My Power Profile is Embarrassing

[velomanct]

Neglecting the different muscle contractions neccessary, I would think that 40yd time would be a good predictor of 5 sec power. And I too am interested to know what the best 40yd sprinters would be rated at as far as 5 sec power on a cycle.

 

[acoggan]

I've noted these posts with regard to 5sec power with interest. My athletic background before cycling involved American football. In my involvement, I've come across numerous ballplayers in the 80-90kg area that run the 40yd dash (speed metric) in 4.3 secs and less, vertical jump 40" plus (explosiveness metric), and standing broad jump 10' plus (explosiveness again). I personally was not one of them - but close.

Somewhat (but not entirely) as an aside: vertical jumping ability is more closely related to impulse (i.e., force x time) than it is to power (i.e., force x distance/time).

Dr. Coggan, in your experience what would you estimate this composite athlete's 5sec bicycle power in w/kg? Would this athlete come close to or exceed 25w/kg?

No idea of the exactly value, but again, there's no reason to believe that they would be over ~25 W/kg.

 

[tonyzackery]

Somewhat (but not entirely) as an aside: vertical jumping ability is more closely related to impulse (i.e., force x time) than it is to power (i.e., force x distance/time).

No idea of the exactly value, but again, there's no reason to believe that they would be over ~25 W/kg.

Not necessary to get pedantic on the issue, Doc. American football types (myself included) all understand the reasoning behind testing of the vertical jump, regardless if our understanding is just a little misguided...

Wasn't looking for an exact value; but maybe an educated guess. Nonetheless, I think this athlete could/would crank out some impressive 5sec. numbers in relation to athletes from other sports - cycling included.

Thanks for your opinion...

 

[velomanct]

Somewhat (but not entirely) as an aside: vertical jumping ability is more closely related to impulse (i.e., force x time) than it is to power (i.e., force x distance/time).
QUOTE]


This would explain why I can't jump but I can sprint.

I've noticed that it takes me a second or two into a maximal effort before I really feel like I am hitting peak forces. Almost as if my legs are slow to go maximal.

 

[jsirabella]

I still say they are wrong and you can see gains in 5 sec power because if it is anything like powerlifting most of your gains will come just from technique getting better especially if you are untrained and that can definitely be taught. Here is an article which is a part of a three month program to increase your size but the first month you solely work on technique/motor skills....same concept.

http://www.t-nation.com/readArticle.do?id=2082217

I always find it interesting how you can cross over between two disciplines which are totally polar opposite but you can use some of the same basic training fundamentals. Lately I have incorporated recovery workouts in my weight training which I picked up in an article and made sense simce recovery rides are the same concept.

Slow twitch, fast twitch .. the doc has cred so know guys like him who always talk in studies and such when it comes to weights also so I understand plus he has won alot of races but we are here to support and help each other not get into name calling...slow twitch guys vs. fast twitch??...on other boards they would call slow twitch guys the "pink dumbbell brigade"...they are excited when they get to those baby blues in the next few weeks....

-js

Somewhat (but not entirely) as an aside: vertical jumping ability is more closely related to impulse (i.e., force x time) than it is to power (i.e., force x distance/time).
QUOTE]


This would explain why I can't jump but I can sprint.

I've noticed that it takes me a second or two into a maximal effort before I really feel like I am hitting peak forces. Almost as if my legs are slow to go maximal.

 

[velomanct]

I'm actually a member on that site, they have a lot of good articles.

I do some weights, not a lot, I do find that it is hard to carry over gains from one discipline to another. Like, I'd increase my deadlift from 200 to 365, and I wouldn't notice a difference in sprints.

 

[jsirabella]

I know what you mean by the carry over of gains but the underlying concepts can be carried over. 1RM = FTP and work from there. In this case of 5 sec power, similar to the girl who can bench 400 at 148lbs, it is her technique and form that gives her the edge. She probably has that technique and form down to such a percise science similar to olympic lifters that it makes all the difference in her lift. There is a guy in NJ, forgot his name who benches some crazy numbers and if you look at him, he looks like joe average. It is his technique.

