Muni on the Moon?



gerblefranklin wrote:
> *Actually, if you hollowed out the moon evenly, the
> gravity on the inside would cancell and you'd be
> waitlessa, so yes, you could fly under your own power, but
> it'd kinda be cheating. *
The premise here was that building lunar habitations would
be easier underground, using rock as your building material.
Protection from temperature extremes and radiation. Crappy
view, though. I think the story I was reading assumed some
naturally-formed caves also. People would not hollow out
such a huge area and use it only for recreation. But it does
make sense to live underground when you have a shortage of
building supplies.

> *Also, Bush's plan for the moon is a load of bullsh**.*
Probably true. Especially if he was talking about any kind
of permanent base (I didn't hear the details). If you're
going to build a base, especially if you plan to use it as
a launching point for longer-distance trips, the only
sensible place is orbit. Doing it on the ground assumes
there are enough resources there to live on. The moon
doesn't have much.

But if Bush wants us to do more manned exploration, I'm all
for it. We can spend all of eternity trying to cure all the
world's ills, or we can work on multiple things at the same
time. It's like paying off your credit card bills. You
really should do that first, but some of us buy more
unicycles anyway because it improves our lives.

The United States gives out billions of dollars of relief
money each year through the government, and American
corporations and people give out many billions more than
that. Possibly even more than we spend on our pets (though I
kind of doubt it). We're not ignoring the rest of the world.

> *Also, by the time we're established enough on the moon to
> go for unicycle trials and the like people like Ryan
> Atkins and me will have been dead for about 30 years.*
Though this may sadly be true, I do hope to orbit the
earth and experience zero gravity (real, not simulated) in
my lifetime.

> Really, humanity has much more pressing concerns than
unicycling on
> the moon or Mars, and those won't happen for at least
> another century and a half.
>
> Also, someone post a counterpoint to this, and correct me
> if I'm wrong about anything.

Though it may be a century and a half on the unicycling
part, hopefully it will be much sooner for further
exploration and possible permanent or semi-permanent
habitation.

Of course we're fantasizing about the unicycle part, but
it's something I've thought about many times over the years.
Zero gravity=not much fun with a unicycle. Lunar
gravity=lots of new possibilities!

--
johnfoss - IUF Director

John Foss, the Uni-Cyclone
"jfoss" at "unicycling.com"
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"I went to the Liberace Museum and the Elvis-A-Rama Museum on the same
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They played golf on me moon- why not unicycle? The idea of
going to the moon is to re-vamp the public's interest in
space travel. This means the missions will be less science-
based and more publicity stunts. It will start iwth a bike,
then a penny-farthing, then a unicycle, then a giraffe.

Of course, by then there will be space tourism, and a trials
course run by the Hell on Wheel gang, and Rowan will still
be saying, "No way, they're not -really- on the moon...."

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sockmonster - Level 4

Funny how in this forum, no one thinks it's weird if someone says, "I
tacoed my giraffe..."
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First, yes, it's 6 000 000 000, not 6 000 000. I used the
noughts to avoid the Anglo/American dispute about the
definition of a billion - although I think the American
version has won that one anyway.

I don't blame NASA for much at all, and certainly not for
all the world's ills. I'm as pleased to see photos of Mars
as the next overgrown schoolkid. ;0)

Indeed, for the estimated £1500 I've spent on unicycling, or
even for the £1 a day I spent on tyres for my last
motorbike, or the £60 it costs me in petrol every time I
visit my partner in Devon, I could feed a fair few starving
Africans, educate a few people, and still have change for
some cataract operations for poor Indians.

My general point, though, is a serious one: attributing our
childlike desire to explore the Solar system to some noble
urge to push the limits of human achievement is hogwash.
It's a diversionary tactic.

The science which got man to the Moon was fairly simple
stuff - Jules Verne did a lot of the calculations and got
some surprisingly accurate results. The technology was
pretty Heath Robinson too. There was no subtlety in
strapping 3 blokes to a big tube of explosive and blasting
them up there. You and I have more computer power in our
homes than NASA used to control Apollo.

Let's just admit it's a branch of showbusiness, and a jolly
good one too. The big stuff (man walks on moon) is good for
the man in the street; the clever stuff (how do cells react
in zero G? Could life have existed on Mars?) is
entertainment for middlebrows like me, and the really clever
stuff is just fun and games for the very clever types.

If we wanted to push the frontiers of human achievement,
we'd commit massive resources to solving the world's
real problems.

End of Off Topic rant.

