My experince with drugs and blood doping

[txags92]

What has he really told us about "elite level racing" besides the fact that even as a doper he couldn't get a contract to do it? If this is part of the dopers 12 step program to admit his problem here, thats fine, but I really don't know what it says about Lance Armstrong of "elite level racing" as a whole...

 

[memphiscyclist]

Armstong has good skills and is talented for sure.

Armstrong has been caught ....he had a corticostroid in his body bro......and you and many others bought the coverup story. Riders do not use corticosteroid based creams because as Flyer said it thins the skin, we all know that, and "they" know exactly what is in every single "medicine" bro....do you really think they missed reading that a CORTICOSTEROID! was in a product Lance was using!!!




Dr. Ferarri was/is a master at "beating the tests" bro. Riders go to him for doping advice plain and simple bro....that ALL they go to him for...not a damn thing else.

You are a young man I think......Armstrong has no training secrets nor does his coach Carmichael. No new scientific training or wind tunnel tesing, bike positioning, pedal stroke etc etc etc advantages at all. All has been done before...nothing new. As far as REAL training goes all exercise physiologists have done in the last 25 years is to CONFIRM what was already know and done years ago. In fact the guy Carmichael has copied is Cyrille Guimard, the coach of Benard Hinualt, Lemond, fignon etc....he did all this stuff 25 years ago at least. Trianing in cycling has also been the same for at least 25 years...... periodization, block training etc etc nothing new under the sun here.

10 pounds does make a difference in the mountains, of course it does,but it doesn't transform you from a poor tour rider to the best......but Armstrong's camp has convinced the public and riders that have no high level experience that this is the main reason he came back from cancer to win the tour. What a joke that it.
Bro Armstrongs sustainable power went from the low 400's at a time when he should have had PEAK power or very close to it , age 25, to about 500 watts in two years and after being VERY weak with cancer for a long time....that's the reason he won the tours.....HUGE sustainable power increases! What happens after age 25 to make a rider great is not so much physiological bro, although your lactate threshold will climb.....it's "paying your dues" on a team, and experience.



How do you know your brother-in-law hasn't doped...really? Just because he said so or because he appears to be clean....truth of the mater is you don't know.
I know Armstrong has doped because he has been CAUGHT! Corticosteroid work very well bro.

Are you kidding me?? Cortisteroid, that's all you could come up with? That finding never developed into a charge and therefore his record is still clean. As far as the UCI is concerned, he has a spotless record. I choose to believe that a person is innocent until proven guilty. I'm not one to attack someone else based upon unproven and preemptive accusations. That would be no different than Bush and his attack on Iraq. You probably voted for him too. And I never said Carmichael has training secrets, I said Armstrong was lucky enough to come across the perfect training program to contour his own personal strengths. You are right, many of these aspects of racing have been around and tested for years, and are common knowledge...but none of them have gone through the fine-tuning that Armstrong has put them through, and that's what separates him from the crowd.
As for who I am, don't presume to know how old I am or what I am about either. I have been racing for years, I ride with Cat 1 racers every week, and I am related to two pros. I know these guys very well. They are family men and women. They have children, and full time jobs, and they are dedicated to that aspect of their lives. Cycling to them comes in a very close second, but second nonetheless. They have high moral standards and excellent work ethics. These are the things that are important to them, and therefore doping is not even in the equation. Achieveing something on the bike without drugs and on their own is what is most important as it mirrors the more important aspects of their lives. And despite not doping, they still have achieved amazing wins. They also have gone through terrible losses, and know how to lose with dignity. So your other accusation that top Cat 1 riders dope (although I am sure many do) is simply unfounded, and I might add that you should be ashamed of yourself for ever doping in the first place. That simply goes to show a lack of character on your part, and detracts from any credibility you think you have when it comes to making such accusations about Armstrong, or others you know nothing about.

 

[bobke]

NO I do not believe Armstrong woud be beating everyone.....if everyone was clean. Before his cancer he was a fairly good classics rider but a terrible tour rider.
He was basically a quarter horse...then all of a sudden he is a throughbred....what the hell.

Then he comes back from cancer and something has REALLY CHANGED.....now he is killing everyone in the tour. Ya he lost weight, but only about 10 pounds for the start of the tour(168 down to 158). This is not going to make the huge difference.
So we see him going from getting killed in tours to killing everyone and doing so almost over night.