And yes I know when people see these numbers they run to the roids answer but trust me roids or not!!, you can not do these numbers without the motor skills trained to percision.

I am sure that can be the same way in a sprint, an untrained person can see nice gains once they get the technique and motor skills down.

-js

I'm actually a member on that site, they have a lot of good articles.

I do some weights, not a lot, I do find that it is hard to carry over gains from one discipline to another. Like, I'd increase my deadlift from 200 to 365, and I wouldn't notice a difference in sprints.

 

[velomanct]

I am sure that can be the same way in a sprint, an untrained person can see nice gains once they get the technique and motor skills down.

-js

Yeah and that's why I started posting on this thread. There are lots of gains to be made if people allow themselves to believe they can do it, and put their mind to it.

 

[acoggan]

Not necessary to get pedantic on the issue, Doc. American football types (myself included) all understand the reasoning behind testing of the vertical jump, regardless if our understanding is just a little misguided...

??

I never knew that sharing a tidbit of semi-relevant knowledge could be considered being "pedantic".

Wasn't looking for an exact value; but maybe an educated guess. Nonetheless, I think this athlete could/would crank out some impressive 5sec. numbers in relation to athletes from other sports - cycling included.

I'm sure they could. Heck, last time I saw Ed Coyle speak he shared a video of a member of the U of Texas women's basketball team cranking out tremendous power during Jim Martin's inertial load test, despite the fact that she didn't train for sprinting (in any form). Large, fast (twitch) muscles = high power.

 

[john979]

Yeah and that's why I started posting on this thread. There are lots of gains to be made if people allow themselves to believe they can do it, and put their mind to it.

I still haven't seen any data from any slow twitcher who improved their 5-sec power by greater than 20%. This post is specifically regarding an individual with high Type I fiber, not "anyone."

 

[PaulMD]

I still haven't seen any data from any slow twitcher who improved their 5-sec power by greater than 20%. This post is specifically regarding an individual with high Type I fiber, not "anyone."

I did it

But I am new to serious training since december 2006. After reading the "it's killing me" posts of Tyson I started to sport/cycle more. December 2006 I got my CycleOps Pro300PT. In Juli 2007 I got my first powertap for my roadbike. In the period july-september I had a personal best of 1008 watts for 5 seconds (with 73kg). At the end of september I started with weight training and as a warming up for my squat training (1 time/week) I also did 3 sprints on my Cycleops indoortrainer. During the winter my 5s power improved drastically (especially in the beginning).

At november 21th, 2007 I did 5s at 1207 watts (with 75kg)
At february 20th, 2008 I did 5s at 1215 watts (with 73kg)

And I don't consider myself as a fast twitcher I am still a non-sprinter and can only get those power numbers with a standing start. But lately I haven't done a single sprint as I stopped indoortraining and stopped squating.

 

[john979]

I did it

But I am new to serious training since december 2006. After reading the "it's killing me" posts of Tyson I started to sport/cycle more. December 2006 I got my CycleOps Pro300PT. In Juli 2007 I got my first powertap for my roadbike. In the period july-september I had a personal best of 1008 watts for 5 seconds (with 73kg). At the end of september I started with weight training and as a warming up for my squat training (1 time/week) I also did 3 sprints on my Cycleops indoortrainer. During the winter my 5s power improved drastically (especially in the beginning).

At november 21th, 2007 I did 5s at 1207 watts (with 75kg)
At february 20th, 2008 I did 5s at 1215 watts (with 73kg)

And I don't consider myself as a fast twitcher I am still a non-sprinter and can only get those power numbers with a standing start. But lately I haven't done a single sprint as I stopped indoortraining and stopped squating.

Paul;

I would respectfully submit that your results are consistent with somebody possessing a moderate amount of FT fiber who begins a program of "serious training." We are both approx. the same weight and I have never exceeded 900 watts, and I have 5+ years of data. Dr. Coggan's numbers are similar to mine, and he has 10 years of data.

 

[jsirabella]

How did I know you were going to say that.

