My Power Profile is Embarrassing

[swampy1970]

Why do you roadies even care about 5 sec power? Seriously, it has such LITTLE to do with road racing performance.

If you have trouble producing 800watts for 5 sec, and you aren't an 80lb 12 yr old girl, then you sure must have trouble climbing a flight of stairs briskly.

I'm talking like this because I believe all of you have the potential to vastly improve your neuromuscular power. Since you are endurance athletes to begin with, your neuromuscular power is going to be garbage. You have SOO much room for improvement.

Get out there, and hit the f'n pedals hard like you have never done before. No, don't just push it, I mean tear the f'n bike apart. I don't care if you have 10in arms and 18in thighs, doesn't matter. Sprinting is so mental, there is such a wide range of performance for what I can do, depending on how I feel and a lot of other factors. But if you don't give it 110% and go apesheet on the bike, of course your 5 sec will suck.
I see a lot of 'older' guys out there, and just by obversing them on the bike it's no wonder many of you have trouble with sprinting. Endurance cycling teaches you to be SLOW, not eXplosive.

Oh yeah, I forgot. Why do we even care about 5 sec power?

BTW, I bet Boardman could of gone over 1000w if he had the slightest interest in it, which he didn't. Why would he?

Having a handy 1000watt kick would have been really good when jumping on wheels at 35+mph and getting on in a few seconds rather than a drawn out 30+ seconds of anerobic death...

 

[john979]

Why do you roadies even care about 5 sec power? Seriously, it has such LITTLE to do with road racing performance.

If you have trouble producing 800watts for 5 sec, and you aren't an 80lb 12 yr old girl, then you sure must have trouble climbing a flight of stairs briskly.

I'm talking like this because I believe all of you have the potential to vastly improve your neuromuscular power. Since you are endurance athletes to begin with, your neuromuscular power is going to be garbage. You have SOO much room for improvement.

Get out there, and hit the f'n pedals hard like you have never done before. No, don't just push it, I mean tear the f'n bike apart. I don't care if you have 10in arms and 18in thighs, doesn't matter. Sprinting is so mental, there is such a wide range of performance for what I can do, depending on how I feel and a lot of other factors. But if you don't give it 110% and go apesheet on the bike, of course your 5 sec will suck.
I see a lot of 'older' guys out there, and just by obversing them on the bike it's no wonder many of you have trouble with sprinting. Endurance cycling teaches you to be SLOW, not eXplosive.

Oh yeah, I forgot. Why do we even care about 5 sec power?

BTW, I bet Boardman could of gone over 1000w if he had the slightest interest in it, which he didn't. Why would he?

Actually, I don't mind admitting I can't bound up stairs quickly. This is not my musculature and despite your recommendation, there is little evidence from both my own personal experience and that of others, focused training will substantially change my neuromuscular capability, or lack thereof.

 

[velomanct]

Actually, I don't mind admitting I can't bound up stairs quickly. This is not my musculature and despite your recommendation, there is little evidence from both my own personal experience and that of others, focused training will substantially change my neuromuscular capability, or lack thereof.

What's your vertical jump?

Mine is pathetic, about 14 inches (highest I got was 17 in when I specifically trained for it). Vertical jump is widely accepted as a gauge for explosive power. On my power profile, my 5 sec figure is way above all my others, yet I am an average road cyclist (a 1hr 40k TT if I'm lucky). I lift weights a bit too, and strength training is definitely not my thing either. I have that eternal 'skinny' look.

POINT IS: you CAN train your body to be explosive on the bike, even if it's not your natural strong suit. Well, maybe it's wrong to assume that based on my experience, who knows.

BTW, if your cardiovascular system ain't up to par, that 20w/kg kick ain't going to appear when you need it in a crit. That's what happens with me, in the final 300 meters, I am too anerobic to put out any kind of an explosive effort, and it has nothing to do with not having the ability. Typical final sprint watts are 60% (SIXTY percent!!) of what I can do when I'm fresh/aerobic.

 

[john979]

POINT IS: you CAN train your body to be explosive on the bike, even if it's not your natural strong suit. Well, maybe it's wrong to assume that based on my experience, who knows.

I would like to see historical data from someone with a classic right-upward power profile who with a concerted effort meaningfully (>20%) increased their 5 second power, say from 800 watts to over 1000 watts or 12 watts/kg to 15 watts/kg.

Don't say, show.

 

[velomanct]

I would like to see historical data from someone with a classic right-upward power profile who with a concerted effort meaningfully (>20%) increased their 5 second power, say from 800 watts to over 1000 watts or 12 watts/kg to 15 watts/kg.

Don't say, show.

All I have is my own data. I increased 5 sec power ~50%. But that was from age 17 to 20.