Now ALL the great tour winners except him did well in the tours, even in their first attempts...but not Armstrong.

From the age of 20 to 26 Armstrong was not even considered a minor threat in tours. What the hell happened...did he all of a sudden start training better??>>>NOT....oh then it must be the weight loss>>>NOT. It was his sustainable power output that changed and all of a sudden it was through the roof.



As a side here is a thought....

I would bet my house that Armstrong is allowed to take testosterone injections because now he has only one testes(after cancer) and the one that is there might not be that great...so he can tweek his testosterone level to the high normal range, which very few men actually have(1000ng/dl)....most men have about half that.

You just lost your house.
This has been said over and over again.
Men who have lost one testis from cancer, trauma or whatever do NOT need or receive testosterone shots. Their other testis makes plenty to compensate.

Lance's cancer doctors have been asked this over and over: he does not receive any medication whatsoever, including testosterone. They were asked this by the French media in 1999 and because of the doubts Lance gave his doctors permission to discuss the details of his medical treatment. I don't think these internationally renowned doctors have much vested interest in lying for Lance, their careers and livelihoods depend on being honest.

In addition, Lance has repeatedly stated that his medical forms submitted to the UCI and to race officials have no medication on them, and that his is one of the few that doesnt have prescription medication on them--like Beloki and Galdeano taking inhaled medication for asthma.

 

[TiMan]

What has he really told us about "elite level racing" besides the fact that even as a doper he couldn't get a contract to do it? If this is part of the dopers 12 step program to admit his problem here, thats fine, but I really don't know what it says about Lance Armstrong of "elite level racing" as a whole...

It says that a person can increase they sustainable powr output by over 20% in 4 months with the epo...and recover very quickly with testosterone.

 

[TiMan]

Are you kidding me?? Cortisteroid, that's all you could come up with? That finding never developed into a charge and therefore his record is still clean. As far as the UCI is concerned, he has a spotless record. I choose to believe that a person is innocent until proven guilty. I'm not one to attack someone else based upon unproven and preemptive accusations. That would be no different than Bush and his attack on Iraq. You probably voted for him too. And I never said Carmichael has training secrets, I said Armstrong was lucky enough to come across the perfect training program to contour his own personal strengths. You are right, many of these aspects of racing have been around and tested for years, and are common knowledge...but none of them have gone through the fine-tuning that Armstrong has put them through, and that's what separates him from the crowd.
As for who I am, don't presume to know how old I am or what I am about either. I have been racing for years, I ride with Cat 1 racers every week, and I am related to two pros. I know these guys very well. They are family men and women. They have children, and full time jobs, and they are dedicated to that aspect of their lives. Cycling to them comes in a very close second, but second nonetheless. They have high moral standards and excellent work ethics. These are the things that are important to them, and therefore doping is not even in the equation. Achieveing something on the bike without drugs and on their own is what is most important as it mirrors the more important aspects of their lives. And despite not doping, they still have achieved amazing wins. They also have gone through terrible losses, and know how to lose with dignity. So your other accusation that top Cat 1 riders dope (although I am sure many do) is simply unfounded, and I might add that you should be ashamed of yourself for ever doping in the first place. That simply goes to show a lack of character on your part, and detracts from any credibility you think you have when it comes to making such accusations about Armstrong, or others you know nothing about.

Yes.....his excuse and quickly produced doc script for a cream worked and there was no charge. But as I said before.....nobody uses a cream with a corticosteroid in it because it thi ns the skin...that's commonly know. AND....the riders and their doctors know excatly what is in every product they use and they would never miss a seeing a corticosteroid.

 

[memphiscyclist]

Yes.....his excuse and quickly produced doc script for a cream worked and there was no charge. But as I said before.....nobody uses a cream with a corticosteroid in it because it thi ns the skin...that's commonly know. AND....the riders and their doctors know excatly what is in every product they use and they would never miss a seeing a corticosteroid.

Yeah, and aliens have landed on earth because I saw a strange light in the sky last night. You're grasping at straws man...grasping at straws. Nobody is perfect and I'm sure that somewhere in the history of pro cycling, a medication was accidentally overlooked by a team doctor or racer. You sound about as intelligent as Tom Cruise does when he denounces the entire psychiatric community as a bunch of quacks based on his knowledge of Scientology.

 

[TiMan]

.....interesting stuff.
Incidently, what made you decide to post here and at this time?

