My Power Profile is Embarrassing



From what I can tell you are all saying that your 5 sec power output has little bearing on most road races but is important in track...Sounds true enough except on the cases that swampy brought up of when you will need to burn a match it will come in handy.

But aside from that I am kind of tired of in any sport, the "genetics" reason. Always when someone can not reach their goals..."well its genetics"...I am sorry but you have to dig pretty deep before you should take out the genetics get out of jail card free. In my gym there was a guy who wore a shirt that said it all for me "F!%K GENETICS".

Lets talk Anthropology, if my sorry ass genes somehow survived this far to be passed down all the way to me than I am probably not that bad in the whole "natural selection" theory.

All the training is great but training of anything simply comes down to time and dedication...people should not fool themselves to believe they can go to a gym or ride a bike for a few months and suddenly all will change...it takes years, if you know that going in than I think genetics will play a really, really small role.

-js




john979 said:
To the ability that your genetic physiology enables you to...


To the ability that your genetic physiology enables you to...

You need to do some reseach regarding muscle myosin expression. Not all of us can be good at what we want to be, but we all can be good at what we are.

There is a growing trend away from "train your limiter" to "race your strength."
 
I forgot what the original arguement here is now. So, is it that you are saying that one can't significantly improve 5 sec power if they are naturally weak in that area? Is that the arguement here? Are you saying that some people just simple don't respond to neuromuscular training?

Ride with me for a few months and if you don't significantly improve your 5 sec power while putting in REAL 100% efforts, then I will believe you. I am going to assume you are untrained in this area to begin with, correct? Because that is the whole premise of this arguement, that some people can't significantly improve 5 sec power over their natural state?
 
velomanct said:
I forgot what the original arguement here is now. So, is it that you are saying that one can't significantly improve 5 sec power if they are naturally weak in that area? Is that the arguement here? Are you saying that some people just simple don't respond to neuromuscular training?

Ride with me for a few months and if you don't significantly improve your 5 sec power while putting in REAL 100% efforts, then I will believe you. I am going to assume you are untrained in this area to begin with, correct? Because that is the whole premise of this arguement, that some people can't significantly improve 5 sec power over their natural state?
Are you saying that some people just simple don't respond to neuromuscular training? -- Not the way others do.

I am going to assume you are untrained in this area to begin with, correct? -- I am not "untrained" in this area, my neuromuscular power is simply low compared to my aerobic power, which is typical for someone with my power profile.

Ride with me for a few months and if you don't significantly improve your 5 sec power while putting in REAL 100% efforts, then I will believe you. -- First, I could simply provide data. Second, my neuromuscular power is so low you probably would not believe I was putting out a 100% effort.

Do you realize that starting from a full stop requires a neuromuscular power effort? My 30-second intervals are not exactly noodling and include crank torques of nearly 1000 inch-pounds, which while not high for a sprinter indicates a significant neuromuscular power effort. Moreover, while not as hard, my VO2 Max interval starts also provide a neuromuscular power effort.
 
All I'm saying is that I believe I could help train someone who is weak in 5 sec power to possibly realize a level that was not previously thought of to be attainable.

If you want to disagree, that's fine.

There's no point in mentioning torque(hub), because that is very dependent on gear ratios. My best sprint recorded had a torque of only 400in lbs, but that was in a 53x14 gear at 31-38mph. Put it in a granny gear and go from a stop, and your torque will be much much higher, and likely result in a lower wattage.
 
He gave up already ... remember bad genetics...

-js

velomanct said:
All I'm saying is that I believe I could help train someone who is weak in 5 sec power to possibly realize a level that was not previously thought of to be attainable.

If you want to disagree, that's fine.

There's no point in mentioning torque(hub), because that is very dependent on gear ratios. My best sprint recorded had a torque of only 400in lbs, but that was in a 53x14 gear at 31-38mph. Put it in a granny gear and go from a stop, and your torque will be much much higher, and likely result in a lower wattage.
 
velomanct said:
All I'm saying is that I believe I could help train someone who is weak in 5 sec power to possibly realize a level that was not previously thought of to be attainable.

If you want to disagree, that's fine.