 

[Steve_B]

I would like to see historical data from someone with a classic right-upward power profile who with a concerted effort meaningfully (>20%) increased their 5 second power, say from 800 watts to over 1000 watts or 12 watts/kg to 15 watts/kg.

Don't say, show.

That would be me. Not 20% but ~15% in a month of training 2x/week.

Background on training and implemenation

Attachments: 5-sec profile going back 5 years. Note best was in 2004. Then I cut way back on sprint training for a few years then got interested again in August of 2007. See the second attachment for last year's progression. (That peak in June was a short uphill sprint with a lot of momentum at 33 mph - my best-case condition.) I don't know what would have happened had I kept it up into the autumn. I'm starting sprint training earlier this year so we'll see what happens this year.

Don't doubt yourself.

 

[Steve_B]

While I do not perform much true L7 training, I do a lot of 30-second interval training, yet I never seen any significant increase in my 30 second power.

There is some NM component to a 30-sec interval, my suggestion would be 10-15 sec all-out sprints to really do something about NM power.

 

[john979]

There is some NM component to a 30-sec interval, my suggestion would be 10-15 sec all-out sprints to really do something about NM power.

Thanks, but I have not professed any desire to increase my sprint power. And while I will not argue that doing so won't maximize what you have, I still maintain that those without significant Type II muscle fiber are at a distinct disadvantage regarding neuromuscular power.

From your data, I don't see any improvement. All I see is you matching your 2004 peak again. Dr. Coggan, another self-admitted neuromuscular "wimp," generously supplied 8 years of MMP data and never broke 1000 watts, even when specifically training for such a goal.

 

[john979]

All I have is my own data. I increased 5 sec power ~50%. But that was from age 17 to 20.

Apples to apples. My pinga increased 50% in those years and hasn't grown a bit since.

 

[velomanct]

I conclude that it is my belief that sprint ability on the bike is not directly correlated with natural neuromuscular ability. This is because sprinting on a bike requires a set pattern of muscle contractions, which lead to the need to train that exact movement.

In short, being powerful(or weak) in general doesn't mean you MUST be the same on the bike, in relation to other populations.

 

[john979]

I conclude that it is my belief that sprint ability on the bike is not directly correlated with natural neuromuscular ability. This is because sprinting on a bike requires a set pattern of muscle contractions, which lead to the need to train that exact movement.

In short, being powerful(or weak) in general doesn't mean you MUST be the same on the bike, in relation to other populations.

My conclusion is the exact opposite. Natural neuromuscular ability stems from specific genetic predispositions that can only be moderately trained. You observations regarding yourself are not valid since they come while your body was still developing.

Again, I challenge a fully developed adult with several years training and racing possessing a classic upward right power profile to provide data showing that with a concerted effort, neuromuscular power increased meaningfully.

Take for example myself. From 2004 until today, my peak 5-second power ranges from 760 to 830 watts. I would like to see is someone with a similar long history of low and flat peak 5-second who decided to train neuromuscular and saw a greater than 20% improvement. Even then, such a person would just break 1000 watts and would still be a neuromuscular wuss.

 

[Piotr]

My conclusion is the exact opposite. Natural neuromuscular ability stems from specific genetic predispositions that can only be moderately trained. You observations regarding yourself are not valid since they come while your body was still developing.

Again, I challenge a fully developed adult with several years training and racing possessing a classic upward right power profile to provide data showing that with a concerted effort, neuromuscular power increased meaningfully.

Take for example myself. From 2004 until today, my peak 5-second power ranges from 760 to 830 watts. I would like to see is someone with a similar long history of low and flat peak 5-second who decided to train neuromuscular and saw a greater than 20% improvement. Even then, such a person would just break 1000 watts and would still be a neuromuscular wuss.

I went from 870 W (5 sec) in session #1 to 989 W (5 sec) in session # 8 some 2 months later last year. As with all training I think there's a genetic component in how much one can attain, improve, handle, etc., so I'm not sure that I agree with either side. IOW, YMMV.

 

[john979]

I went from 870 W (5 sec) in session #1 to 989 W (5 sec) in session # 8 some 2 months later last year. As with all training I think there's a genetic component in how much one can attain, improve, handle, etc., so I'm not sure that I agree with either side. IOW, YMMV.

This is why we need to see data. Your improvement is 13.7%. Thanks.

 

[velomanct]

I still can't jump more that 14-17 inches. Everyone knows that a typical sprinter or explosive athlete has a vertical jump of double that height, and some of the best guys can jump over 3ft.

Sure, I am only one person, so validity is weak. I'm telling you though, I am NOT a naturally strong/explosive athlete, yet my 5 sec is in the 1800 range (185lbs). My ability on the bike is the DIRECT result of sprinting a LOT, and putting in 110% effort.