I have been around on the board for along time but never posted much.

I am talking about my past experience now because I am tired of hearing all those bro's out there that think the sport is clean at a high level.

The truth is the higher the level the more the doping.

I knew I would get some flames a I mentioned "Lance" but I just had to throw in some stuff on him because there are so many that actually believe this guy.

As I mentioned you don't have to catch a guy red handed to know that he is on something. When someone all of a sudden starts to kick butt when in the near past it was different then you know somethings up.

Elite riders know that you are 98% "there" by the age of 25....the rest comes form experience and a little boost in lactate threshold up to about age 30 tops.

Lance was caught with a corticosteroid in his system and that is proof BUT people bought the cover-up so they disregard that.....Lance visited Ferarri at least 10 times and sometimes for days and the only thing he ever did for the sport was to tell riders how to dope and especially how to beat the "tests"....this is a HUGE smoking gun because that's ALL ferarri did....NOT A DAMN THING ELSE.

Lemond knew that all Ferarri did was advise on doping and how to beat tests.....and I am glad he had the balls to speak up when he did.

But you know what... I think I am done on this post now. I don't want to beat my head against the wall talking with some on this forum that are kids(not you) and don't know a damn thing about what racing at Cat 1 is like in the USA or europe. I lived it, I experienced it for 13 LONG YEARS. I saw guys use drugs....I talked with MANY as well....we exchanged info.....I saw careers TAKE OFF and drug users get pro contracts and I saw guys refuse to take drugs and never "make it". But I am glad that I did see guys turn pro that I think never used drugs.

Sadly the sport that I love it not all about genetics and hard work....it's about much more....you have to throw in politcis, knowing the right people, and plenty of drugs into the equation. Yes there are some that do fairly well without drugs but NONE of the very best riders on the four teams that I raced on over 13 years were clean. I knew them all very well. I became a "very best" with the drugs but you know what, I didn't feel like "a very best" ....I felt like a cheater. I am glad I stopped when I did.

As a side.....Notice that the euro's don't flame me...it's because they know more than us Americans due to their exposure.

 

[memphiscyclist]

I have been around on the board for along time but never posted much.

I am talking about my past experience now because I am tired of hearing all those bro's out there that think the sport is clean at a high level.

The truth is the higher the level the more the doping.

I knew I would get some flames a I mentioned "Lance" but I just had to throw in some stuff on him because there are so many that actually believe this guy.

As I mentioned you don't have to catch a guy red handed to know that he is on something. When someone all of a sudden starts to kick butt when in the near past it was different then you know somethings up.

Elite riders know that you are 98% "there" by the age of 25....the rest comes form experience and a little boost in lactate threshold up to about age 30 tops.

Lance was caught with a corticosteroid in his system and that is proof BUT people bought the cover-up so they disregard that.....Lance visited Ferarri at least 10 times and sometimes for days and the only thing he ever did for the sport was to tell riders how to dope and especially how to beat the "tests"....this is a HUGE smoking gun because that's ALL ferarri did....NOT A DAMN THING ELSE.

Lemond knew that all Ferarri did was advise on doping and how to beat tests.....and I am glad he had the balls to speak up when he did.

But you know what... I think I am done on this post now. I don't want to beat my head against the wall talking with some on this forum that are kids(not you) and don't know a damn thing about what racing at Cat 1 is like in the USA or europe. I lived it, I experienced it for 13 LONG YEARS. I saw guys use drugs....I talked with MANY as well....we exchanged info.....I saw careers TAKE OFF and drug users get pro contracts and I saw guys refuse to take drugs and never "make it". But I am glad that I did see guys turn pro that I think never used drugs.

Sadly the sport that I love it not all about genetics and hard work....it's about much more....you have to throw in politcis, knowing the right people, and plenty of drugs into the equation. Yes there are some that do fairly well without drugs but NONE of the very best riders on the four teams that I raced on over 13 years were clean. I knew them all very well. I became a "very best" with the drugs but you know what, I didn't feel like "a very best" ....I felt like a cheater. I am glad I stopped when I did.

As a side.....Notice that the euro's don't flame me...it's because they know more than us Americans due to their exposure.

Armstrong's performance was already among the gods of triathletes when he was a young teenager. I suppose he was doping then too, right? Bottom line...if someone is a proven doper, you have a right to bash them. If someone is not a proven doper, don't claim to "know" that they are. And certainly don't bash an unproven doper who has raised millions of dollars for cancer through the dope infested sport of cycling itself.

