My achillies' heel, and my MD

Discussion in 'General Fitness' started by [email protected], Feb 10, 2005.

  1. I thought this might be of interest to any of you who have had nagging
    injuries and unsympathetic doctors.

    I have been bothered by achillies pain for almost a year. Last spring
    I took a month off, and then cranked up the mileage so that I could run
    a marathon in October. By October, the heel was feeling pretty bad, so
    after the marathon I reduced my mileage to about 20 mpw. It got no
    better, so I stopped running altogether in mid December, starting again
    after the first of the year. I had pain almost immediately.

    I have read more than anybody would ever want to know about this
    injury, and have learned that some (see Noakes et. al) are now saying
    that it isn't tendonitis per say, but really tedonosis, a degenerative
    (but often reversible) condition of the tendon.

    I have done heat and ice. I have done ice alone. I have done calf
    strengtheing exercises til the cows came home. I have stretched, and I
    have refrained from stretching.

    So 3 weeks ago, I stopped running again, thinking that a month off
    might be just what I need. By yesterday, the problem was still bad so
    I went to see an MD (I spent much of last summer in the office of a
    sports therapist in the office of a chiro).

    The MD (a GP and close acquaintence of mine) looks at the heel, rubs
    it, and piches it in just the right (wrong!) place, and diagnoses
    achillies tendonitis. He says take 3 ibuprophens 3X daily for 7-10
    days, use ice and heat, stretch. He says: "You know, this running is
    not a good long-term methond of maintaining cardiovascular fitness."
    He reminded me that Jim Fixx died.

    Now if, at the beginning of our visit, he had told me what he thought
    about running, I would have known I had come to the wrong place and
    saved us both some time.

    I only write to say that I have much respect for the medical community,
    but we cannot let that respect turn into blind obedience. He is a good
    MD, but he, I believe, is just really, really uninformed about running,
    running injuries, the cardio benefits of running and probably some
    other things, too. And if I didn't already know a good deal about my
    injury, I would not have known that, and would have probably quit
    running--on the advice of my doctor!

    So what am I doing? Three ibuprophens 3X daily for 7-10 days, ice and
    heat (maybe no heat) and I am off running until this feels better. I
    really want to run another fall marathon.

    May you all avoid achillies hell.

    Brian Jones
     
    Tags:


  2. Check your cow's milk spout!
     
  3. Ms.
    Ane Jones, Brian, Socrates, infinite
    Series
    [...]
    Yall, please, now! So, well, too, you do, so please just ~
    Come on down,
    Poplulate Morning Wood, please
    Play each day with me.

    Flowers, trees, bumble bees, grass,
    A pleasant breeze. Or just see ~

    "A Stranger Anomaly ~
    Those Spindly
    Spiky Tree Limbs Spoke, Then Ran Away!"

    The bona fide scientists. [Bogus Backing]

    .... believe me,
    I DO surprise that academic constituency, [The Truth too Noxious
    To Believe]
    Also. [How many harassment complaints
    Filed?]"
    ~ Raving

    *

    ~ * ~ The Ratty Rascals
    Brewery ~ * ~

    ~ * Motto!
    "When the cat's away..."

    ~ * ~

    "Are you there, Twittering?
    Care to go trout tickling tomorrow?"
    ~ Raving

    "Not yet, still hanging, still
    Adrift, still sailing, still yelling, still healing,
    Or trying.
    What's that?"
    ~ Moi

    *
    [Side Barre]

    ~ A Moping Manor, Or Grrl Meets A
    Very Grosse
    Anatomical Member, &
    Remembers ~

    ~ Balle's Belle ...

    A
    Kind of similarity, or
    "The Amusing Fingers," adopt similar kindly categories
    For The Undone Noveliste,
    A visit to Triesiteste, and
    The "Testiest Illumination." Although in literary terms,
    Or "The Realistic Evergrowth," coincidence counts.
    The constant only counts one
    Of the means, the truth another. So
    If the handles
    White out your sense, or sentiment, your constancy
    Illuminates "The Club's Ante," a
    Chambor. For the chandelier's champagne champleve,
    If the handles whine or silver your Non
    Luminous counter, then you hail heavy
    Delphins ~ The first club on the stack's back blocks,
    So you'll second your notice until
    The handle also illuminates. Or just see ~
    People of that Phase, or completely coincidence.