--
Mikefule - Roland Hope School of Unicycling

Sometimes I ride like a demon, sometimes like a lemon. It's an L of a
difference.
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Instead of canceling Nasa, to save money, how about
dystroying the Star wars program? The cost to clean all the
worlds water? 1/4 of the cost of that program. Theyre were
some other statistics I cant remember right now about the
cost of that program.

--
thin_air - ride the wheel

If you come to a fork in the road...
take it
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sockmonster wrote:
> *They played golf on me moon- why not unicycle?*
Obvious answer: The unicycle weighs a lot more than a golf
ball (not to mention the space it takes up).

But lots of people remember that golf shot (it was a real
golf ball, but the "club" was one of the tools they brought
up there anyway). It was probably one of the things that
got people thinking stuff like "what if I rode a unicycle
up there?"

One of the most fascinating examples of "vacuum vs. air" was
when one of the astronauts on the moon dropped a hammer from
one hand, and a feather from the other. They both dropped at
exactly the same rate of acceleration and hit the dust at
the same time. It looked absolutely wrong!

Anyone want to argue that space exploration hasn't advanced
science in thousands of ways, many of which benefit the
people down here every day? Bring it on.

--
johnfoss - IUF Director

John Foss, the Uni-Cyclone
"jfoss" at "unicycling.com"
www.unicycling.com

"I went to the Liberace Museum and the Elvis-A-Rama Museum on the same
day! This is not for everyone."
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Ironic... The thread where I get quoted the most happens
to be the one with the least pertinence to real
unicycling, whatever.

First, I wanna get out in the open to any naysayers that no
matter how much money you spend on a telescope, you _never_
will see any part of the lunar landers from orbit, let alone
Earth. It's simply a question of resolution. My best
telescope, a 10" (diameter, which is what matters. The
larger the diameter, the better the resolution, ergo the
sharper the image) F5 dobsonian, which would cost about $450-
600 to buy, can only resolve about 0.18 arcseconds at best.
The Keck telescopes atop Mauna Kea in Hawaii, can only
resolve about 0.009 arc seconds. Those telescopes' mirrors
are 10 meters across, and have adaptive optics, but still,
if you made the entire Apollo 12 landing site bright, neon
pink, the 2 Keck telescopes, even using inferometry (someone
else explain this one, I don't wanna. Basically it makes the
telescopes' combined resolution much better) they still
couldn't see the landing site. I saw some picture from Sky
and Telescope which shows the Apollo lander from the
perspective of the Apollo orbiter, and still the lander
occupied about 2 pixels of the film. So, don't ask too see
the lander in a telescope, it won't happen.

Next, I would like to say that in my opinion we most
definitely landed on the moon. Rowan, I may only say this:
NASA has much better things to do than answer some stupid
Fox producer's phone calls, just as I have much better
things to do then stop in the middle of an 8 lane street to
answer someone shouting out their window "How do you ride
that thing?"

Also, I believe that most of the landers landed on something
called a mare (prononuced Maaar-e, long a, soft e), which
you can see through the cheapest telescopes (and kinda with
your eyes) whenever the moon is anywhere near full. Mare are
big, flat areas only found on the side of the moon facing
earth (the other side is so much more heavily cratered that
it's much more rugged, better muni). When you land a 10
meter lander on a large, volcanic plain 300 kilometers
across, on a small celestial object, the horizon is so close
that you probably can't see the end of the mare without
getting really high up, or traveling 100km. Also, those
pictures of a gibous Earth that were taken from the moon
were most definitely taken from the moon because NASA
doesn't send multi-million dollar orbiters out just to get a
nice shot of the home. Those were snapped by astronauts.
Also, the vistas that were taken on the moon can be prove
that they were on the moon by finding the distance from the
horzon in the picture. In those pictures the horizon is very
near, yet on earth the horizon is *very* far away. Just
compare the curves, and you see the difference. As for those
crosshairs, I have no idea about that. But still, how do you
explain the video of Buzz Aldrin (or was it someone else?)
dropping a rock and feather on the surface of the moon and
having them fall at equal velocities. I think that is rock
solid proof, because that will never happen anywhere on
earth, with the alkali flats of Arizona being no exception.

Finally, I want to say that going to the moon is extremely
hard. Jules Verne did the conceptual calculations, not the
practical ones. Getting those orbiter thrusters to fire
right when you have a whopping 4 minutes worth of fuel is
not easy. If it were, we all would do advanced zero-g calcus
in eighth grade. Figuring out how to ignite 2 tons of
gunpowder without killing everyone within a kilometer is not
easy. Conceptual calculation is a completely different
monster from practical calculation.

