Museeuw, the real doper, is up a creek



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De Clercq's not the sharpest guy out there, is he? Who in their right minds, even if they were hypothetically taking EPO, would have a notebook saying:

"January
3 Diprophos
7 EPO
9 EPO
11 EPO
12 Diprophos
17 EPO
19 Diprophos
22 EPO
24 EPO
25 EPO
28 EPO"

Instead of something like:

January -- Watched 3 TV segments
Played music 7 songs
Played music 9 songs...
 
"humdreds of doping products"? Is that you Flyer? haa.
More like 3 products à 4 doses, as the cyclingnews article says.
 
hombredesubaru said:
Here is the real thing, not a dated, invalid, illegal test--but police acquisition of humdreds of doping products.

Too Bad Hincapie didnt win Roubaix that year Museeuw dropped everyone and did a solo 50 km to the line, all powered by Arenesp.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2005/oct05/oct03news2


I'm looking at a photo here as I write of JM taken in 1993 winning the Tour of Flanders.
His hair is receding big time and he looks like a thin little whippet.

Contrast that image to the powerful build, full head of hair of more recent years.
That EPO must have some kick all the same.
 
hombredesubaru said:
Here is the real thing, not a dated, invalid, illegal test--but police acquisition of humdreds of doping products.

Too Bad Hincapie didnt win Roubaix that year Museeuw dropped everyone and did a solo 50 km to the line, all powered by Arenesp.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2005/oct05/oct03news2

I get it - only Europeans dope, all Americans are squeaky clean, is that it?

What utter bollox - and you seriously think that Hincapie - a sprinter who know wins mountain stages - does it all on mineral water and hard training?
 
micron said:
I get it - only Europeans dope, all Americans are squeaky clean, is that it?

What utter bollox - and you seriously think that Hincapie - a sprinter who know wins mountain stages - does it all on mineral water and hard training?

Mic, he's the person who says that he believes Hamilton is clean too !
 
It seems that some posters are arguing for a new doping standard: testing positive for blood transfusions or EPO is not sufficient to prove doping, no matter how conclusive and reliable the tests might be. In order to be confirmed as a doper, you must actually be caught with a journal full of EPO notes and a backpack full of needles.

But does anyone doubt in the least that if the situation was reversed, and it was Armstrong and Hamilton with the EPO journal, that the doping-deniers would be arguing that EPO is Lance's pet-name for Sheryl Crow or "Email Postal" or something else? Or if Lance had a needle full of steroids sticking in his butt that Jan Ullrich put it there?

Museeuw, Perez, Gonzalez, Hamilton, Armstrong. Dopers. I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt to riders when there isn't evidence. But in the world of professional cycling, evidence of doping, whether a test or notebook full of EPO notations, is enough for me to accept a presumption of doping.
 
tcklyde said:
It seems that some posters are arguing for a new doping standard: testing positive for blood transfusions or EPO is not sufficient to prove doping, no matter how conclusive and reliable the tests might be. In order to be confirmed as a doper, you must actually be caught with a journal full of EPO notes and a backpack full of needles.

But does anyone doubt in the least that if the situation was reversed, and it was Armstrong and Hamilton with the EPO journal, that the doping-deniers would be arguing that EPO is Lance's pet-name for Sheryl Crow or "Email Postal" or something else? Or if Lance had a needle full of steroids sticking in his butt that Jan Ullrich put it there?

Museeuw, Perez, Gonzalez, Hamilton, Armstrong. Dopers. I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt to riders when there isn't evidence. But in the world of professional cycling, evidence of doping, whether a test or notebook full of EPO notations, is enough for me to accept a presumption of doping.

You would fit in well with certain Americans who think intelligent design is an answer to one of the over-arching theories in modern biology.
Yes, I think there's a difference between Museeuw who was caught with many vials of illegal doping products and the de facto center of a doping ring---and Armstrong and Tyler who are being impuned with bad science, demagogues instead of fair arbiters, paparazzi style journalism instead of true investigation etc etc.