    ~ * ~
     
  4. Ted

    Ted Guest

    What are you, stupid? You go on and on about how incompetent the jerk
    is, then tell us you're following his advice to the letter?
     
  5. Ted wrote:
    > What are you, stupid? You go on and on about how incompetent the jerk
    > is, then tell us you're following his advice to the letter?


    A. It's not proven that he's incompetent. He could be wrong and
    competent at the same time. And his advice might be right on the
    money.

    B. He's not a jerk. He's a pretty good guy, and a Minnesota Twins
    fan, so I think he's OK.

    C. Of course I'm stupid, Ted. That was the point of the post.


    Brian Jones
     
  6. Don Kirkman

    Don Kirkman Guest

    It seems to me I heard somewhere that [email protected] wrote in
    article <[email protected]>:

    >I thought this might be of interest to any of you who have had nagging
    >injuries and unsympathetic doctors.


    >I have been bothered by achillies pain for almost a year. Last spring
    >I took a month off, and then cranked up the mileage so that I could run
    >a marathon in October. By October, the heel was feeling pretty bad, so
    >after the marathon I reduced my mileage to about 20 mpw. It got no
    >better, so I stopped running altogether in mid December, starting again
    >after the first of the year. I had pain almost immediately.


    >I have read more than anybody would ever want to know about this
    >injury, and have learned that some (see Noakes et. al) are now saying
    >that it isn't tendonitis per say, but really tedonosis, a degenerative
    >(but often reversible) condition of the tendon.


    >I have done heat and ice. I have done ice alone. I have done calf
    >strengtheing exercises til the cows came home. I have stretched, and I
    >have refrained from stretching.


    >So 3 weeks ago, I stopped running again, thinking that a month off
    >might be just what I need. By yesterday, the problem was still bad so
    >I went to see an MD (I spent much of last summer in the office of a
    >sports therapist in the office of a chiro).


    >The MD (a GP and close acquaintence of mine) looks at the heel, rubs
    >it, and piches it in just the right (wrong!) place, and diagnoses
    >achillies tendonitis. He says take 3 ibuprophens 3X daily for 7-10
    >days, use ice and heat, stretch. He says: "You know, this running is
    >not a good long-term methond of maintaining cardiovascular fitness."
    >He reminded me that Jim Fixx died.


    >Now if, at the beginning of our visit, he had told me what he thought
    >about running, I would have known I had come to the wrong place and
    >saved us both some time.


    >I only write to say that I have much respect for the medical community,
    >but we cannot let that respect turn into blind obedience. He is a good
    >MD, but he, I believe, is just really, really uninformed about running,
    >running injuries, the cardio benefits of running and probably some
    >other things, too. And if I didn't already know a good deal about my
    >injury, I would not have known that, and would have probably quit
    >running--on the advice of my doctor!


    >So what am I doing? Three ibuprophens 3X daily for 7-10 days, ice and
    >heat (maybe no heat) and I am off running until this feels better. I
    >really want to run another fall marathon.


    I fire doctors who don't take my symptoms seriously, especially if it's
    based on a prejudgment about runners or heart patients or other general
    conditions. It could well be tendinitis, but since you've raised the
    possibility of a degenerative condition you may want a second opinion
    from a rheumatologist; it may be worth the cost to have the peace of
    mind if it is only tendinitis, and it certainly would be worthwhile to
    get a quick jump on the situation if it is a degenerative disease like
    those in the huge rheumatoid arthritis family. Good luck, whatever you
    decide.
    --
    Don
    [email protected]
     
  7. Dear Brian,

    Sorry you've had so much injury and grief. Now to my practical advice
    .... on care and management of your doctor!

    When your doctor tells you "do this and take these" and you've already
    done that, you've got to say back, "been there, done that, didn't work,
    what's the next step?" I'm a GP (board certified, residency trained
    Family Physician), and I might have suggested those first steps, but
    then I'd also think of what to do next, and what to do after that, and
    thensome. Now I don't know the particulars of your ankle situation, so
    I won't pretend to be able to give you any stellar advice that will
    solve what is clearly a significant injury. But I suspect that at some
    point your GP will offer you referral to someone with more expertise in
    the tricky cases. You deserve that, and I make those referrals all the
    time. When your GP recommends sports physical therapist, you can say,
    "did that, too". And then recommends ice and a long course of rehab
    exercises, you can say, "did that, too." I bet a referral to either
    podiatrist, orthopedist, or sports medicine specialist is in your near
    future, and I hope you get all the help and recovery you need.