 

[Alex B]

My intent was to state a facet of the doping situation that is often overlooked when doping is discussed. My intent was to bring the criminal side of doping into the discussion. I did not intend to attack Timan's credibility or use the "appeal to authority" argument. Please explain the logic that you used to arrive at the conclusion that I used the "appeal to authority" argument.

I never stated that a criminal does not have credibility or lacks the ability to tell the truth. I said that a doper is a criminal.

I do agree that Timan's candor is refreshing.

Alex

yes dopers are criminals, but in this case Alex B, you are calling them criminals to take away from TiMan's credibility. Just because someone is a criminal does not mean that it is impossible and or very difficlut for them to tell the truth. You are simply using an "appeal to authority" argument. IN other words, you believe that since criminals have no authority, then they can not be credible. I'm sorry, but if Scott Peterson said 2+2 equals 4, i would believe him, even tho he is a criminal.

i for one, think that we should applude TiMan for his candidness and for giving us his insights into elite level racing.

 

[TiMan]

Armstrong's performance was already among the gods of triathletes when he was a young teenager. I suppose he was doping then too, right? Bottom line...if someone is a proven doper, you have a right to bash them. If someone is not a proven doper, don't claim to "know" that they are. And certainly don't bash an unproven doper who has raised millions of dollars for cancer through the dope infested sport of cycling itself.

Armstrong is a doper as he had a corticosteroid in his system...he has been caught!!!...but most believe his cover up. Don't you get it bro......riders don't just "miss" seeing a corticosteroid in a medicine...it does not happen. The team doc goes over everything with a "fine tooth comb". And besides no rider in his right mind would ever use a cream with a corticosteroid because, as I said, it thins the skin and this all Cat 2 riders and above know.

Armstrong has great genetics this is true but you don't turn a quarter horse into a throughbred without a lot of tinkering.......he was a decent classics rider that did poorly in grand tours(quarter horse)...then he comes out of nowhere to not only do well in grand tours but to KILL everyone(thoroughbred)...and all this starts out of the blue at age 27......NOT!

 

[ives]

Again, thank you for your candor, TIMan.

I understand that you may want to bow out of this discussion since it has (inevitably) turned into a flame match.

However, if you feel able, perhaps you could elucidate how the drugs actually made you feel on this bike? Was it like suddenly having a new engine ,like going from a Ford to a Ferrari, or was it more subtle than that. Or were the effects more to do with the ability to recover from high work loads, thus enabling one to effectively train harder and longer?

I remember Kimmage stating that he just didn't feel the pedals when he doped, that it was almost effortless. I'm not sure what he was taking, maybe some amphetamine rather than EPO, which wasn't widely available in the 80's. perhaps you can elaborate?

 

[TiMan]

Again, thank you for your candor, TIMan.

I understand that you may want to bow out of this discussion since it has (inevitably) turned into a flame match.

However, if you feel able, perhaps you could elucidate how the drugs actually made you feel on this bike? Was it like suddenly having a new engine ,like going from a Ford to a Ferrari, or was it more subtle than that. Or were the effects more to do with the ability to recover from high work loads, thus enabling one to effectively train harder and longer?

I remember Kimmage stating that he just didn't feel the pedals when he doped, that it was almost effortless. I'm not sure what he was taking, maybe some amphetamine rather than EPO, which wasn't widely available in the 80's. perhaps you can elaborate?

I felt very strong very quickly. Now in training, improvement" very quickly" mean in a matter of weeks.
In 12 weeks my sustainable power went fro 350 to 420 and then peaked at 440 after 4 months. I FELT LIKE SUPERMAN frankly....and funy thing is I had a hard time getting that terrible "burning" feeling that we all experience once past threshold and into the anaerobic zone.
Without a doubt the epo was better than the testosterone but the testosterone did help me recover between very hard workouts very quickly. I think the epo helped too.


The testosterone allowed me to get to my lowest ever body fat percentage at about 3.5%...and I lost NO MUSCLE MASS in the process and in fact my legs got a little bigger.

My sex drive was through the roof from the high testosterone levels...poor wife he he he. The scary thing is that even average looking girls would look good

So yes one feels great on epo and testosterone....physically that is....but I felt bad psychologically. I felt like the cheater I was...even though I knew many others where doping.