While I am glad the Aussies won the Nobel in Medicine tiday for Heliobacter pylori...too bad the suspected winners who developed the SOuthern Blot for DNA testing didnt, eh fellows? The similar techniques were later used in creating electrophoretic fingerprints for testing Lyme Disease, EPO etc etcwhich we now know with EPO has been vastly overrated as a test and used to destroy peoples' careers.

Yes, there is a difference if you have a pharmacy full of EPO and steroids in your closet...
 
hombredesubaru said:
You would fit in well with certain Americans who think intelligent design is an answer to one of the over-arching theories in modern biology.
Yes, I think there's a difference between Museeuw who was caught with many vials of illegal doping products and the de facto center of a doping ring---and Armstrong and Tyler who are being impuned with bad science, demagogues instead of fair arbiters, paparazzi style journalism instead of true investigation etc etc.

While I am glad the Aussies won the Nobel in Medicine tiday for Heliobacter pylori...too bad the suspected winners who developed the SOuthern Blot for DNA testing didnt, eh fellows? The similar techniques were later used in creating electrophoretic fingerprints for testing Lyme Disease, EPO etc etcwhich we now know with EPO has been vastly overrated as a test and used to destroy peoples' careers.

Yes, there is a difference if you have a pharmacy full of EPO and steroids in your closet...

I'm standing behind the science, my friend. It's Hamilton and his "disappearing twin" and Lance and the magical appearance of EPO in his urine who are asking fans to believe in the supernatural.
 
Sounds more like HGH... look at the before and after shots of Barry Bonds... skinny little rookie that looks like King Kong now.

OTOH, people can bulk up for sprinting and get hair transplants or use Rogaine, so there are alternative explanations in JM's case. I'd prefer to grant him the benefit of the doubt, in the absence of hard evidence of use. But that's being generous, since they did find a few doses of EPO in his house.

De Clercq, on the other hand, has already admitted that the notebook is his. Says he was researching for a novel he is writing. Perhaps his 'research' became a little too realistic? He should have denied, or dreamed up a better excuse. Guilty, by reason of stupidity.

Oliver Penney could open up a drug store with all the stuff he was caught with. Maybe that's his explanation?

Ah, this blows. What is it going to take to get the dope out? Be nice to have a sport we could believe in. Perhaps a baseline physiology that future changes are measured against is an idea whose time has come?


limerickman said:
I'm looking at a photo here as I write of JM taken in 1993 winning the Tour of Flanders.
His hair is receding big time and he looks like a thin little whippet.

Contrast that image to the powerful build, full head of hair of more recent years.
That EPO must have some kick all the same.
 
hombredesubaru said:
....<snip> ---and Armstrong and Tyler who are being impuned with bad science, demagogues instead of fair arbiters, paparazzi style journalism instead of true investigation etc etc. <snip>....
Where is the bad science?

Are you privy to an appeal win for Hamilton based on him proving the blood doping test is bad science?

Is Armstrong also prone to exercise induced urinary protein loss like Rutger Beke thereby making his 6 1999 samples false positives? Why no false positives for LA in 2001 to 2005 then?

Is the only fair arbiter the panelist appointed by Hamilton who dissented?
 
JohnO said:
Sounds more like HGH... look at the before and after shots of Barry Bonds... skinny little rookie that looks like King Kong now.

OTOH, people can bulk up for sprinting and get hair transplants or use Rogaine, so there are alternative explanations in JM's case. I'd prefer to grant him the benefit of the doubt, in the absence of hard evidence of use. But that's being generous, since they did find a few doses of EPO in his house.

De Clercq, on the other hand, has already admitted that the notebook is his. Says he was researching for a novel he is writing. Perhaps his 'research' became a little too realistic? He should have denied, or dreamed up a better excuse. Guilty, by reason of stupidity.