    Best regards,
    -- Josh Steinberg MD, Syracuse


    [email protected] wrote:
    > I thought this might be of interest to any of you who have had nagging
    > injuries and unsympathetic doctors.
    >
    > I have been bothered by achillies pain for almost a year. Last spring
    > I took a month off, and then cranked up the mileage so that I could run
    > a marathon in October. By October, the heel was feeling pretty bad, so
    > after the marathon I reduced my mileage to about 20 mpw. It got no
    > better, so I stopped running altogether in mid December, starting again
    > after the first of the year. I had pain almost immediately.
    >
    > I have read more than anybody would ever want to know about this
    > injury, and have learned that some (see Noakes et. al) are now saying
    > that it isn't tendonitis per say, but really tedonosis, a degenerative
    > (but often reversible) condition of the tendon.
    >
    > I have done heat and ice. I have done ice alone. I have done calf
    > strengtheing exercises til the cows came home. I have stretched, and I
    > have refrained from stretching.
    >
    > So 3 weeks ago, I stopped running again, thinking that a month off
    > might be just what I need. By yesterday, the problem was still bad so
    > I went to see an MD (I spent much of last summer in the office of a
    > sports therapist in the office of a chiro).
    >
    > The MD (a GP and close acquaintence of mine) looks at the heel, rubs
    > it, and piches it in just the right (wrong!) place, and diagnoses
    > achillies tendonitis. He says take 3 ibuprophens 3X daily for 7-10
    > days, use ice and heat, stretch. He says: "You know, this running is
    > not a good long-term methond of maintaining cardiovascular fitness."
    > He reminded me that Jim Fixx died.
    >
    > Now if, at the beginning of our visit, he had told me what he thought
    > about running, I would have known I had come to the wrong place and
    > saved us both some time.
    >
    > I only write to say that I have much respect for the medical community,
    > but we cannot let that respect turn into blind obedience. He is a good
    > MD, but he, I believe, is just really, really uninformed about running,
    > running injuries, the cardio benefits of running and probably some
    > other things, too. And if I didn't already know a good deal about my
    > injury, I would not have known that, and would have probably quit
    > running--on the advice of my doctor!
    >
    > So what am I doing? Three ibuprophens 3X daily for 7-10 days, ice and
    > heat (maybe no heat) and I am off running until this feels better. I
    > really want to run another fall marathon.
    >
    > May you all avoid achillies hell.
    >
    > Brian Jones
    >
     
  8. [[ This message was both posted and mailed: see
    the "To," "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]]



    Brian,

    Some folklore on Calves and Achilles Tendonitis (2 previous posts)

    Dealing With And Preventing Injuries To Calf Muscles

    A look at ways to prevent injury to your calves. Thoughts about what it
    means to stretch properly. Ways to massage out the calves to release knots
    and remove excess strain and tension. A dialogue to become friends with your
    calves and not strain your relationship with them

    Dealing With And Preventing Injuries To Calf Muscles
    by Austin Gontang,
    September 27, 2000

    A Folkloric Core Dump On Calves: A Dialogue in Progress
    c. 2000 Austin "Ozzie" Gontang, Ph.D. & Denny Anderson

    Paul Doughty wrote to rec.running::

    > >I have tried to start back running several times over the past couple
    > >of years. I will begin by running 2 or 3 miles a day but within 3
    > >weeks I have always injured my calf (it has occurred to both my left
    > >and right calf). My calf will feel fine and then with one stride
    > >there will be a sharp pain right in the middle of my calf. Even if I
    > >stop immediately, it takes at least 3 weeks before the pain will go
    > >away.


    Sylvan Smyth answered:

    > Have you gone for any really deep massage? Maybe try Ozzie G's calf
    > plan: lots of rolling. I use a Stick(tm), because I got one as a
    > present, but a rolling pin works just as well. See if you can find
    > some knots in there, and just grind them out. Whatever it takes,
    > thumbs, knuckles, elbows...
    >
    >
    > Sylvan Smyth


    This got me thinking and I brought together my thoughts over the past 20+
    years as a beginning to sharing my folklore about calves and running and
    injuries to calves.

    As mentioned in an earlier post, your calves are being stretched more
    because there's lower heel lift in a running flat. The problem is that the
    calf to protect itself will contract...and then the fascia shortens around
    that portion of the shortened calf, and then the tension caused by the calf
    only being able to partially stretch to its full tonic state will begin to
    pull on the tendons. The tendons will take it for a while and then they'll
    start to get irritated.