There's no point in mentioning torque(hub), because that is very dependent on gear ratios. My best sprint recorded had a torque of only 400in lbs, but that was in a 53x14 gear at 31-38mph. Put it in a granny gear and go from a stop, and your torque will be much much higher, and likely result in a lower wattage.
I gave you crank torque...

If you want to "believe" soemthing that is fine. I have not seen any data yet that disproves my point.

Let's point it more bluntly. Dr. Coggan and I have very, very similar power profiles. He could not improve his 5-second sprint power to above 1000 watts. You know something he doesn't?
 
john979 said:
I gave you crank torque...

If you want to "believe" soemthing that is fine. I have not seen any data yet that disproves my point.

Let's point it more bluntly. Dr. Coggan and I have very, very similar power profiles. He could not improve his 5-second sprint power to above 1000 watts. You know something he doesn't?
All I know is that I don't ride like ANYONE else out there that I've ever come across. I know how people train, I know the typical roadie mentallity when it comes to sprint training. I'm not saying that's you, but that is typical.

I love a challenge, when it's something that I love to begin with. Watts are just a number, and to me, that is not a lot. If you have the will and determination, you can definitely suprise yourself of what you are capable of.

I don't like the idea of being limited by genetics, although I believe it plays a role. Like I said above, I like to defy the norm. No one great has ever gotten to where they are without defying the norm.

And as I said before, your body is only capable of what your mind allows it. So by saying that "I will never go over 1000watts", well that's the best way to never go above 1000watts.

I also believe there are athletes out there who, if they really wanted to, could go above Dr. Coggan's power profile maximum of 24w/kg for 5 seconds on the bike. The reason that is the max is because there is no gold medal for 5 second power.
 
Do you know that road sprinters like Petacchi have a 5 second power in the 22w/kg range? 75kg and 1700w. Cipo could hit 1800 (I'm infering this from the claim he peaks at 2k) and he weighed, 80kg or so. That's 22.5w/kg.

What if they didn't do all that endurance work and focused on sprinting solely? I bet they could go over 24w/kg easily.
 
velomanct said:
Do you know that road sprinters like Petacchi have a 5 second power in the 22w/kg range? 75kg and 1700w. Cipo could hit 1800 (I'm infering this from the claim he peaks at 2k) and he weighed, 80kg or so. That's 22.5w/kg.

What if they didn't do all that endurance work and focused on sprinting solely? I bet they could go over 24w/kg easily.
Believe what you want to believe...
 
velomanct said:
I also believe there are athletes out there who, if they really wanted to, could go above Dr. Coggan's power profile maximum of 24w/kg for 5 seconds on the bike. The reason that is the max is because there is no gold medal for 5 second power.

Arguing against that conclusion is the fact that the (two-leg) maximal neuromuscular power of elite athletes is comparable across various sports, e.g., track cycling, BMX, powerlifting, athletics (track and field), etc.
 
acoggan said:
Arguing against that conclusion is the fact that the (two-leg) maximal neuromuscular power of elite athletes is comparable across various sports, e.g., track cycling, BMX, powerlifting, athletics (track and field), etc.
So it's safe to say that no human can produce more than 24w/kg for 5 seconds?


Awesome, I love a challenge.
 
velomanct said:
I sprint a lot because I like to. It gives me a thrill. I have neglected endurance work because it's boring to me and too painful for the return that it gives me.
Yep. This is why I am not going to become a tt guy so I can race my strengths. Crits are a blast and they make me smile afterwords.
 
velomanct said:
I can't give you any data on this. I'm not a coach or sport physiologist or anything.

Given the topic of this thread, I assumed you had some interest in improving your sprint.


And just so you know, in road racing, what many times would be considered a "sprint" is actually a sub 1000watt effort, due to conditions, tactics, and fatigue. It IS possible to "outsprint" another rider without ever going above 900watts. This happens all the time.

Road sprinting is a totally different game than the "5 second power emphasized track sprinting" which is in fact, REAL sprinting (match sprints, standing 250m, etc) (well, even many times on the track peak wattages in a 'sprint' will be much much lower than is possible during ideal conditions). So, all of these leads me back to what I said earlier, how 5 second power really doesn't mean jack for a road rider, in most cases.
Probably right in general. Having a bit of snap can't hurt though. I included my data because it is quantifiable. It shows that my figures really suck. Also, it gives me a way to try to measure improvement.
 