Oliver Penney could open up a drug store with all the stuff he was caught with. Maybe that's his explanation

Ah, this blows. What is it going to take to get the dope out? Be nice to have a sport we could believe in. Perhaps a baseline physiology that future changes are measured against is an idea whose time has come?

The entire doping culture is deep seated - so deep seated that people will literally use any excuse to try to wrangle their way out when they're caught.

It pains me to see the level of total denial that has permeated the upper echelons of the sport.
I think the issue of doping and the the solution to the doping problems has to be muti-dimensional.

It would be nice to have a sport that we could believe in - I went past that stage many years ago.
When I see a performance, a question mark always comes in to it.

We have a discredited sport unfortunately.
 
limerickman said:
The entire doping culture is deep seated - so deep seated that people will literally use any excuse to try to wrangle their way out when they're caught.

It pains me to see the level of total denial that has permeated the upper echelons of the sport.
I think the issue of doping and the the solution to the doping problems has to be muti-dimensional.

It would be nice to have a sport that we could believe in - I went past that stage many years ago.
When I see a performance, a question mark always comes in to it.

We have a discredited sport unfortunately.

and we can debate this in forums until the cows come home but there's bugger all we can really do about it - boycott products maybe? or simply stop turning out to watch races or don't subscribe to channels that show cycling? And you think that would make any difference? There'll always be fans who don't care or are in denial.

No, the change has to come from the top - from the sponsors who gloss over the scandals and from the UCI who are so desperate not to kill the goose that lays the golden egg that they will do anything to give the big stars a free pass.

The Spanish are passing a law to make dopers in sport liable to prison sentences. Italy has a sporting fraud law. France has the most stringent testing and list of banned substances of any cycling federation. And until this becomes uniform across all nations involved in cycling there isn't a hope in hell that testing will ever be anything but (and very reluctantly at that) reactive and not proactive.

The latest UCI investigation into the Armstrong affair will seek only to find out who leaked the information - because it's more important to defend the reputation of golden goose Armstrong than to actually find out why UCI testing doesn't work. After all, Museeuw isn't under investigation because he failed a dope test - on the contrary Museeuw, like Armstrong, has never tested positive.

So, it's more of the same - the smaller fish taking the rap and the bigger fish getting a free pass - so long as they're not stupid enough to get caught. Armstrong didn't think he'd be caught because there was no EPO test in 1999 - or rather the UCI had not validated the urinary EPO test. The UCI were finally forced to sign up for the WADA code or face exclusion from the Olympics - and for a sport desperate to globalise, losing a place in the largest sporting showcase on earth is not a clever thing to do. Nor is killing the golden goose that potentially opens up the great American market...
 
Micron,

I agree with every word that you have posted here.
We can do bugger all about it, debating it here.

But.

I recall when Armstrong's latest doping allegations were highlighted (and rightly so) by L'Equipe, some here attempted to portray WADA as being on a witch hunt.

Let's be clear WADA was created because individual sporting national doping federations were turning a blind eye to doping in their own jurisdictions.

And this is the bind : I believe that the fans do have some momentum in the issue of doping.
if the fans create sufficient critical mass, I believe it can help to change the sport for the better.
That critical mass can be created through not supporting teams who do dope,
not buying products from companies who have been seen to provide financial support to riders who dope, by writing to publications expressing dismay at how cheating has ruined the sport and by writing to the tossers who run the UCI under.

In addition, I would ask members here to not **** off WADA just because their favourite rider has been caught cheating.
WADA are doing the job which the national federations willfully chose not to do.

Finally, I do think the criminalisation of doping would be a good measure as well in the war on cheats.
I welcome the approach taken in recent years by the civil authorities and police forces.

micron said:
and we can debate this in forums until the cows come home but there's bugger all we can really do about it - boycott products maybe? or simply stop turning out to watch races or don't subscribe to channels that show cycling? And you think that would make any difference? There'll always be fans who don't care or are in denial.

No, the change has to come from the top - from the sponsors who gloss over the scandals and from the UCI who are so desperate not to kill the goose that lays the golden egg that they will do anything to give the big stars a free pass.