    You'll do some stretching as recommended by many and you'll find that you
    now begin to strain the muscle fibers around either side of the knotted
    muscle encapsulated by the tightened fascia. The end result is that the
    stretching most, likely improper, ( you can't stretch a weight bearing
    muscle) will allow the overstretched muscle fibers to shorten to protect
    themselves...and they'll join the knotted area. And then people will tell
    you that it's because of the fact you've run in racing flats.

    1. The up against the wall stretch where you push one leg back to stretch
    the calf is improper if you can lift up your front foot. If you can lift up
    your front foot, the weight is on the back leg, and therefore the back leg
    is weight bearing...and the calf can't be stretched. Feels great but it's
    like opening your hand and trying to close it at the same time. Great
    isometric strain.

    If you're up against the wall keep the weight on the front foot so that you
    can lift up the back foot at any time. Stretch away from the back foot as if
    it's nailed to the ground and you're attempting to pull the foot out of the
    nailed down shoe When you do that, then you'd be stretching the calf.

    Doing the heels off the curb in my mind's eye is causing the same problem.
    Once you're taking the calves beyond the stretch reflex and if the fascia
    around the muscle won't let go, you end up straining good muscle fiber and
    tendon.

    Therefore here's a reason for using the railing to massage out the calves.
    Transverse Friction, that is rolling the calf from side to side over the
    belly of the muscle to gradually work the fascia and the knotted muscle
    (often referred to as adhesions [for the fascia] and scarred microtears of
    the muscle).

    Check out the picture: http://www.mindfulness.com/of1.asp for massaging the
    calf muscle. In that article you'll realize that most Achilles tendon
    problems are calf problems. The Achilles problem is the result the calf
    being too tight or knotted and unable to go through it's normal range of
    motion.

    Also work out the anterior shin on the bar. Face the bar and turn your body
    45 degrees. Put the closest shin upon the bar and start making a small
    circle with the foot as you slide down the shin. Often the shin may be
    overworked with the running in the racing flats. The reason for working out
    the shin is that if the shin can't relax, the calf has to work against a
    semi-contracted muscle which makes the calf strain all the more.

    With the idea that Denny Anderson has been passing on about the short quick
    steps to work on form, it may be that if you're overstriding the strain on
    the calves is due to the vertical lift and the immediate deceleration as the
    landing foot touches down. I'd use Denny's technique to practice. He
    mentions running on eggs, I think he meant egg shells so softly that you
    wouldn't break them or like Caine upon the rice paper in Kung Fu style so no
    tears occur...or an image I use is running on a extremely hot surface so
    that you are always focused on lifting up you foot as soon as it touches
    ball/heel. The heel lightly touches and is instantly lifted up because your
    center of gravity is in front of the foot as it lands under you

    Picture yourself going "ahh, ahh, ahh, ahh," lifting your feet off the
    ground the instant the heel of the ball/heel touches. Remember that the heel
    must be touching as it is the platform of the ball AND heel from which the
    rest of the body is catapulted forward.

    It would be the reflex you'd have when you touch your finger to an iron just
    before ironing to see if it's hot, and the reflex pulls your finger away so
    fast because while you thought it was just warming up, it was ironing hot.

    Following in the footsteps of Denny and others, running in racing flats can
    be helpful to improving your running style and becoming aware of how you
    land to become lighter on your feet...and therefore the rest of your lower
    legs and then the rest of your body.

    If you saw the Boston finish over the last few miles, you saw the way the
    upper torso leaned forward on one of the Kenyans, to the erect posture of
    the other Kenyan. Minimal vertical lift, the foot landing under the center
    of gravity, and keeping the body propelled forward in its fall at a 5 or
    sub-5 pace.

    If you learn to run lightly, you'll have a great time running fast.
    Flexibility will be your biggest aid in getting faster once you learn the
    rapid turnover of the 180 steps/minute.

    Remember when the foot touches the ground it should not stop the body but is
    like the pushing foot of a skateboarder as he or she maintains a steady
    speed or accelerates. Or in crew, if you watch the coxswain, his or her body
    glides forward when the rowers are maintaining the constant speed or
    accelerating. If you see the coxswain jerking back and forth you know that
    every time the oars are put in the water they're slowing the boat and then
    powering it ahead. You also know that the crew are lacking somewhere in
    their form and style.