The "last straw" for me was when I saw another very good rider inject himself in a hotel room that we shared. For some reason that scene hit me hard and I decided that if I didn't get a pro contract by the end of the season I would never juice again.....never got the contract and never juiced again....but my buddy that I saw inject did go on to become a pro, even though I was a better rider than him.

 

[txags92]

It says that a person can increase they sustainable powr output by over 20% in 4 months with the epo...and recover very quickly with testosterone.

No, your story told us that YOU did that. Your story about doping included nothing that told me that the elite riders all did it other than a baseless claim that you "know" they do. You also said others turned pro and did well without drugs. None of this is new. Flyer has told everybody here that "all the elite riders do it" ad nauseum, and the only thing different about your story here is that you admit to doing it and still being unable to get a contract to turn pro. Other than that, every statement you have made is simply another "I know LA dopes because everybody else does" line with no backup whatsoever. I would say that I appreciate your candor in admitting your own cheating, but I think your candor is misplaced. You aren't proving anything against LA by telling us your cheating story, and continuing the whole "everybody does it" line while also telling us that "some people went pro and did well without it" or "I cheated and couldn't get a contract" is totally contradictory and proves nothing about elite cycling or LA. Sorry if that offends you, as your story is quite interesting, but in the end tells us nothing new about the topics of elite racing or LA. It simply says you cheated and it didn't work out for you...

 

[Roadie_scum]

I felt very strong very quickly. Now in training, improvement" very quickly" mean in a matter of weeks.
In 12 weeks my sustainable power went fro 350 to 420 and then peaked at 440 after 4 months. I FELT LIKE SUPERMAN frankly....and funy thing is I had a hard time getting that terrible "burning" feeling that we all experience once past threshold and into the anaerobic zone.
Without a doubt the epo was better than the testosterone but the testosterone did help me recover between very hard workouts very quickly. I think the epo helped too.


The testosterone allowed me to get to my lowest ever body fat percentage at about 3.5%...and I lost NO MUSCLE MASS in the process and in fact my legs got a little bigger.

My sex drive was through the roof from the high testosterone levels...poor wife he he he. The scary thing is that even average looking girls would look good

So yes one feels great on epo and testosterone....physically that is....but I felt bad psychologically. I felt like the cheater I was...even though I knew many others where doping.

The "last straw" for me was when I saw another very good rider inject himself in a hotel room that we shared. For some reason that scene hit me hard and I decided that if I didn't get a pro contract by the end of the season I would never juice again.....never got the contract and never juiced again....but my buddy that I saw inject did go on to become a pro, even though I was a better rider than him.

When you say your sustainable power was 440W, how did you measure it and how long could you sustain that for? And what was your body mass? That is an absolute elite figure and it is beyond stunning that you didn't get a contract if you could put out that number for than 30-40 minutes.

 

[Ashley3]

Again, thank you for your candor, TIMan.

I understand that you may want to bow out of this discussion since it has (inevitably) turned into a flame match.

Yes, thanks for the candor and the insight. I've been reading this fourm for quite a while and this is one of the most interesting discussions I've come upon. There's been a bit of an edge to it, but given the passions involved it's been surprisingly civil.
It is a debate of Armstrong's place in history that will outlive us all. I wonder, however, if in time the drug question will fall by the wayside, much as it has with Eddie Merckx who, although being caught doping more than once, is generally acknowledged as the best rider in history?

 

[TiMan]

When you say your sustainable power was 440W, how did you measure it and how long could you sustain that for? And what was your body mass? That is an absolute elite figure and it is beyond stunning that you didn't get a contract if you could put out that number for than 30-40 minutes.

I could hold 440 for 45 minutes on a trainer with power meter . I was 5'8.5" tall and 145 pounds.
Ya that buddy of mine that I mentioned...that turned my stomach while injecting....was doing the same test right beside me and could only hold 420 watts and he weighed about the same as me....yet he did get a contract. But he was only 21 years old and I am sure that had a lot to do with it.

The better "continental pro's " can hold 440 plus wattage for an hour....Armstrong can hold over 500 for an hour.

I was 32 years of age so I think that's why I didn't get a contract...even though I was winning a lot of races. "They" are looking for 18-21 year olds much of the time or 25 years olds tops...for long term developement and building.

Lots of older guys have great(pro level) sustainable power output but you have to be in right place at the right time to get a pro contract....and part of this is impressing them as a young rider.