As soon as anyone sees the 5 sec power numbers go up passed 1,000 than they must be fast twitch. It is a winless argument as it will always go back to you are fast twitch.

Maybe the doc or someone else can enlighten me and let me know how do we really no someone is fast twitch or slow twitch. It seems to me that everyone has both types. Is there a more scientific way to see if someone is more slow twitch than fast twitch other than his results from a physical test?

Can we actually take a sample from someone or xray someone and they can analyze it? I have no idea and just grasping here.

On a different note saw your post about your ailment and hope you will be able to recover. Do not much about John but hope it all works out.

-js



-js

Paul;

I would respectfully submit that your results are consistent with somebody possessing a moderate amount of FT fiber who begins a program of "serious training." We are both approx. the same weight and I have never exceeded 900 watts, and I have 5+ years of data. Dr. Coggan's numbers are similar to mine, and he has 10 years of data.

 

[PaulMD]

Maybe the doc or someone else can enlighten me and let me know how do we really no someone is fast twitch or slow twitch. It seems to me that everyone has both types. Is there a more scientific way to see if someone is more slow twitch than fast twitch other than his results from a physical test?

Can we actually take a sample from someone or xray someone and they can analyze it? I have no idea and just grasping here.

I can take a biopsy (or let a colleague do it) and sent it to the laboratory here

Then I will know the answer. Hmmm, probably I already know the answer and I am not going to puncture myself to know it for sure . Probably a low amount of fast twitch fibers and a lot of slow twitch.

I don't know the exact definition of a slowtwitcher but I am definitely more a slowtwitcher than a fasttwitcher. As a student I have done a 6month period of dedicated weight training/body building with a friend of mine. I composed a training and eating program for us both. He grew and became very strong. I increased my strength but didn't add any muscle mass.

I have to agree with velomanct that all systems are trainable, and performance can increase with 20%. Sprinters can train endurance. Endurance athletes can train their sprint performance. But the problem is that the slow twitch endurance athletes hardly follow a sprint specific training schedule. It's no fun to train hard and see that an untrained person is much faster or stronger than you. Some people can bench press 60kg without training for it, some can do even more without training. I started with 25kg and after 6 months of hard working I could bench press 50kg. And with that I was still the weakest person in the gym. it's just genetics and the composition of fast vs slow twitch muscle fibers.

An indication about slow vs fast twitch fibers is maybe the power profile. But the power profile is influenced a lot by training, so I think the training plan en the power profile com can give an indication.

 

[dc.cyclocross]

you can have a muscle biopsy.

http://home.hia.no/~stephens/biopsy.htm

this has been done on athletes in various sports and it's well established that proportions of fast vs slow twitch muscle vary in relation to the nature of the event.
e.g. 100m dash specialists have a lot of fast twitch while mararthon runners have a lot of slow twitch.

-marc

How did I know you were going to say that.

As soon as anyone sees the 5 sec power numbers go up passed 1,000 than they must be fast twitch. It is a winless argument as it will always go back to you are fast twitch.

Maybe the doc or someone else can enlighten me and let me know how do we really no someone is fast twitch or slow twitch. It seems to me that everyone has both types. Is there a more scientific way to see if someone is more slow twitch than fast twitch other than his results from a physical test?

Can we actually take a sample from someone or xray someone and they can analyze it? I have no idea and just grasping here.

On a different note saw your post about your ailment and hope you will be able to recover. Do not much about John but hope it all works out.

-js

 

[john979]

How did I know you were going to say that.

As soon as anyone sees the 5 sec power numbers go up passed 1,000 than they must be fast twitch. It is a winless argument as it will always go back to you are fast twitch.

Maybe the doc or someone else can enlighten me and let me know how do we really no someone is fast twitch or slow twitch. It seems to me that everyone has both types. Is there a more scientific way to see if someone is more slow twitch than fast twitch other than his results from a physical test?

Can we actually take a sample from someone or xray someone and they can analyze it? I have no idea and just grasping here.

On a different note saw your post about your ailment and hope you will be able to recover. Do not much about John but hope it all works out.

