokes as I strained to free it.
So, please help get this cleared up: I'm considering the possibility I may have been using the tool in the wrong direction so will very carefully describe how I was doing it:
If you stand behind a mountain bike so the rear derailleur is to your right hand side and then rotate the freewheel cog anticlockwise as the wheel itself is held steady it should move freely, correct (as in backpedaling)? If you turn the freewheel clockwise, however, it should bite and move the entire wheel forwards.
So, standing behind my rear wheel I'm turning my spanner in the same direction as when the freewheel can spin round freely (like in reverse pedaling). That is anticlockwise.
I figure the freewheel has to be removed screwing in the opposite direction of pedaling as when you pedal it must surely tighten it.
So, how come the freewheel won't come off? With cassettes I found it easy but this has all been beyond a joke.

Put tool into the freewheel, then put tool with wheel attached into a vice, then turn the wheel left, anti clockwise. Easier to turn the whole wheel than push on a spanner.

 

[alfeng]

So, how come the freewheel won't come off? With cassettes I found it easy but this has all been beyond a joke.

FWIW. Three of the last six freewheels that I've removed in the past few years were immovable-objects.

Since I wasn't planning to re-use the particular freewheels, I used a 4.5" hand grinder to remove the first cog (the rest of the cogs will slide off afterwards) + ring that holds the outer freewheel's shell on the core ... small ball bearings WILL fall out, so work over a medium-to-large box.

The parts you grind will be HOT! Do not touch them with your bare hands ...

Use a PIPE WRENCH to remove the freewheel's core (I have also ground "flats" onto the shell in the past) ... if you do this when the core is "hot" it will probably be easier because of the expansion of the metal ...

This is a crude, but effective method ...

The reason that some freewheels are impossible to remove is because of years of being tightened on the hub by continuous pedaling. The lockring that holds a cassette in place does not continue to tighten over time ...

 

[Carrera]

Well, I posted this yesterday and went to my bike store today before I noticed these responses. Here's what happened: I took the wheel in and told the guys there no matter how much I sweated, strained, cussed and wrestled, the freewheel wouldn't come off. I tried with a spanner and I tried by vice. The wheel itself was mishapen by this stage.
The store mechanic took the wheel, put it in his vice and turned with great effort. I watched with curiosity. The wheel creaked, groaned, popped and changed its shape to a more ovular form and finally the mechanic gave up. He couldn't budge it either. In a way that made me feel better knowing it wasn't just me.
Another mechanic had a go. He said he'd really give it some force and put the wheel in the vice again. He gave it all he had and the freewheel came off. So, I bought a new wheel and kept the freewheel.
This is what I tried and what I didn't do last time. I liberally coated my new wheel thread with bike grease and then I threaded on the new freewheel. This grease might help next time. I could also do with finding out if they sell any chemical solution you can use to loosen up the freewheel before applying a wrench, something like "getagrip".
P.S. with regard to correct direction of the wrench, I learned this: You should stand behind your wheel so the freewheel is on your right hand side and then it's anticlockwise always. It's against the pedal drive direction. I feel at least I learned something from all of this and will know what to expect next time.

FWIW. Three of the last six freewheels that I've removed in the past few years were immovable-objects.

Since I wasn't planning to re-use the particular freewheels, I used a 4.5" hand grinder to remove the first cog (the rest of the cogs will slide off afterwards) + ring that holds the outer freewheel's shell on the core ... small ball bearings WILL fall out, so work over a medium-to-large box.

The parts you grind will be HOT! Do not touch them with your bare hands ...

Use a PIPE WRENCH to remove the freewheel's core (I have also ground "flats" onto the shell in the past) ... if you do this when the core is "hot" it will probably be easier because of the expansion of the metal ...

This is a crude, but effective method ...

The reason that some freewheels are impossible to remove is because of years of being tightened on the hub by continuous pedaling. The lockring that holds a cassette in place does not continue to tighten over time ...