    Another picture is you spinning a bicycle tire. Spin it with your hand. If
    your hand is slightly slower than the spin of the tire, you slow it down and
    most likely will get a burn on your fingers. That's where a lot of blisters
    on feet come from as people get tired in the marathon.

    Anyway I hope the pictures are a little helpful to get your calves back into
    shape. Remember if your calves are having to push your body forward then
    you've most likely stopped yourself from being constant in your running
    speed.

    Let us know what you experience.

    Oh, run slowly up a hill with the quick steps so that your back foot or
    pushing off foot doesn't weight the calf. Once you can do that, you've
    absorbed the other words. Now you have the feeling and the experience. Your
    calf is being used to bring the lower leg off the ground quicker to get it
    through the cycle faster as the knee goes back and then come up and forward
    with the lower leg bent back at greater than a 90 degree.

    So from the front, when the leg is coming forward, it looks like the runner
    for a short moment has only a knee stump. As the knee comes forward and
    lifts, you see the lower leg and then it goes down so that in the majority
    of great runners you don't see the heel of the shoe.

    Now the above is a core dump. I'll have to go back and see what I said. I'm
    interested in finding out where I'm wrong or am explaining it incorrectly.
    Help me clean up my word pictures.

    Again, it's folklore. If it works for you, use it. If not, find someone who
    makes better sense and whose ideas work for you and use them. Or create your
    own images that work great for you, and please share them with me and others
    of rec.running so we can educate ourselves better.



    Article 2:


    Knowing About & Caring for Your Friend, The Achilles Tendon

    The irritation of the Achilles Tendon is a symptom that something else is
    letting go. More often than not, it's the calf muscle that needs some
    loving attention.


    Knowing About & Caring for Your Friend, The Achilles Tendon
    c.2000 Austin "Ozzie" Gontang, Ph.D.


    Asensenig wrote:

    I'm training for the Country Music Marathon in Nashville on April 29th
    and have developed a case of "mild" achilles tendonitis in my right leg.
    The pain is a dull ache right behind the ankle/just above the heel. My
    training for the marathon has been on schedule with long runs every
    other weeked, (the last one 20 miles) one interval session or tempo run
    per week, etc. (I'm a 47 year old male, 6 feet, 200lbs, wear Gel Kayano's
    with orthotics. This is my fifth marathon. I average about 35 miles a week
    and stretch before and after each run.)
    >

    My questions is, how can I nurse this achilles tendon along for the next six
    weeks and still do what is necessary for the race? Any help, whether from
    personal experience with a similar problem or knowledge of this type of
    injury would be greatly appreciated. Thanks is advance for your response.


    Asensenig,

    I'd look to the calves be it soleus or the gastrocs to find the trigger
    point(s) where the calf is holding and causing the semi-contraction of the
    calf so that the part of the calf that can't let go transmits the tension to
    the Achilles.

    The other thing I'd look to, is to see, if the shins on the right leg are
    tight which would mean that the right calf has to work against a
    semi-contracted antagonist muscle. So even if you loosen up the right calf
    the right shin is still causing the problem for the right calf.

    Then again since as you and I have talked about off and on, the tightness in
    the left quad or hamstring might be affecting the planting of the right foot
    which results in the calf problem being a result of the left leg...or
    tightness in the right illiopsoas.

    I went through the same diagnosis with my left calf early in '99. Ended up
    it was the fact that I was carrying an overweight rip stop nylon briefcase
    in my left hand. The excess weight tightened up my left shoulder. I also
    realized that when I was sitting at the computer, the chair I used which has
    arms, I would lean on my left elbow. The left elbow callous was the first
    dead giveaway. Looking in the mirror when going for my monthly body work
    session showed the lean to the left of my whole upper body.

    Some further thoughts:

    1. Is the soleus more slow than fast twitch? In my mind slow twitch muscles
    as mentioned are stabilizer or postural muscles. My reason for thinking that
    soleus is more fast twitch???

    2.I want the soleus to be strong and elongated. The problem often is that it
    is strong and semicontracted because of a portion of it bundled/adhesioned
    (i.e. the fascia around a section is holding and not allowing that portion
    of the soleus to go through its range of motion. So when you stretch the
    soleus, you stretch the portion that can stretch and not the portion bundled
    up with the adhering fascia...causing the good muscle fibers to overstretch
    and gradually join the bundle that can only partially let go.