-js

Thanks for the comment regarding my health -- anyone know a good cardiologist with a sports medicine background in New York?

I am not a closed-mined person and I am not trolling here. I has also following's Paul's post regarding La Marmotte and from that, I know his FTP is 290 watts and current weight 68 kg or 4.26 w/kg.

Given a peak 5-sec power of 1215 watts and 68 kg, Paul does not have the power-profile of a pure "slow-twitcher." In fact, his comparative 5-sec power is greater than his FTP, indicating someone with "all-around" potential.

 

[PaulMD]

Thanks for the comment regarding my health -- anyone know a good cardiologist with a sports medicine background in New York?

I am not a closed-mined person and I am not trolling here. I has also following's Paul's post regarding La Marmotte and from that, I know his FTP is 290 watts and current weight 68 kg or 4.26 w/kg.

Given a peak 5-sec power of 1215 watts and 68 kg, Paul does not have the power-profile of a pure "slow-twitcher." In fact, his comparative 5-sec power is greater than his FTP, indicating someone with "all-around" potential.

Hi John, I know that you are not trolling, neither am I. I now start too realise that I am maybe not a pure slowtwitcher.

But I only question my FTP right now. My 20mp is now more than 332 watts, because during the second interval of a 2x20min training I managed to do 332 watts (that was on last sunday and the last interval was all out at the end).

I hope I can still do 1215w at 68-69kg but I am afraid my 5s power has dropped by stopping with the squat training. The 1215w is done at 73kg. Hmmz, I have to re-test my FTP and 5s power.

Maybe I am not the right person for a n=1 test. But I still think that with dedicated sprint training every slowtwitcher can improve a lot. But when the sprint is already trained for a long period, then improvements will be minimal. The same as a sprinter can improve FTP, but improve it less when he has trained it for a long period.

I read your mitral valve problem and wish you all the best. I hope you will find a good cardiologist soon. Did they find a course that caused the leakage? Can you still cycle or do you have also symptoms during normal activities or breathing problems when lying flat in bed?

 

[john979]

Hi John, I know that you are not trolling, neither am I. I now start too realise that I am maybe not a pure slowtwitcher.

But I only question my FTP right now. My 20mp is now more than 332 watts, because during the second interval of a 2x20min training I managed to do 332 watts (that was on last sunday and the last interval was all out at the end).

I hope I can still do 1215w at 68-69kg but I am afraid my 5s power has dropped by stopping with the squat training. The 1215w is done at 73kg. Hmmz, I have to re-test my FTP and 5s power.

Maybe I am not the right person for a n=1 test. But I still think that with dedicated sprint training every slowtwitcher can improve a lot. But when the sprint is already trained for a long period, then improvements will be minimal. The same as a sprinter can improve FTP, but improve it less when he has trained it for a long period.

I read your mitral valve problem and wish you all the best. I hope you will find a good cardiologist soon. Did they find a course that caused the leakage? Can you still cycle or do you have also symptoms during normal activities or breathing problems when lying flat in bed?

Paul;

It would be very interesting to see what your 5-sec power is right now. It is probably a bit lower due to your focus on FTP but I bet still above 1100. Nevertheless, your power profile does indicate more fast-twitch ability than either Dr. Coggan or myself and Dr. Coggan did not see significant improvement when intentionally trying to increase his neuromuscular power and I don't see significant improvement in my 30-second power when I do 30-second interval training. I actually use these intervals to help peak my FTP. So now we have N=3.

Data is important and as my personal knowledge evolves, I become more and more sensitive to science-based conclusions as opposed to belief or observational based ones, as much "conventional wisdom" is quite incorrect. For example, regarding VO2 Max, a very large study indicated that to a given controlled training program, there actually are responders and non-responders, the latter coming as a surprise to myself. More interesting is that there was nor correlation to initial VO2 Max and response, indicating that the genes that dictate VO2 Max are different from those which dictate VO2 Max response to training.

Currently, I am very interest in muscle fiber types and their influence on performance, IMHO an overlooked aspect which greatly influences limiters and is another reason why "anyone" can't do "anything".