 

[Carrera]

I think this way demands a bit of a mechanic's feel because when I tried it my spokes were popping out and the wheel was twisting. I was totally stunned at the time. I was convinced I had to be going in the wrong direction but tried to follow like reverse pedal direction where the freewheel would normally spin backwards without the pawls engaging.
Maybe someone with more of a feel can snap it free using a vice without damaging spokes or bending the rim. For me, it was a disaster.
I'm hoping that by using the grease when I threaded the freewheel on and maybe buying a huge wrench maybe I can free it next time round.
But now I know it's not just me. This is by no means an easy task to perform. Shimano cassettes are much better are they not?

Put tool into the freewheel, then put tool with wheel attached into a vice, then turn the wheel left, anti clockwise. Easier to turn the whole wheel than push on a spanner.

 

[Retro Grouch]

This is what I tried and what I didn't do last time. I liberally coated my new wheel thread with bike grease and then I threaded on the new freewheel.

That's one of the drawbacks of spin-on freewheels. Everytime that you ride up a hill your freewheel tightens itself. The longer it's been in place the harder it is to get it off.

 

[Carrera]

I'd had no idea. I read through a good MTB general mechanics DIY book I got from the library and assumed this was a straightforward job. You can imagine when all my wheel got bent and spokes were breaking when I tried the vice, I felt I'd made a right mess of the job.
Where I may have gone wrong was by not greasing the last time when I screwed the freewheel on. Plus, I always ride MTB on the big chain-ring. It was a god job that last mechanic managed where two other had failed but, of course, the wheel just bent all over the place.

That's one of the drawbacks of spin-on freewheels. Everytime that you ride up a hill your freewheel tightens itself. The longer it's been in place the harder it is to get it off.

 

[kdelong]

Instead of bicycle grease you should use anti-seize tape, also known as teflon tape. It is not effected by wet weather, etc. You might also want to remove the freewheel occassionally just to help keep it loose.

I have used teflon tape on my old bicycles and never had much of a problem, although I always put the removal tool in a vise and turned the wheel. I remove the freewheels twice a year for a complete cleaning about the same time that I true up the wheels.

 

[Carrera]

That's what I originally wanted to do - true the wheels. Two spokes had popped out causing the wheel to buckle.
At the very least, I want to learn basic MTB maintenance as it saves so much bother if you can fix your own bike. I have yet to use a crank removal tool some day and hope it's not going to be as tough a prospect as I had with the freewheel.

Instead of bicycle grease you should use anti-seize tape, also known as teflon tape. It is not effected by wet weather, etc. You might also want to remove the freewheel occassionally just to help keep it loose.

I have used teflon tape on my old bicycles and never had much of a problem, although I always put the removal tool in a vise and turned the wheel. I remove the freewheels twice a year for a complete cleaning about the same time that I true up the wheels.

 

[dabac]

... I have yet to use a crank removal tool some day and hope it's not going to be as tough a prospect as I had with the freewheel.

At least on a crank puller you should find it easier to keep track of the correct direction of rotation

The minor troubles I've had with crank pullers have been:
1) damaged threads where the puller attaches
2) one (steel) crank was stuck bad enough to begin to cause damage to the puller spindle threads, and to the threads for the crank bolt. Had to improvise something to distribute the load, ended up bending the spindle before the crank popped loose.

 

[artemidorus]

Tell me you're not going to keep using a freewheel hub?

 

[Carrera]

What happened was I had a really good bike stolen. I used to commute on my roadbike a lot and chain it up. I used a pretty decent thick chain as well. One day, in broad daylight, a thief used bolt-croppers to get through the chain and was seen by a witness but never caught. So, I lost my bike. I then decided to use MTB for getting to work and back and bought a fairly cheap one. About 160 dollars U.S. or 80 pounds sterling. As the MTB is cheap it has a freewheel. I imagine the hub is cups and cones and bearings and not sealed bearings.

Tell me you're not going to keep using a freewheel hub?

 

[garage sale GT]

Antiseize lube may be a better tool for the job than plumbers tape, which is designed for sealing threaded pipe joints.

