Necessity of 105 level components? and some beginner questions

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by plutov, Jun 6, 2004.

  1. lokstah

    lokstah New Member

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    So we are writing the cycling tech bible! Silly me. The authoring process should provide you with plenty of pissing contests.

    How about we define reliable shifting? I'd say -- and this is just me, so when you engrave your dogma into this book you're writing, be sure to lay all kinds of disclaimers on this passage as being 'NOT GOSPEL' -- reliable shifting inspires higher confidence in the rider that a simple, easy action in the shifter assembly will be met with a quick, smooth, and predictable response in the corresponding derailleur. Reliable shifting doesn't leave the rider concerned that his/her shifter action will result in a slow shift, or a half-shift, an over-shift, or a non-shift, or place the chain in a position where it does no good at all.

    Alright, captain. Now where are we, aside from clearly engaged in a pissing contest? The fact is, a concept like "reliable shifting" is purely relative. As for where any piece of machinary falls on a scale like this one is up for either scientific statistical analysis, OR the subjective experiences of folks like yourself and yours truly. In my experience, Tiagra and Sora satisfy the above definition to a lesser degree than 105. It's all relative.

    I wouldn't asses Tiagra as an unreliable drivetrain, (which should be ridiculously clear by now) because a) the relative nature of the term wouldn't allow it, and b) I don't have a problem with Tiagra -- something I've stated countless times. Now stop acting like a punk kid, and start acting like a grouchy old man again. Sheesh.
     


  2. boudreaux

    boudreaux New Member

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    And maybe that is more a function of proper setup,adjustment and technique,than whether it's Tiagra or DA??
     
  3. lokstah

    lokstah New Member

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    Of course. Any thorough assesment of how a system performs needs to take into account setup, maintinence, technique, fine-tuning, and the respective difficulty/predicatbilty associated with each (particularly with cycling gear, which many people setup, fine tune, and maintain on their own).

    If a given rider has fewer problems with one system over another, that's worth considering. What are the system's tolerances for care or poorer care? How high is the threshold for the level of caution, care, and learning a system requires to attain a certain level of reliability? Is the care/ease/perfomance/learning-curve balance point placed well?

    There's a subjective human response to these factors -- I'm baffled by how stubbornly you pursue absolutes in these matters and try to grind them into others' foreheads.
     
  4. mjw_byrne

    mjw_byrne New Member

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    Of course it has to do with proper setup and adjustment, but it ought to be patently obvious to you that lokstah is talking about relative performance levels of different groups, all other things being equal. Or did you imagine that for some reason, he was comparing a perfectly set up Sora group and a crappily set up Tiagra group? You can sit there and pick holes in what people say till you're blue in the face, and all you're doing is clogging up the forum and confusing the issue. No-one doubts you know what you're talking about, so stop picking fights and acting so insecure and just settle for being helpful.

    As regards the original question: Shimano point out on their website that the 105, Ultegra and 9-speed DA groups all have the same spec (i.e. the only differences are in materials, quality of craftsmanship, weight etc), so getting a 105-level setup ensures that you have a no-hassle component-by-component upgrade path right up to full DA. Also, even if you are just a beginner and you feel that 105 is "too good" for you, I think it's economically sensible to buy a bike a little above your level. You will naturally improve, and you don't want to be stuck in a few months time with a bike which you feel is not up to scratch. Good luck!
     
  5. lokstah

    lokstah New Member

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    Thanks Byrne, and well said.

    Again.
     
  6. boudreaux

    boudreaux New Member

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    Well, he DID say Tiagra shifting was less reliable.I'm still trying to get my head around that one. As for what Shimano says, and the 'no hassle component by component upgrade path right to DA, only means that Tiagra uses a square taper crank/BB rather than the octalink of 105,ultegra and DA. Now with the new DA crank/BB I guess you would have to say even the 105 and ultegra don't have a 'no hassle' upgrade path...LOL.
     
  7. mjw_byrne

    mjw_byrne New Member

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    Well OK, so what if he said Tiagra's shifting was less reliable? Compared to 105, it is. Everyone who reads this forum will know exactly what he means, despite the fact that coming up with a rock-solid definition is next to impossible (it's also pointless unless you're doing a statistical study of some sort). Everyone on this forum also knows that 1 + 1 = 2, but properly defining the terms "1", "2" and "+" is something that only university-level mathematicians know how to do.

    As for upgrade path, I was clearly talking about 9-speed DA, not 10-speed. And while I'm sure mixing and matching is trouble-free in the vast majority of cases, it's nice to have a bit of paper on which Shimano says that the parts are definitely interchangable. This is all just info that might be relevant to the original poster, not a treatise on manufacturer's specs and how much they matter, so do please spare us the usual impassioned "specs are conservative" spiel.
     
  8. lokstah

    lokstah New Member

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    Hooey. Well, at least, an inaccurate quote out of context, conceptually stripped down to nearly nothing.

    In the context of a series of long posts explaining that Tiagra was a decent drivetrain capable of serving many riders well and for a long time, I explained that I felt the performance difference between Tiagra and 105 was generally noticable. Even so, I never spoke in absolutes, and I always offered the caveat that these terms are relative, not set in stone, and essentially based on my experience.