    3. Remember the Achilles is tendon. Tendon is white and grisly which means
    there is minimal blood flow to that area. One reason tendonitis
    (inflammation of the tendon) doesn't heal quickly...lack of adequate blood
    flow...as one sees in red oxygen enriched muscle tissue.

    4. Yes on the massage of the soleus once the trauma has subsided

    5. One reason for icing muscles is that the cold constricts the vessels and
    then once the cold is stopped rich oxygenated blood flows back in to flush
    the area with its healing nutrients.

    6. I have some question in my mind about strengthening the calves...if it
    means that they are strong but shortened.

    7. There's always the question in my mind about doing the heels off the step
    so that the calves are put under a extreme strain. If the knot in the muscle
    doesn't get stretched the tension is passed along the healthy muscle fiber
    and then onto the minimally blood fed tendons.

    8. Also there is what is called the kinetic chain concerning the movements
    we make as various muscles fire in a certain pattern. Putting the calf under
    strain by the heels off the step, the slant boards, etc. might cause more
    problems then they solve, if the exerciser is doing the exercise and not
    thinking about the way the muscles fire in sequence to create movement.

    9. It's not what you know that gets you in trouble. It's what you know that
    just ain't so. If you're not thinking nor paying attention to your thinking
    body which knows how to move when you don't think about it, then you are
    creating your own injuries and blaming it on something else.

    And finally a web site talking about: It's the Calves Not the Achilles:

    Check out http://mindfulness/of1.asp

    You'll see how I use a railing to do the rolling from side to side all the
    way up and down the calf. Physical Therapists call it Transverse
    Friction...i.e. rubbing across the muscles in the area where it is knotted.

    Remember the inflammation of the Achilles tendons is often caused by the
    calves not letting go. That's why I would have some reservations about the
    calf raises. Calf raises would only shorten the calf muscles even more. We
    want elongated and strong, not shortened and strong calf muscles.

    Also tightness in the shins can also cause the calves to tighten
    unnecessarily. The front shin muscles should be relaxing maximally when the
    calf is contracting. . If the shin muscles can relax fully the calves have
    to work against muscles that cannot fully relax. When the shins are tight
    the calves have to work against a semi-contracted muscle.



    In health and on the run,
    Ozzie Gontang
    Director, San Diego Marathon Clinic, est. 1975
    Maintainer - rec.running FAQ
    http://www.faqs.org/faqs/running-faq/
    Mindful Running:
    http://www.mindfulness.com/mr.asp
     
  9. Oz, Joshua, Don, and even Ted [not so much Twit]: Hey, thanks, all. I
    really appreciate the help.

    Brian Jones
     
  10. "I think he
    Lives in Lake Woe
    Be
    Gone."
    ~ Moi
     
  11. "Oz, Joshua, Don, and even
    Ted [not so much Twit]: Hey, thanks, all.
    I
    really appreciate the help."
    ~ Brian Jones

    [Hey!]
    How come?

    ..|***|........................................~(@:> *
     
  12. Another mouth breather who thinks he knows everything. OK, ignore the
    doctor, but then do it across the board. Don't call when you're having a
    heart attack, Don't call when you gash your finger washing a glass.
    Don't call when you feel a lump in your sack.
     
  13. "Another mouth breather
    who thinks he knows everything.
    OK, ignore the doctor, but then do it across the board.
    Don't call when you're having a
    heart attack, Don't call when you gash your finger
    washing a glass.
    Don't call when you feel a lump
    in your sack."
    ~ High Con

    O, but I called, Ms.
    Con!
     
  14. "O, know ~ Call
    The connoisseur, or at least, in any case,
    You must
    Pour us all a goblet, a prize reserve,
    Of Courvoisier!"
    ~ Moi

    "Were he still alive, Dr.
    Bohm would stand up and applaud you. But since
    He
    Isn't, I suppose he
    Won't."
    ~ Pablo

    "O, your implication,
    What? Please be
    More explicit!
    And know ~ You're welcome to visit!"
    ~ Moi

    "Anger, yes,
    Amounts to gold, if alchemized, if soldered links
    String a serpentine chain, a
    Necklace, a Flortentine flower, a gift to earth.
    But O, yes,
    Anguished anger hurts."
    ~ Moi
     
  15. Daniel

    Daniel Guest

    On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 20:06:17 +0000 (UTC), "pmb" <[email protected]> wrote
    in part:

    >
    >"Ozzie Gontang" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >news:120220050815574382%[email protected]
    >> . . .
    >> If you saw the Boston finish over the last few miles, you saw the way the
    >> upper torso leaned forward on one of the Kenyans, to the erect posture of
    >> the other Kenyan. Minimal vertical lift, the foot landing under the center
    >> of gravity, and keeping the body propelled forward in its fall at a 5 or
    >> sub-5 pace.