Malkmus said:
Yep. This is why I am not going to become a tt guy so I can race my strengths. Crits are a blast and they make me smile afterwords.
I did a group ride tonight, fast paced, first "race" type riding I've done this year.

It was okay, but pretty boring for me overall.

On the way back home I am feeling drained. But I come to a usual sprint spot where I launch it up a 3% grade after a small downhill. So I go for it, not expecting too much given how I felt. But I made a new record speed up it. Years ago I'd never imagine going that fast on that section, but now I'm doing it.

What do I do now? Raise the bar. That's how I ROLL.....

lol, but this what I mean, this is what I thrive on. I feel like I have this energy, and letting it out in a sprint, it's like a drug for me. Ever since I was little, I felt it. I love it.

It's not something I can access in any other way that sprinting on the bike.
 
velomanct said:
I did a group ride tonight, fast paced, first "race" type riding I've done this year.

It was okay, but pretty boring for me overall.

On the way back home I am feeling drained. But I come to a usual sprint spot where I launch it up a 3% grade after a small downhill. So I go for it, not expecting too much given how I felt. But I made a new record speed up it. Years ago I'd never imagine going that fast on that section, but now I'm doing it.

What do I do now? Raise the bar. That's how I ROLL.....

lol, but this what I mean, this is what I thrive on. I feel like I have this energy, and letting it out in a sprint, it's like a drug for me. Ever since I was little, I felt it. I love it.

It's not something I can access in any other way that sprinting on the bike.
This is the way us slow-twitch guys feel when we drop big sprinters on a long climb...
 
I really wish you luck!! Show they are wrong!

No matter the outcome you will be better than the ones who do not even try.

Now this is alot more fun that all the stats in the world. This is where the human element makes the difference.

I have seen some of the most amazing stuff in gyms, check out below of a girl who could bench 402 lbs and 148lbs...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wpw-NcYXDIQ

At 180lbs and on my best day I can get ... 300 max for 1 rep.

-js


velomanct said:
So it's safe to say that no human can produce more than 24w/kg for 5 seconds?


Awesome, I love a challenge.
 
velomanct said:
So it's safe to say that no human can produce more than 24w/kg for 5 seconds?

No, because at least one person has already done it. However, I'd say that it's safe to say that the maximum power than any human can produce for 5 s is ~25 W/kg. IOW, it's not simply a matter of making that one's goal, as you implied.

EDIT: Note that I am specifically excluding those who are "chemically enhanced".
 
So what number is safe in your opinion and as far as chemically enhanced are we talking strictly roids?

I am interested as I believe I have some good power with the weights so maybe I can see what I can do for 5 sec on the bike. Had done olympic style in my past life.

-js

acoggan said:
No, because at least one person has already done it. However, I'd say that it's safe to say that the maximum power than any human can produce for 5 s is ~25 W/kg. IOW, it's not simply a matter of making that one's goal, as you implied.

EDIT: Note that I am specifically excluding those who are "chemically enhanced".
 
jsirabella said:
So what number is safe in your opinion

As I said, ~25 W/kg (note the "~"), at least for now.

jsirabella said:
and as far as chemically enhanced are we talking strictly roids?

That's what first comes to mind, although other possiblities might exist (e.g., clenbuterol). In any case, the data that I've seen come from cyclists who are routinely tested by the UCI, WADA, etc., so there is at least some level of control.
 
acoggan said:
As I said, ~25 W/kg (note the "~"), at least for now.

I've noted these posts with regard to 5sec power with interest. My athletic background before cycling involved American football. In my involvement, I've come across numerous ballplayers in the 80-90kg area that run the 40yd dash (speed metric) in 4.3 secs and less, vertical jump 40" plus (explosiveness metric), and standing broad jump 10' plus (explosiveness again). I personally was not one of them - but close.

Dr. Coggan, in your experience what would you estimate this composite athlete's 5sec bicycle power in w/kg? Would this athlete come close to or exceed 25w/kg?
 

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