Regarding my situation, I am actually glad I finally understand what is wrong with me and what has been wrong with me going back to 2005. 2003 was my first year with a PM and in 2003 and 2004 I saw a quite normal response to training. In 2005 things began to sputter a bit and I thought that was due to a new job and job-related stress. By the end of 2006 the job stress diminished and I refocused my training efforts, including purchasing a PT300 Pro. For three months I saw a steady FTP increase under a controlled TSS ramp with a CTL that was not particularly high, then out of nowhere my FTP dropped 10-15% and did not recover even with rest. I first thought my PT300 was defective but this was not the case.

The exact same scenario happened this year, almost to the day. This year I decided on full medical testing which revealed the MVR. There appears to be an acute side to it, exercise induced due to LVH. For now, I am going to completely back off on training, then determining if a medical solution is possible.

Thanks,

John

 

[Steve_B]

I don't see significant improvement in my 30-second power when I do 30-second interval training.

Neither do I. I tend to get more improvement in 30sec-3minutes from large doses of L5/VO2 training, actually.

I actually use these intervals to help peak my FTP.

Can you explain what you mean by that? Do you mean in the sense of traditional peaking strategies, a lot of sprints and AWC work, etc?

 

[PaulMD]

It would be very interesting to see what your 5-sec power is right now. It is probably a bit lower due to your focus on FTP but I bet still above 1100.

Yesterday I did two sprints. My best 5s power was 1115 watts, i will try to do some more sprints at the next easy L2 ride. Difference between the "winter" sprints and the sprints I did yesterday is: 1.) outdoor vs indoor and 2.) my weight dropped from approx 73kg to approx 68.5kg now. A drop from 16.6w/kg to 16.3 w/kg Hmmm, not bad. Last squat training en sprint training was in March this year.

Nevertheless, your power profile does indicate more fast-twitch ability than either Dr. Coggan or myself and Dr. Coggan did not see significant improvement when intentionally trying to increase his neuromuscular power and I don't see significant improvement in my 30-second power when I do 30-second interval training. I actually use these intervals to help peak my FTP. So now we have N=3.

I have never trained my 30s power. Last summer mostly endurance rides. And this winter: 2-3x/week cycling on my pro 300PT with L3/SST/L4 plus 3x/week weight training (2x upperbody and 1x squat plus sprints, max 5-10s). Now I am doing more specific work for improving my FTP. I will do L6 after La Marmotte. After La Marmotte I am going to focus on my timetrial performance. I don't need sprint power

Data is important and as my personal knowledge evolves, I become more and more sensitive to science-based conclusions as opposed to belief or observational based ones, as much "conventional wisdom" is quite incorrect. For example, regarding VO2 Max, a very large study indicated that to a given controlled training program, there actually are responders and non-responders, the latter coming as a surprise to myself. More interesting is that there was nor correlation to initial VO2 Max and response, indicating that the genes that dictate VO2 Max are different from those which dictate VO2 Max response to training.

That's a big suprise for me too. Do you have a link or a name of the first author and journal?

Currently, I am very interest in muscle fiber types and their influence on performance, IMHO an overlooked aspect which greatly influences limiters and is another reason why "anyone" can't do "anything".

Regarding my situation, I am actually glad I finally understand what is wrong with me and what has been wrong with me going back to 2005. 2003 was my first year with a PM and in 2003 and 2004 I saw a quite normal response to training. In 2005 things began to sputter a bit and I thought that was due to a new job and job-related stress. By the end of 2006 the job stress diminished and I refocused my training efforts, including purchasing a PT300 Pro. For three months I saw a steady FTP increase under a controlled TSS ramp with a CTL that was not particularly high, then out of nowhere my FTP dropped 10-15% and did not recover even with rest. I first thought my PT300 was defective but this was not the case.

The exact same scenario happened this year, almost to the day. This year I decided on full medical testing which revealed the MVR. There appears to be an acute side to it, exercise induced due to LVH. For now, I am going to completely back off on training, then determining if a medical solution is possible.

I wish you all the best and I hope there is a solution.