    I hold firm to that assesment, and feel that it was fair, cautious, and personal -- and I would share it again with a rider asking for my take on the two drivtrains. There's an undeniable subjectivity to a consideration like this one, and by trying to deny that again, and again, and again, you come across as a man on a mission to be contrary, rather than to share good advice. And it makes me sad... :(
     
  9. lokstah

    lokstah New Member

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    And here's the quote, for those obsessed enough with forum drama to care.
    Again, imbedded in a relative endorsement of Tiagra.
     
  10. boudreaux

    boudreaux New Member

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    That's a double barge load of hooey. How is tiagera shifting less 'reliable' than 105, and explain how everyone knows exactly what he means. That's just drivel. The fact that Tiagra doesn't present a 'seamless' upgrade path due to having a different crank/BB is is insignificant and just turd polishing. Sora is a different story,but we've been there.
     
  11. boudreaux

    boudreaux New Member

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    That is a pretty solid black and white statement,pandered as fact. And it's just hooey.
     
  12. mjw_byrne

    mjw_byrne New Member

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    lokstah has (several times) explained perfectly well what is generally meant when one describes one group's shifting performance as more or less reliable than that of another group. Want me to re-re-iterate? When you shift a 105 drivetrain, it is likely to feel smoother than shifting a Tiagra drivetrain. It is less likely to overshift or fail to shift or throw the chain. It is less likely to shift when it's not supposed to. It is less likely that the chain will skip when you stamp really hard on the pedals. It is less likely that you will suffer from chain rub. It is likely to be quieter in operation. It is likely to shift faster. All this is assuming the frame, wheels etc. are all the same and that both drivetrains are properly set up. This really, really ought to be very obvious and easy to understand.

    As for the "insignificant turd polishing", if the person who the comment is aimed at (the original poster, not you) has a problem with it, they are perfectly free to say so. But I'm clearly not dispensing grossly misleading or incorrect advice, so I don't see why you'd have a problem with me making that passing observation.
     
  13. lokstah

    lokstah New Member

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    Offered as advice, and in context, hardly "black and white." Even if it were the least bit confusing in that regard, I've spent plenty of time and posts clarifying my position. You're clearly just in this for the fight -- nothing matters more than your own uncompromising dogma.

    In the matter of shifting performance between Tiagra and 105, you've had absolutely nothing to say, not even so much as relating that you've enjoyed your time on Tiagra and that you find it dreamy. You've only gone out of your way to cut me down with a "because I say so" disregard for helping anyone out. If your position, based on experience, observations, word of mouth, or your tenure directing quality assurance at Shimano, differs from mine, than simply offer it up and cut the terse, combative nonsense.

    You've never done a single soul on these forums a pinch of good by simply cutting someone else down with a cry of "hooey." It's a sure-fire way to pick a fight, and not much else.
     
  14. boudreaux

    boudreaux New Member

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    This is worse than hooey.It's BS!!
     
  15. boudreaux

    boudreaux New Member

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    No, what matters is that some moron or 2 or 3 will come along,read it as a black and white statement from a long time poster ,take it as fact and start spreading it like manure. Pretty soon it becomes street myth. I use everything from old school rsx to DA and Record, and 'reliable' shifting is in the setup and adjustment rather the logo on the component.There is absolutely NOTHING unreliable about the lower end stuff if set up properly. A click of the shifter gets you a shift,and if a cog or chainring is missed, it's the nut behind the wrench,not the level of the group causing it. A badly adjusted DA setup is just as sketchy as a tiagra one. At least with tiagra, one has not wasted as much money.
     
  16. lokstah

    lokstah New Member

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    Why are you interpreting this as something in debate? Byrne was laying out a definition -- a definition of the relative nature of a more refined drivtrain over another. There's no claim being made that Tiagra, by contrast, is prone to over-shifts, mis-shifts, bad chain-riding and general farting-out.

    These terms are only being employed at all because you requested a standard for good shifting. It's not a description of a particular drivetrain; it's a template for relative comparisons between drivetrains.

    And again, in that sense, I do feel that 105 compares more favorably, and you, on the other hand, have done absolutely nothing to advance anyone's knowledge (yea or nay) in this regard. If anything I've said about the subject is disagreeable, what good have you done anyone by just cutting myself or Byrne down? Don't you have a single helpful thing to say?
     
  17. lokstah

    lokstah New Member

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    And your nonsense has improved the crisis how? You've made similarly obnoxious forum visitors chuckle, and that's about it. What's particularly enlightening about hooey?

    In the end, I wonder: how many other visitors to this thread would contend that my take on Tiagra is one of "black and white" condemnation, and that yours is anything but combative.

    I really wonder.
     
  18. boudreaux

    boudreaux New Member

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    Read it again! It's BS.
     
  19. boudreaux

    boudreaux New Member

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    Read it again.It's BS
     
  20. boudreaux

    boudreaux New Member

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    Read it again.He's specifically comparing 105 to Tiagra.It's BS.
     
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