my theory on landis' reading

[SaintAndrew]

i think he got a blood transfusion (his own blood)after stage 16, and there were high test levels from him using when he had it withdrawn, and him and his "team (whoever helps him with that kinda ****) forgot to take it into account.


this would explain both why he had an extremely good day after an extremely bad one, and why he showed testosterone abnormalities, since we're all agreed he didn't take test once after the stage to become superman.

 

[Bro Deal]

i think he got a blood transfusion (his own blood)after stage 16, and there were high test levels from him using when he had it withdrawn, and him and his "team (whoever helps him with that kinda ****) forgot to take it into account.

Performance wise it makes sense, but I am not sure about the timing of the transfusion. Blood doping plans that have been revealed show transfusions being done half way throught a GT or right before critical stages of the race. The most obvious times would be the first rest day right before the Pyrenees or the rest day before the Alps.

With the current legal environment in France it would seem to be a wild and haphazard plot to arrange for an unplanned transfusion within a few hours. But maybe they already had the blood in France for use before the final ITT and it was just a matter of moving up the transfusion date. The motorcycles Vaughters talked about would just make a discrete stop at Landis' hotel.

 

[dome]

i think he got a blood transfusion (his own blood)after stage 16, and there were high test levels from him using when he had it withdrawn, and him and his "team (whoever helps him with that kinda ****) forgot to take it into account.


this would explain both why he had an extremely good day after an extremely bad one, and why he showed testosterone abnormalities, since we're all agreed he didn't take test once after the stage to become superman.

The ratio of testosterone/epitestosterone is used as an indication of something wrong because the half-life of testosterone is relatively short compared to epitestosterone. Using "old" blood would give higher epitestosterone values which is the opposite of what is being reported.

 

[dexjava]

The ratio of testosterone/epitestosterone is used as an indication of something wrong because the half-life of testosterone is relatively short compared to epitestosterone. Using "old" blood would give higher epitestosterone values which is the opposite of what is being reported.

Just another reason not to listen to all the pseudo-scientists on this board.

 

[SaintAndrew]

The ratio of testosterone/epitestosterone is used as an indication of something wrong because the half-life of testosterone is relatively short compared to epitestosterone. Using "old" blood would give higher epitestosterone values which is the opposite of what is being reported.

half life in the liver or half life in terms of breaking down under the earth's atmosphere?

if it broke down that fast just suspended in fluid it wouldn't be so effective for all those roidheads at the gym that shoot it.

 

[patch70]

The ratio of testosterone/epitestosterone is used as an indication of something wrong because the half-life of testosterone is relatively short compared to epitestosterone. Using "old" blood would give higher epitestosterone values which is the opposite of what is being reported.

That blood would have been frozen.

 

[Felt_Rider]

Since day 1 of this report the troubling factor for me is the link between accusation of testosterone and the timing of the events. I have never experienced (either personal or by obeservation of fellow athletes) testosterone to work that quickly for recovery and I am skeptical about testosterone being beneficial in an endurance event. My mind started scanning other pharmacological possibilities for a better application. (Testosterone seems to be the marker showing up on the sample(s), but in my experience it seems like something else had to be in the mix for this to make sense.)

I do believe testosterone is very beneficial for recovery, but only after a period of time and steady administration. Patches are not effective enough for delivery of enough medication to be of much advantage. Risks vs. Performance. It's not worth using transdermal patches and suspension (injection) has a shorter half life, but again not a great benefit as a single injection vs. the risks of getting caught. Then again not everyone is as savvy, but you would think the pros would know their stuff.

However, something just hit me about another possibility and that is the potential that GH or IGF can have on recovery at a much faster pace than testosterone and it is virtually undetectable.

I could be wrong, but GH would make more sense in the recovery puzzle if one were going to do those type of things.
Disclaimer: I know it seems like I am making an accusation, but I am only looking at puzzling technical issues and not assuming guilt or innocence.

Link 1

Link 2

Link 3

 

[jyeager]

Since day 1 of this report the troubling factor for me is the link between accusation of testosterone and the timing of the events. I have never experienced (either personal or by obeservation of fellow athletes) testosterone to work that quickly for recovery and I am skeptical about testosterone being beneficial in an endurance event. My mind started scanning other pharmacological possibilities for a better application. (Testosterone seems to be the marker showing up on the sample(s), but in my experience it seems like something else had to be in the mix for this to make sense.)