My second $0.02.

--
gerblefranklin

I don't break equipment, I make it cheaper.
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I didn't realize how far off I was with the telescope thing.

Let me revise: Get a really good, expensive telescope. Then
look at one of the landing sites at sunrise or sunset, when
the sunlight is horizontal to the surface. I have a feeling
you will be able to make out some shadows.

Of course you can argue what those shadows are being cast
from. Or just continue to wallow in ignorance. Conspiracies
are fun to believe in. But they're hard to prove, because
most of the most "popular" ones are B.S.

Going to the moon took a lot of effort. Tearing down is
easier than building. I'm with the ones who went there. Many
people believe in horoscopes Loch Ness monsters, Yeti, etc.
You are not alone.

--
johnfoss - IUF Director

John Foss, the Uni-Cyclone
"jfoss" at "unicycling.com"
www.unicycling.com

"I went to the Liberace Museum and the Elvis-A-Rama Museum on the same
day! This is not for everyone."
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Ever press "quote" instead of "edit?" Me too. Oops.

--
johnfoss - IUF Director

John Foss, the Uni-Cyclone
"jfoss" at "unicycling.com"
www.unicycling.com

"I went to the Liberace Museum and the Elvis-A-Rama Museum on the same
day! This is not for everyone."
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johnfoss wrote:
> *I didn't realize how far off I was with the
> telescope thing.
>
> Let me revise: Get a really good, expensive telescope, or
> borrow one at a university. Then look at one of the
> landing sites at sunrise or sunset, when the sunlight is
> horizontal to the surface. You should be able to make out
> some shadows of the larger man-made objects. *

Not to be on your case, but that'd be extremely difficult.
Astronomers can spend their entire lives observing the same
spot on the moon, and still never get the same view twice.
And what you're describing is called the lunar terminator,
the threshold between lunar day and night. Even then the
shadows would need to be about 1kilometer wide in order for
you to be able to resolve it, and that would require
excessive magnification around 350x and also you'd need
exceptionally steady air to keep distortions to a minimum.
The latest Sky and Telescope has a photo on page 119 of a
portion of the east side of the moon mean mare crisium,
which was taken somewhere near 300x of a crater about 300
kilometers wide. Using that as a scale, I can't resolve any
feautures in the picture that are over about 1km across, and
those just look like dots. Also, no universities I know of
have telescopes larger than about 8 meters. And those have
year-long waiting lists, and you never actually gedt to look
through it, especially at the moon, which would be so bright
that it would blind you. So, you may as well just build a
lunar orbiter, cuz that and some really good binoculars is
what you need to see the bottom half of the lunar lander,
and still it'd only appear as a small smudge.

--
gerblefranklin

I don't break equipment, I make it cheaper.
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Has no one seen this shirt?

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--
zach_jucha

-Don't ask me why I said it, because I already forgot.-

- Homestar

-Hah, it would be like having to choose between enduring an endless
torture
session of paper cuts (me) vs being pampered by the Swedish women's
volleyball team (Kris).-

- James Hargrave on hanging out with him versus Kris Holm
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johnfoss wrote:
> *Rowan and Gild, you sure like to stir things up! Get
> yourselves a damn telescope. Better yet, build one of your
> own, so you won't have to worry about conspriacies by the
> telescope companies. Then do some research about where the
> moon landings claim to have been.
>
> Then see for yourselves. We did not clean up after
> ourselves up there. Tire tracks, flags, footprints (might
> be a bit hard to make out), The bottom half of each LEM,
> and the Mariners and other probes that have landed (or
> crashed) there. *
Typical, no concern for the environment. Leaving trash for
someone else to clean up after you. Maybe your space junk
landed on the Moon, but no people did. If it is so easy to
land on the moon why has no one gone back?johnfoss wrote:
> *Why pretend to go to the moon anyway, instead of just
> going there? Apparently the Soviets believed it, or the
> space race would not have ended. *
That is exactly the point. Tricking the Soviets is a
possible reason why egotistical Americans would want to
falsify such a claim. There can only ever be one bunch of
first people to do something like a moon landing, and
America's big head would have shrivelled if they were
second to the Russians. Going there would have been quite
difficult, and the astronauts would have died from
radiation, they didn't have huge thick lead walls in their
spaceship. Faking it was easy enough, except for all the
flaws in their mock-up which they overlooked. You could ask
the same question about cheating in a running race. Why
would someone take performance enhancing drugs to win? Why
not just win naturally? Why can I not believe everything on
TV? If the conspiracy theory is questionable because it was
on TV, then the Moon landing is equally as questionable.>
*Many people believe in astrology, random predictions of
the future,
> the Loch Ness monster, etc. You're in good company.*
You're so gullible John. You are the one in good company
with the Loch Ness believers. Actually I think a large
lake creature is far more feasable than your telescope
nonsense. Yetis are out there too, just watch Into the
Thunder Dragon for proof, Kris Holm and Nathan Hoover
would never lie to us! ;)