A fluid such as grease will slowly squeeze out from between threads under tension until you get metal to metal contact and seizure. Antiseize lube has a powdered, low shear stress metal such as copper, AL or zinc in it which will not squeeze out even when the oil carrier does, but will give way by shearing when the joint is disassembled even if it's seized up.

You can btw have sealed, cup and cone bearings. Shimano stuff up to Deore (and perhaps higher, what would I know ) has cup and cone bearings protected by rubber seals, as well as Nexus and whoever makes hubs for Velocity. Incidentally you can also get open, unsealed cartridge bearings for use inside motors or other enclosed places.

There used to be books available on how to seal a bike with shielded bearings using felt washers but I can't find any anymore.

I seem to remember Sheldon Brown had a few words on using a cassette wheel in a 7 speed freewheel mtb. I think you have to not use one ratio or find an old 7-speed cassette or something.

 

[Carrera]

I have a fair bit to learn. The bike is now up and running with the new wheel and old freewheel fitted. Tomorrow I'll give it a good overhaul and clean. It's a cheap bike but great for getting to town and to work. I keep my expensive roadbike in the garage since the theft and only take that out for training rides.
Plus, I'll give you all a very good tip in exchange for the free advice. Try using a motorcycle bike lock for your MTB. That's what I do. It weighs a ton but standard bolt croppers would have a hard time getting through the links.

Antiseize lube may be a better tool for the job than plumbers tape, which is designed for sealing threaded pipe joints.

A fluid such as grease will slowly squeeze out from between threads under tension until you get metal to metal contact and seizure. Antiseize lube has a powdered, low shear stress metal such as copper, AL or zinc in it which will not squeeze out even when the oil carrier does, but will give way by shearing when the joint is disassembled even if it's seized up.

You can btw have sealed, cup and cone bearings. Shimano stuff up to Deore (and perhaps higher, what would I know ) has cup and cone bearings protected by rubber seals, as well as Nexus and whoever makes hubs for Velocity. Incidentally you can also get open, unsealed cartridge bearings for use inside motors or other enclosed places.

There used to be books available on how to seal a bike with shielded bearings using felt washers but I can't find any anymore.

I seem to remember Sheldon Brown had a few words on using a cassette wheel in a 7 speed freewheel mtb. I think you have to not use one ratio or find an old 7-speed cassette or something.

 

[dabac]

.. I imagine the hub is cups and cones

Nothing inherently wrong with cups & cones

.. ..not sealed bearings.

Well, that's not too hot. Something will suffer when they're not sealed, performance, service interval, life.

 

[dabac]

...I seem to remember Sheldon Brown had a few words on using a cassette wheel in a 7 speed freewheel mtb. I think you have to not use one ratio or find an old 7-speed cassette or something.

The spacing is the same for a 7 spd cassette and a 7 spd freewheel, so no interchangeability issues there. But a wheel that originally took a 9 spd cassette will have a slightly longer body than a wheel that started out with a 7 spd cassette, so you probably need a spacer there.There might be some issues with wheel dish, dropout spacing and/or axle width.

 

[dabac]

...The bike is now up and running with the new wheel and old freewheel fitted.

A drawback to the freewheel design is that it places the bearing rather long inboard, which makes FW wheels prone to axle bending/breaking. In this thread a guy describes how it's possible to add a bearing to a FW wheel. Might be worth trying.

 

[garage sale GT]

The spacing is the same for a 7 spd cassette and a 7 spd freewheel, so no interchangeability issues there. But a wheel that originally took a 9 spd cassette will have a slightly longer body than a wheel that started out with a 7 spd cassette, so you probably need a spacer there.There might be some issues with wheel dish, dropout spacing and/or axle width.

I think the issue at hand is how to adapt a modern, readily available discount 8-9sp cassette wheel to the existing shifter without needing to buy any extras like a new derailleur or shifter. Can you still get 7sp cassette wheels?

Is there a reason to go cassette other than strength? I find that if you treat a fw bike with respect, it will hold up OK in commuting use.