I do believe testosterone is very beneficial for recovery, but only after a period of time and steady administration. Patches are not effective enough for delivery of enough medication to be of much advantage. Risks vs. Performance. It's not worth using transdermal patches and suspension (injection) has a shorter half life, but again not a great benefit as a single injection vs. the risks of getting caught. Then again not everyone is as savvy, but you would think the pros would know their stuff.

However, something just hit me about another possibility and that is the potential that GH or IGF can have on recovery at a much faster pace than testosterone and it is virtually undetectable.

I could be wrong, but GH would make more sense in the recovery puzzle if one were going to do those type of things.
Disclaimer: I know it seems like I am making an accusation, but I am only looking at puzzling technical issues and not assuming guilt or innocence.

Link 1

Link 2

Link 3

I agree, but they would know that too. Landis wasn't doping alone, he was under the supervision of an astute Dr.
There was still some sort of fluke mistake in his doping that got him caught. That's how they can be so genuinely surprised when they fail a test.

for instance, they might take samples just before the race and administer the right amount of epitest to put him within limits.

He never expected to get caught, therefore the secondary test to check for artificial testosterone wasn't expected. I do think that he got a daily injection of test suspension throughout the tour, but only in dosages that would result in a total testosterone reading within the normal ranges...just higher than normal for him.

 

[SaintAndrew]

However, something just hit me about another possibility and that is the potential that GH or IGF can have on recovery at a much faster pace than testosterone and it is virtually undetectable.

I could be wrong, but GH would make more sense in the recovery puzzle if one were going to do those type of things.
Disclaimer: I know it seems like I am making an accusation, but I am only looking at puzzling technical issues and not assuming guilt or innocence.

i've not really found alot of evidence for or against igf-1 administration. however you're def. right that GH is popular among athletes. fuentes was caught handing it out to his "patients."

also i don't know why exactly, but i read on a site about epitestosterone that GH use throws off the test-epitest ratio.

 

[DiabloScott]

i've not really found alot of evidence for or against igf-1 administration. however you're def. right that GH is popular among athletes. fuentes was caught handing it out to his "patients."

also i don't know why exactly, but i read on a site about epitestosterone that GH use throws off the test-epitest ratio.

Do you have any idea why synthesizing testosterone would create a preference for different isotopes of carbon than natural testosterone? Chemically of course, C12, C13, and C14 are all identical so it must be some physical reason related to mass but I would never have guessed such a thing could happen. Understanding that process might open new avenues of denial.

 

[karlotta]

Do you have any idea why synthesizing testosterone would create a preference for different isotopes of carbon than natural testosterone? Chemically of course, C12, C13, and C14 are all identical so it must be some physical reason related to mass but I would never have guessed such a thing could happen. Understanding that process might open new avenues of denial.

Synthetic testosterone has its origins in plant-based steroids... natural testosterone is of course animal-based. That's the basic difference that allows for the carbon signatures to be distinguished.

Here's an excerpt from an older article that describes the development of the GC-IRMS tests. SOURCE link here: http://www.hero.ac.uk/uk/culture___sport/archives/2003/footballs_s_darker_side5196.cfm

Detecting the dopers

Researchers at Dundee University have devised a new test to combat the growing problem of blood doping the artificial distortion of the body's natural chemistry or physiology. The researchers have found a way of distinguishing natural testosterone from pharmaceutically manufactured testosterone, which is abused by some athletes to build muscle for strength and speed.

Professor Mike Rennie, of the School of Life Sciences, believes the new technique will make the practice much easier to expose. He explained: “It is relatively easy to detect synthetic anabolic steroids, which have been used for years by cheating athletes to increase their muscle bulk all that is needed is a small urine sample and a relatively simple piece of analytical equipment, a gas chromatograph.

“The cheats and their advisors realised this and started to use testosterone in the chemical form it is found in the body. They expected that it would act identically to the normal hormone and would be impossible for drug testers to tell apart from natural testosterone, letting the extra dope they take go undetected.

He continued: “Unfortunately for them however, the testosterone they take is made by pharmaceutical companies from plant steroids the same steroids used to make the birth control pill - and plants and animals have very different ways of making steroids. Both sets of steroids are marked with a distinctive 'signature'. We are developing a method, using a very sensitive mass spectrometer, which can distinguish between the natural signatures carried by the carbon and hydrogen atoms in normal bodily testosterone and the testosterone which is made from plant material.”

WADA, the World Anti-Doping Agency, has awarded a grant of US$175,000 to Rennie's team, to perfect the new technique.