    >
    >The foot has to land *forward* of the centre of gravity. A small
    >deceleration is the price you pay for having the time to flex the leg in
    >preparation for the drive-off. The leg "gives" on impact, and as it bends it
    >builds up tension, which is then available for forward propulsion when the
    >body passes over the foot. Think of it as compressing a spring in front of
    >the body and then releasing it at the back. If you attempt to land directly
    >below your centre of gravity, you have to land with an already-bent leg.
    >There is no compression, because the leg doesn't have the time to build up
    >the necessary tension. And the sudden burden on weight-bearing muscles,
    >which is an inevitable consequence of landing on a bent leg, can lead to
    >calf problems, as has been noted by many who have adopted the so-called Pose
    >method of running.
    > . . .


    Thanks, PatB, for your thoughtful post. I have a question about foot
    landing "in front of" vs. "under" the runner's center of gravity.

    It is not clear to me that the foot/leg bears weight from the instant the
    foot touches the ground. If the foot "touches down" in front of the center
    of gravity, might there be no bearing of *weight* on that foot until it is
    under the center of gravity?

    If the rate of the runner's travel is six minutes per mile, and the foot
    "touches down" six inches in front of the center of gravity, it only takes
    less than four hundredths of a second for the center of gravity to "catch
    up" to the foot. Is there really going to be weight bearing, much less
    deceleration, in 0.0341 seconds?

    I have to try to remember that no matter what diagrams I draw of the runner
    at any instant of the stride, the picture is a fiction -- the *instant*, as
    a static picture, doesn't exist in the continuous dynamic of the real
    runner. When I watch a race, the foot of the elite runner *seems* to be
    way out in front. If I can watch the same race in slow motion, it appears
    (from the look of the calf muscles, for instance) the foot does not bear
    the *weight* of the runner until it is under the runner's center of gravity
    (or, until the c.g. has caught up with the foot).

    --
    Daniel
    [email protected]
     
  16. [email protected] wrote:
    > I have been bothered by achillies pain for almost a year.
    >
    > I have read more than anybody would ever want to know about this
    > injury, and have learned that some (see Noakes et. al) are now saying
    > that it isn't tendonitis per say, but really tedonosis, a

    degenerative
    > (but often reversible) condition of the tendon.
    >
    > I have done heat and ice. I have done ice alone. I have done calf
    > strengtheing exercises til the cows came home. I have stretched, and

    I
    > have refrained from stretching.
    >
    > May you all avoid achillies hell.
    >
    > Brian Jones


    Brian:
    I think that the Tim Noakes book is great, but it does not discuss all
    the possible causes of Achilles tendon injury. Like you, I had a lot
    of trouble with my Achilles tendons, so did a ton of research:
    articles, books, web. If you haven't seen it already, I recommend
    checking the causes of Achilles injury page of www.AchillesTendon.com
    (http://www.achillestendon.com/CausesofInjury.html). It includes a few
    things not covered by Noakes. Figuring out the real cause is often
    harder than figuring the treatment. It helped me, it might help you.
    Good luck,
    Murph
     
  17. [email protected] wrote:
    >>

    > Brian:
    > I think that the Tim Noakes book is great, but it does not discuss

    all
    > the possible causes of Achilles tendon injury. Like you, I had a lot
    > of trouble with my Achilles tendons, so did a ton of research:
    > articles, books, web. If you haven't seen it already, I recommend
    > checking the causes of Achilles injury page of www.AchillesTendon.com
    > (http://www.achillestendon.com/CausesofInjury.html). It includes a

    few
    > things not covered by Noakes. Figuring out the real cause is often
    > harder than figuring the treatment. It helped me, it might help you.
    > Good luck,
    > Murph



    Thank for the link, Murph. So did you recover, and can you run? Is
    there hope for me even though I have had this condition for a year?
    How long did your recover take? Were there relapses? Do you still
    have to be careful? What is your current running situation? If I
    don't start running again soon (one month as of 2-20) I will be as big
    as a barn.