I remember Greg Lemond winning a very big race in Arizona(Bisbee tour) at age 16....boy did that make them sit up and take notice.

 

[Roadrash Dunc]

We all know cycling isnt clean.
We all know what EPO does.
Nothing youve posted sheds any light on pro racing whatsoever.

Youre obviously a guy with a chip on his shoulder about something so felt the need to get some attention going on here whilst slandering the highest profile bike racer.
You arent a cat1 pro and you havent taken EPO.

Regardless IF you did , it doesnt mean EVERYONE in pro cycling does.Thats just retarded logic , but then i guess im a moron for trying to logically talk to a retard.
Tell us your real name or **** off and do something constructive with yourself.

ps: if you really wanted people to belive what you said , you should have kept totally neutral about other riders.As soon as you name someone (in this case Lance - especially in this case) you lose all objectivity and it becomes clear youre just having a dig.

 

[Roadie_scum]

I could hold 440 for 45 minutes on a trainer with power meter . I was 5'8.5" tall and 145 pounds.
Ya that buddy of mine that I mentioned...that turned my stomach while injecting....was doing the same test right beside me and could only hold 420 watts and he weighed about the same as me....yet he did get a contract. But he was only 21 years old and I am sure that had a lot to do with it.

The better "continental pro's " can hold 440 plus wattage for an hour....Armstrong can hold over 500 for an hour.

I was 32 years of age so I think that's why I didn't get a contract...even though I was winning a lot of races. "They" are looking for 18-21 year olds much of the time or 25 years olds tops...for long term developement and building.

Lots of older guys have great(pro level) sustainable power output but you have to be in right place at the right time to get a pro contract....and part of this is impressing them as a young rider.

I remember Greg Lemond winning a very big race in Arizona(Bisbee tour) at age 16....boy did that make them sit up and take notice.

What was the power measuring device (computrainer, polar, SRM, powertap?) and when/how was it calibrated?

145 pounds is about 66kg so with 440 watts as a funtional threshold that yields 6.7W/kg. This is above world class on Andy Coggan's table of expected power over various durations for different level athletes. It is also higher than the 6.5W/kg Ric Stern reports as required for GC riders in the TdF, which has been described as the current ceiling for human performance ~1 hour.

I train with an (admittedly young) US pro who does 440 watts for his 3-4 minute efforts. He has finished reasonably well in NRC races, but no way is he riding those 440 watts for too much longer than that (maybe 6-8 minutes max I would guess). This meshes well with Ric Stern's suggestion that Cat 1's normally reach ~450W for MAP tests - the end of an MAP test normally represents a power that can be held for maybe 5 minutes.

Further, Nathan O'Neill reports being able to hold 430W for around 30-40 minutes when TTing well, and Mick Rogers ~450W for his TT world championship.

I'm interested in what you have to say, but I'd like some clarification as the numbers you are giving don't seem quite credible and I suspect your equipment was incorrectly calibrated (SRM's for example are particularly sensitive to temperature and humidity changes). I can happily believe 350W as your starting point though.

 

[Roadrash Dunc]

And now youre saying you have a power output of 6.7w/kgm for 45 minutes.About the same as Armstrong.

Please , quit while youre only a little bit behind.Pinocchio has nothing on you.
Your pants on fire?

 

[Roadie_scum]

We all know cycling isnt clean.
We all know what EPO does.
Nothing youve posted sheds any light on pro racing whatsoever.

Youre obviously a guy with a chip on his shoulder about something so felt the need to get some attention going on here whilst slandering the highest profile bike racer.
You arent a cat1 pro and you havent taken EPO.

Regardless IF you did , it doesnt mean EVERYONE in pro cycling does.Thats just retarded logic , but then i guess im a moron for trying to logically talk to a retard.
Tell us your real name or **** off and do something constructive with yourself.

ps: if you really wanted people to belive what you said , you should have kept totally neutral about other riders.As soon as you name someone (in this case Lance - especially in this case) you lose all objectivity and it becomes clear youre just having a dig.

I'm no fan of drugs in cycling and I agree it doesn't help to slander other riders, but man, keep a civil tongue in your head and let people hold their own opinions. It doesn't do you well to come out swearing and insulting people and then claim to have rationality on your side. I feel some interesting things are being said in this thread - if you don't, feel free to read a different one.