 

[limerickman]

Being facetious : the Guadian Newspaper confirmed today that 18 tonnes of urine were gathered during the 2006 TDF for dope checks!

 

[DiabloScott]

Synthetic testosterone has its origins in plant-based steroids... natural testosterone is of course animal-based. That's the basic difference that allows for the carbon signatures to be distinguished.

1. So plants and animals produce testosterone through different mechanisms, that's not surprising. What is surprising is that the difference is not chemical, but rather physical (or maybe radiological?). I can't see how such a process could favor inclusion or exclusion of one isotope over the other... but then organic chem was about my worst subject.

2. I predict an increase in the use of pig testosterone after this.

 

[SaintAndrew]

1. So plants and animals produce testosterone through different mechanisms, that's not surprising. What is surprising is that the difference is not chemical, but rather physical (or maybe radiological?). I can't see how such a process could favor inclusion or exclusion of one isotope over the other... but then organic chem was about my worst subject.

2. I predict an increase in the use of pig testosterone after this.

lol GH used to be taken from stiffs, and insulin was taken from pigs i believe so entirely possible (actually pig insulin is more resilient than sythesized insulin and thus preferred by some old diabetics)

i don't know why the isotope vary either, but a little background (you prolly know this) but steroids are a type of lipid like a fat or oil, and cholesterol is one of them. something like coconut oil for example contains alot of cholesterol and might be easy to convert chemically to test. i would guess they use a process similar to hydrogenation (where an unsaturated lipid is chemically changed into a saturated one (basically)).

who knows though it may be more like the process for making insulin where pieces of nucleic acid are "cut and pasted" into the genetic material of bacteria and allowed to mulitply about ten quadrillion times and then harvested.

i am assuming it's like hydrogenation because they say it comes from plant steroids.

btw i heard somewhere the isotope variation has to d o with photosynthesis and the way animals process the the steroids when injested- maybe it releases energy or the steroids are digested then reformed with other isotopes.

 

[patch70]

Since day 1 of this report the troubling factor for me is the link between accusation of testosterone and the timing of the events. I have never experienced (either personal or by obeservation of fellow athletes) testosterone to work that quickly for recovery and I am skeptical about testosterone being beneficial in an endurance event.

I suspect that he took a lot more than just testosterone (eg blood, ???some sort of amphetamine, insulin, growth hormone), but only got caught for the testosterone.

 

[dexjava]

Being facetious : the Guadian Newspaper confirmed today that 18 tonnes of urine were gathered during the 2006 TDF for dope checks!

Not reported in the news, was the fact that over half of that was mine.

 

[mitosis]

i think he got a blood transfusion (his own blood)after stage 16, and there were high test levels from him using when he had it withdrawn, and him and his "team (whoever helps him with that kinda ****) forgot to take it into account.


this would explain both why he had an extremely good day after an extremely bad one, and why he showed testosterone abnormalities, since we're all agreed he didn't take test once after the stage to become superman.

That was hypothesised by an australian doctor involved in sports medicine and reported in the Sydney Morning Herald 2 days ago.

It explains the lift in performance but fell short of explaining how that would alter T:E or the presence of exogenous T.

 

[mitosis]

Do you have any idea why synthesizing testosterone would create a preference for different isotopes of carbon than natural testosterone? Chemically of course, C12, C13, and C14 are all identical so it must be some physical reason related to mass but I would never have guessed such a thing could happen. Understanding that process might open new avenues of denial.

Different densities.
Different ionisation energy.
Different atomic radius.

 

[mitosis]

1. So plants and animals produce testosterone through different mechanisms, that's not surprising. What is surprising is that the difference is not chemical, but rather physical (or maybe radiological?). I can't see how such a process could favor inclusion or exclusion of one isotope over the other... but then organic chem was about my worst subject.

2. I predict an increase in the use of pig testosterone after this.

Animals produce testosterone from steroid like substances in plants (cholesterol).

 

[Bro Deal]

Different densities.
Different ionisation energy.
Different atomic radius.

The C13 atoms are heavier than C12 atoms. They move slower so C12 atoms are slightly more likely to react than C13 atoms in some chemical reactions. Over time the plant or animal comes to consist of a slightly smaller ratio of C13 to C12 as found in the environment. The chemical reactions in plants occur slower than animals, so the motion of the C13 as compared to the C12 is more important. Plants end up with a smaller C13:C12 ratio than animals do.

At least that is what I got from looking up "isotopic fractionalization."