    Brian Jones
     
  18. bikeme

    bikeme Guest

    <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    :
    : [email protected] wrote:
    : >>
    : > Brian:
    : > I think that the Tim Noakes book is great, but it does not discuss
    : all
    : > the possible causes of Achilles tendon injury. Like you, I had a lot
    : > of trouble with my Achilles tendons, so did a ton of research:
    : > articles, books, web. If you haven't seen it already, I recommend
    : > checking the causes of Achilles injury page of www.AchillesTendon.com
    : > (http://www.achillestendon.com/CausesofInjury.html). It includes a
    : few
    : > things not covered by Noakes. Figuring out the real cause is often
    : > harder than figuring the treatment. It helped me, it might help you.
    : > Good luck,
    : > Murph
    :
    :
    : Thank for the link, Murph. So did you recover, and can you run? Is
    : there hope for me even though I have had this condition for a year?
    : How long did your recover take? Were there relapses? Do you still
    : have to be careful? What is your current running situation? If I
    : don't start running again soon (one month as of 2-20) I will be as big
    : as a barn.
    :
    : Brian Jones
    :
    I'm still struggling after a couple of years. Mine began with overly
    cushioned shoes (Addidas Supernova) and treadmill running. I tried laying
    off, but it hasn't helped. So I continue to run, and strengthen my calves.
    It got better for a while, till I moved heavy furniture 3 times in the space
    of a couple of weeks (into my house, my parents into my old house and a
    friend who was moving). I was in pain for quite a while, got better, then
    began marathon training and also handled heavy furniture one again and that
    was enough for my current bout of AT pain. I ice and gently stretch, but
    I've decided not to stop running at this point.

    BTW- extra weight can cause AT and plantar fasciitis problems. So~ back
    away from the ice cream and no one gets hurt! :)

    Best of Luck
    Brian
     
  19. Dot

    Dot Guest

    pmb wrote:
    > <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >
    >>Recent years I have shortened my stride and have become thereby a more
    >>efficient runner(though I am the one with the bad achillies heel!).

    >
    >
    > I'd be more interested to know whether you've become a *faster* runner. I'm
    > doubtful about this shorter-means-more-efficient theory. Whose theory is it,
    > and what is the logic behind it?


    Just adding my perceptions to the pot. A general concept (really more of
    a symptom) behind it is that shorter strides usually involve quicker
    foot motion and less vertical time, resulting in "gentler" (relatively
    speaking) footfall. Also usually involves more of a mid- to fore-foot
    landing. Not sure where it originated, but many (not all) people here
    support the idea. It's helped many people here when they were starting.
    (also injured a few)

    I changed my stride almost 4 yrs ago when I was first starting
    "structured" (loosely used) running, and that's helped immensely,
    although I'm still very low volume. The shorter stride works better in
    snow, ice, steep hills, trails, etc. and provides a lot more stability.
    Shorter strides are more nimble for negotiating twisty, single-track trails.

    Admittedly, I haven't paid that much attention to whether my feet are
    directly under my cog or slightly ahead.
    >
    >
    >>But I know that some advocates of Pose running and Oz as well, seem to
    >>want to argue that you really get something for nothing in this method.
    >> It always seems to me that some folks do not want to admit the physics
    >>of the situation.

    >
    >
    > Yes, the inventor of this Pose technique talks about using gravity to propel
    > yourself horizontally. It's the modern equivalent of the 18th century
    > "perpetual-motion" machine. Another free lunch.


    FWIW, if I lean forward at ankles, I do go faster, but requires more energy.
    >
    >
    >
    > Good idea. I haven't been on this ng long enough to judge properly but there
    > doesn't seem to be much interest here in running technique or in
    > biomechanics generally.


    Actually, it's one of several topics that comes up periodically. Yep, it
    hasn't come up recently so I guess it's time for it again, esp. with
    some new perspectives ;)

    I'm interested in biomechanics because I've had some foot / ankle issues
    that my PT diagnosed and think I've got largely straightened out. Hill
    running form (like for 10-30% slopes both up and down) is also really
    interesting.

    Dot

    --
    "You try to slow down and enjoy it. You try to look at the scenery. But
    your brain can kind of go blank. All you want to do is tell your feet to
    keep working."
    -Cedar Petrosius, women's winner 2004 Matanuska Peak Challenge (14mi,
    9000ft up and down)
     
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