The Spanish are passing a law to make dopers in sport liable to prison sentences. Italy has a sporting fraud law. France has the most stringent testing and list of banned substances of any cycling federation. And until this becomes uniform across all nations involved in cycling there isn't a hope in hell that testing will ever be anything but (and very reluctantly at that) reactive and not proactive.

The latest UCI investigation into the Armstrong affair will seek only to find out who leaked the information - because it's more important to defend the reputation of golden goose Armstrong than to actually find out why UCI testing doesn't work. After all, Museeuw isn't under investigation because he failed a dope test - on the contrary Museeuw, like Armstrong, has never tested positive.

So, it's more of the same - the smaller fish taking the rap and the bigger fish getting a free pass - so long as they're not stupid enough to get caught. Armstrong didn't think he'd be caught because there was no EPO test in 1999 - or rather the UCI had not validated the urinary EPO test. The UCI were finally forced to sign up for the WADA code or face exclusion from the Olympics - and for a sport desperate to globalise, losing a place in the largest sporting showcase on earth is not a clever thing to do. Nor is killing the golden goose that potentially opens up the great American market...
 
limerickman said:
I'm looking at a photo here as I write of JM taken in 1993 winning the Tour of Flanders.
His hair is receding big time and he looks like a thin little whippet.

Contrast that image to the powerful build, full head of hair of more recent years.
That EPO must have some kick all the same.

That's weird! If the stuff makes a person more muscular and restores hair growth you'd think they'd be dying to market it to the general public (at least here in the USA, plastic surgery capital of the world...) as the next big "fountain of youth" type product. :eek:
 
tcklyde said:
I'm standing behind the science, my friend. It's Hamilton and his "disappearing twin" and Lance and the magical appearance of EPO in his urine who are asking fans to believe in the supernatural.

Can't argue with you there tcklyde!
 
meehs said:
That's weird! If the stuff makes a person more muscular and restores hair growth you'd think they'd be dying to market it to the general public (at least here in the USA, plastic surgery capital of the world...) as the next big "fountain of youth" type product. :eek:

Maybe Museeuw could use this as his defence - that he was only awaiting an export licence to sell the stuff in the USA !

But seriously, maybe it's the quality of the photo but the Lion of Flanders looked older and less powerful in this photo 12 years ago than he does in the
Cycle Sport photo of him sitting beside Paolo Bettini at the QS table photo for the pre 2004 season review.

Physically Museeuw's appearance altered.
 
limerickman said:
Maybe Museeuw could use this as his defence - that he was only awaiting an export licence to sell the stuff in the USA !

But seriously, maybe it's the quality of the photo but the Lion of Flanders looked older and less powerful in this photo 12 years ago than he does in the
Cycle Sport photo of him sitting beside Paolo Bettini at the QS table photo for the pre 2004 season review.

Physically Museeuw's appearance altered.
This news of Museeuw's scandal is saddening. Today I was looking through the internet and found a article of Bert Pronk's death last spring. It was news to me. Knetemann.....Pronk. Sometimes we just have to connect the dots. I have had a deep interest in cycling for over 30 years, but I question if I want to still maintain being a fan. The doping situation in the Pro ranks is something I am not sure there is a solution to.
I am losing interest fast in the Pros. Great soap opera though....
 
wolfix said:
This news of Museeuw's scandal is saddening. Today I was looking through the internet and found a article of Bert Pronk's death last spring. It was news to me. Knetemann.....Pronk. Sometimes we just have to connect the dots. I have had a deep interest in cycling for over 30 years, but I question if I want to still maintain being a fan. The doping situation in the Pro ranks is something I am not sure there is a solution to.
I am losing interest fast in the Pros. Great soap opera though....

As I say, I see a performance and the natural instinct is to applaud.
But not any more.
While I admire the performances, that question is always there "is it genuine ?"

Sad state of affairs.
 
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