--
Rowan - _________
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arguing about something this esoteric makes as about as much
sence and arguing about the existance of Jesus because it
comes down to the fact that there is no way that either
party can show with one-hundred percent certanity that their
argument represent the absolute truth.

--
XWonka - Touch My Tooter

"Plus, if Elmer sees anyone commiting any crimes against safety, he can
crush them with his huge ass."
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XWonka wrote:
> *it comes down to the fact that there is no way that
> either party can show with one-hundred percent certanity
> that their argument represent the absolute truth. *
Actually, the conspiracy theory program proved their point
with 150% certainty, by giving so much evidence that it was
absolutely conclusive. There was not much of a reply from
the other side (NASA), and they didn't provide any real
proof of a moon landing, apart from the images which were
used to prove they didn't go anywhere. It will be
interesting to see if the next moon scam fails, there is
much better technology these days.

--
Rowan - _________
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On Tue, 13 Jan 2004 18:53:36 -0600, johnfoss
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Ever press "quote" instead of "edit?" Me too. Oops.

Click [Back] and you never need to confess this.

Klaas Bil - Newsgroup Addict
--
I have a feeling you might need two points of contact with
the ground for such a thing to work? Or at least training
wheels on the front and rear. - John Foss commenting on a
picture of a one-wheeled vehicle he saw on RSU.
 
Rowan wrote:
> *Actually, the conspiracy theory program proved their
> point with 150% certainty, by giving so much evidence that
> it was absolutely conclusive. There was not much of a
> reply from the other side (NASA), and they didn't provide
> any real proof of a moon landing, apart from the images
> which were used to prove they didn't go anywhere. *
The fact that NASA didn't respond is conclusive of
something? That's interesting.

Do you really, truly think a wrinkly flag hanging from a
stick (of course it doesn't stick out if there's no air; it
also doesn't hang very flat) is the big proof the moon
photos are fake? The stick runs across the top of the flag,
of course.

The world is round. That one I can prove. I'm not sure if
you really
(dis)believe this stuff, or if you're just being
controversial. If the stuff was fake, you should be
able to prove *that.*

Anyway, we're getting pretty far from unicycling here. I'm
done.

--
johnfoss - IUF Director

John Foss, the Uni-Cyclone
"jfoss" at "unicycling.com"
www.unicycling.com

"I went to the Liberace Museum and the Elvis-A-Rama Museum on the same
day! This is not for everyone."
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johnfoss wrote:
> * I'm not sure if you really (dis)believe this stuff, or
> if you're just being controversial. If the stuff was
> fake, you should be able to prove *that.**
You busted me John. I don't know what to believe and I don't
really care either way. I thought the crosshairs proof was
pretty good though, I haven't seen a good comeback for why
images are superimposed on top of them. The flag waving
thing had an OK explanation at that NASA website. I'm a bit
bored of this topic too, maybe I should give it a rest.

Today I was in the crater of Mt Taranaki and it reminded me
of this thread. There were all these rocks sunken into the
ice, looking like asteroids from outerspace. The rocks had
melted what looked like craters around them. I lifted one up
and weirdly enough it was swarming with insects (maybe there
is life on the moon too). I did some mountain Unicycling on
the way down from Tahurangi lodge (wearing my Do the Muni
T-shirt). Whoooohooooo, it was fun!

--
Rowan - _________
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Boy, this thread has wandered almost to the Moon itself! I
was sort of hoping to get the technical folks thinking about
designing a Muni for low-gravity conditions - like maybe one
of the many talented people in this group would have come up
with a sketch or computer-generated pic of a spidery-looking
lunicycle. You know, the sort of thing you'd expect to see
on the cover of "Astounding Science Fiction" from 1955. I've
seen the Uni.com t-shirt with the Apollo-suited rider, but
it looks too cumbersome. Anybody out there with more
imagination than that?

Doug

--
dforbes - Unicycling Newfie
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