I would gladly ride with anyone interested in learning sprint training methods on the bike.


Remember this: Your body is only capable of what your mind allows. Think about it.

 

[Steve_B]

Thanks, but I have not professed any desire to increase my sprint power.

No, but you are all over this thread saying "it can't be done" without presenting any evidence that you have actually tried to improve it the more conventional way.

And while I will not argue that doing so won't maximize what you have, I still maintain that those without significant Type II muscle fiber are at a distinct disadvantage regarding neuromuscular power.

No argument.

From your data, I don't see any improvement. All I see is you matching your 2004 peak again. .

You asked for improvement so I gave it to you. You didn't say it had to be "beyond historical highs". I stated pretty clearly in my previous post that I linked to in this thread that I matched historical highs coming from a relative nadir. It's not like I was misleading you.

 

[john979]

My ability on the bike is the DIRECT result of sprinting a LOT, and putting in 110% effort.

To the ability that your genetic physiology enables you to...

Remember this: Your body is only capable of what your mind allows. Think about it.

To the ability that your genetic physiology enables you to...

You need to do some reseach regarding muscle myosin expression. Not all of us can be good at what we want to be, but we all can be good at what we are.

There is a growing trend away from "train your limiter" to "race your strength."

 

[velomanct]

To the ability that your genetic physiology enables you to...


To the ability that your genetic physiology enables you to...

You need to do some reseach regarding muscle myosin expression. Not all of us can be good at what we want to be, but we all can be good at what we are.

There is a growing trend away from "train your limiter" to "race your strength."

If you are such a slow-twitcher, why even bother thinking about sprinting? You would surely have tons more success in pure endurance events.

And yes, I believe specialization is increasing more so each year. It all depends on what your goals are. If you just want to casually race and be able to race average with the 4s, then working on limiters has its benefits. But if you want to really make a mark somewhere, you need to specialize in what you are naturally best at.

I sprint a lot because I like to. It gives me a thrill. I have neglected endurance work because it's boring to me and too painful for the return that it gives me.

I'm just trying to say that you shouldn't be so close minded. There is always improvement to be made in a weak area, assuming you haven't already throughly trained that ability yet. I like to defy odds, myself. It's fun to prove the 'world' wrong.

 

[john979]

If you are such a slow-twitcher, why even bother thinking about sprinting? You would surely have tons more success in pure endurance events.

And yes, I believe specialization is increasing more so each year. It all depends on what your goals are. If you just want to casually race and be able to race average with the 4s, then working on limiters has its benefits. But if you want to really make a mark somewhere, you need to specialize in what you are naturally best at.

I sprint a lot because I like to. It gives me a thrill. I have neglected endurance work because it's boring to me and too painful for the return that it gives me.

I'm just trying to say that you shouldn't be so close minded. There is always improvement to be made in a weak area, assuming you haven't already throughly trained that ability yet. I like to defy odds, myself. It's fun to prove the 'world' wrong.

I am not close minded and I never said I wanted to increase my sprint power, all I said is that if I did, it would not be by much. Below is quote from Dr. Coggan:

"Well I don't know about other people's power outputs, but I do know this: since turning 40 I've won 22% of the 60+ mass start races I've done (53% of all road races) w/o ever out-sprinting more than one person. "

Remember, Dr. C has never broken 1000 watts, even when training to do so...

I looking for data from people to prove me wrong. If that is not open-minded, I don't know what is...

 

[velomanct]

I can't give you any data on this. I'm not a coach or sport physiologist or anything.

Given the topic of this thread, I assumed you had some interest in improving your sprint.


And just so you know, in road racing, what many times would be considered a "sprint" is actually a sub 1000watt effort, due to conditions, tactics, and fatigue. It IS possible to "outsprint" another rider without ever going above 900watts. This happens all the time.

Road sprinting is a totally different game than the "5 second power emphasized track sprinting" which is in fact, REAL sprinting (match sprints, standing 250m, etc) (well, even many times on the track peak wattages in a 'sprint' will be much much lower than is possible during ideal conditions). So, all of these leads me back to what I said earlier, how 5 second power really doesn't mean jack for a road rider, in most cases.

 

[Steve_B]

So, all of these leads me back to what I said earlier, how 5 second power really doesn't mean jack for a road rider, in most cases.

I think that when you compare 5-sec efforts, you have to consider the circumstances. Just as a 20-minute effort in the middle of a hard road race may be less than what one could do "fresh", a 5-sec effort will suffer the same way. Comparison among 5-second efforts in similar circumstances is relevant. In addition, that diminished sprint that comes at the end of the race is still partially neuromuscular and the 5-second effort (fresh or not) is one marker of NM power.

So to say that 5-sec efforts "doesn't mean jack" is not correct, IMO.